Le bhur dtoil,inis dom dá mbeadh an ceart agam le ceann ar bith de na habairtí seo a leanas:

"Tá brón / aiféala orm a bheith ag cur isteach / bodhrú ort"

"Tá brón / aiféala orm as cur isteach ort"

"Gabh mo leithscéal as bodhrú ort"

Gaibh mo leithscéal/gaibhim pardún agat as bheith ag cur isteach ort.

Seachain "bodhrú": "Ná héisteodh sibh in ainm Dé! tháim bodhraithe agaibh!"

'as a bheith do do bhodhrú' I think Séasán but "wait for confirmation"

or 'tá aiféala orm faoi bheith ag cur isteach ort'

or 'mo leithscéal faoi bheith ag....' etc.

"bodhrú" is bothering someone to distraction or being a right pain in the backside and is much stronger than simply disturbing someone while they are working, reading, etc.

I'd avoid "Tá brón orm" here: If you were truly sorry, you wouldn't do it!

I second Ailín on "bodhrú" - it is severe.

Buíochas libh go léir as bhur gcabhair.

I wouldn't myself describe it as "severe" here as in this context it can be said in a natural and jokey way and can be more than appropriate.

Anyways it's down to the individual and how they speak and put themselves across in real life :)

The question to be asked is this: how would a good Gaeltacht speaker define "bodhrú"?

Nope. The question to be asked instead :- Is there a good Gaeltacht speaker out there who might use occasionally use 'do do bhodhrú' in this context?

How a good Gaeltacht speaker would define 'bodhrú' as an entity is a separate issue.

Well, off you go then and let us know when you get an answer.

As nice as that would be I have no means no more than anyone to do a Gaeltacht wide survey. Best I can do is use my imagination and best judgment and I'm sticking with an open mind on this one.

Well, it's good to know that you're keeping an open mind but of course whatever good Gaeltacht speakers say is obviously the one to go for irrespective of native Anglophones' colourful imagination.

That goes without saying. I know my place where that is concerned. When I say open mind I mean I'm open to the chance that one or two Gaeltacht speakers might use that expression, here and there. Cheers

"Gaibhim pardún agat as do bhodhrú"? Is this what you are referring to, Sinéad?

That one has a different ring to it. I was talking about phrases with 'as a bheith ... ' rather than an all out 'as do bhodhrú'..

When you use the 'as a bheith' to me that softens the tone. Again, just my own point of view.

"When you use the 'as a bheith' to me that softens the tone. Again, just my own point of view."

- Where did you hear that?

Sinéad,
Do you think any good native speaker would say "tá aiféala orm faoi bheith ag cur isteach ort" ; "I am remorseful for inconveniencing you"?

Yes I do but bear in mind there are loads of ways of saying this. For example I also offered 'mo leithscéal faoi..'. And I myself would probably just say 'Níl mé ag iarraidh cur isteach ort ach...'

Realistically do you think a native speaker would say 'Gaibhim pardún agat as bheith ag cur isteach ort'?

As in, if you're implying that 'aiféala' is a bit off, then your own 'pardún' is just as questionable in a real life context.

There is a clear difference:

Gabh mo leithscéal/Gabhaim pardún agat is asking for permission

Tá brón/aiféala orm is expressing remorse for something already done

"Excuse me" and "I'm sorry" have come to mean the same thing in English; but not (yet) in Irish.

Aiféala also means 'regret' and 'regret' is the meaning here, rather than remorse.

(Message edited by sineadw on October 06, 2010)

But who would say 'gaibhim pardún agat' in this context. It's extremely formal.

Ultimately this is a lead up sentence as you already intend to ask something/interrupt the person, etc. So it is perfectly legitimate to regret having to do this as it's already in the process of being done and an action already decided on. I can hear a native speaker saying this. Again there are other options.

"But who would say 'gaibhim pardún agat' in this context. It's extremely formal."

- No it isn't "extremely" formal. And the context here is formal anyway. If I knock on my boss's door looking for a loan of his stapler or to discuss a problem, "Gaibhim pardún agat" is what I would say. See Dinneen: gabhaim pardún agat, I beg your pardon, excuse me. The expression is probably most common in Munster. Aiféala is a much stronger word. Dinneen has "aithmhéala: regret, compunction, sorrow, contrition". Ó Dónaill has "aiféala: regret, remorse, shame, shamefulness". Ó Dónaill also has "aiféaltas: shame, embarrassment; Tháinig aiféaltas orm gur labhair mé; I felt ashamed that I had spoken".

Beidh aiféala orainn ar fad mar a leanann muid ag dul thart sa bhfáinne fí seo gan leithscéal...

Aiféala is widely used in Conamara so maybe this is where the leap of faith is missing. It's hardly ever used to do with shame, etc. although it's in the dictionary and one of the meanings.

And no if you're knocking on your boss's door gaibhim pardún agat to me is extreme end of formal in my view. Though he might be flattered by the request.

It is a matter of personal taste and how you carry yourself.

Ah you're right Aonghus. I'll repeat myself no more.

That may be a local use in parts of Conamara. Neither of us though can comment on Conamara as we are not from there. Perhaps Bríd can help us out here?

As for "Gaibhim pardún agat", I consulted with a colleague who is an expert on Corca Dhuibhne Irish and he disagrees with your view that it is formal in the extreme.

You have to match what he's asking too. "I'm sorry to bother you" in my neck of the woods is somewhat informal. It already assumes that I am familiar with the person in some way. I would never say that to a stranger. In those cases I use "excuse me", a version of "pardon me". Maybe that is a peculiarity of my area. We should try to match that somewhat informal register. Another option, perhaps, is something like: "Tá súil agam nach stró é ..."

The point here is that while "I'm sorry" has come, in English, to be synonymous with "Excuse me" or "I beg your pardon" it has not in Irish.

Just as "Es tut mir Leid" in German is not the same as "Entschuldigung"

But I thought that "tá brón/aiféala orm" had been ruled out already. Maybe not.

It has. I thought you wanted to reintroduce it.

Gabh mo leithscéal/Gabhaim pardún agat

is not, to my ears and in my experience, very formal. (And Ailín produced another suppiorting opinion on that above)

There isn't the same gap in the register in Irish which in English has been filled with the likes of "Sorry for..."

Eh I wasn't aware that tá aiféala orm had been ruled out.

gabh mo leithscéal is not as formal as gabhaim pardún agat either and it's not right to put them in together here. they mean different things.

of course the difference is there, as in, in English you'd say 'sorry' if you're passing by someone in a queue, etc. and you wouldn't use 'tá aiféala orm' here.

But context is different here. I'm not directly translating i'm sorry. Only if it fits.

(Message edited by sineadw on October 06, 2010)

quote:

gabh mo leithscéal is not as formal as gabhaim pardún agat either and it's not right to put them in together here. they mean different things.

I'd dispute that. They are identical.

You'll find the evidence for example in

http://corpas.focloir.ie

where both are used in a range of similar contexts.

as per Ó Dónaill:

gabh mo leithscéal: Excuse me
gabhaim pardún agat: I beg your pardon

There is a distinct difference in tone here despite how they may be interchangeable in some contexts.

Huh?

You appear to be basing your judgement of the tone on the English translation, and in particular on your idiolect.

I see no difference in tone in English or in Irish between these two equivalents.

Perhaps it's an age thing...

I am not basing my judgment on the tone of the English translation at all. And it's got nothing to do with my own way of expression. I'm basing it on the subtle but distinct differences in the Irish versions.

Could be wrong about tá aiféala orm but I'm not going as far as to rule it out. I wouldn't have made such an assumption had the roles been reversed.

I also asked my colleague about "Gaibh mo leithscéal" and whether one would say that in everyday speech, for example, if you knocked on the boss's door wishing to enter or asking someone in a pub where the toilet is. He said yes it is used that way in Corca Dhuibhne as is "Gaibhim pardún agat" in the same situations.

Basing information on the English versions is risky. To Seán above, I note that Americans tend to be a bit more formal in general when speaking to strangers than we would be here. I would say "Sorry" in almost all situations but I notice Americans will say stuff like "Excuse me, sir/maam", "Oh, I do beg your pardon" which I would never say. The use of "Sir/Maam" in particular is very distinctive. Also note that native Irish speakers don't use "please" half as much as Anglophones do. The same seems to be true of many other languages. When I went to Italy first I had to stop myself saying "Grazie" and "Per favore" in every single sentence!

I suspect Aonghus is right about Sinéad falling back on her own inferences. I say again it would be interesting to see what people in Conamara or Gaoth Dobhair would say.

(Message edited by Brídmhór on October 06, 2010)

(Message edited by Brídmhór on October 06, 2010)

I'm not saying anybody is wrong here. But this is how I'd say it.

tá aiféala orm- means regret mostly.
Tá aiféala orm gur oscail mé mo bhéal.
You get it formally in a letter. "Tá aiféala orm inseacht dhuit…"
It can be used in an apology too. Tá aiféala orm faoi sin.

gabh mo leithscéal: Excuse me - if I was trying to get by somebody in a supermarket aisle etc. Or walking through a crowd. Interrupting somebody's conversation.

Tá brón orm: Sorry. If I stood on somebody's foot. (I know people will disagree with this as not the right meaning of "brón")

gabhaim pardún agat: I wouldn't say this myself but it can be said in an argument/discussion etc. But possibly it could be common in other places outside Conamara as excuse me.

Or you could say hmm that must be Carmanach or Aonghus! haha.

Thanks for sharing that with us Bríd.

What Bríd says above chimes in with what I already suspected: that "gaibhim pardún agat" is a Munster expression. I've only ever heard it from Munster Gaeltacht people.

It may explain why gabhaim pardún agat seems formal to Sinéad too.

gabhaim pardún agat-
I have heard it in context of a discussion. As in the phrase- gabhaim pardún agat ach tá tú mí-cheart....
Although not very common.

But never when knocking on the door to say excuse me.
That would make the person sound like an outsider.


Sorry about above posts. I used to back button to edit I didn't realise it would do that. :(
And this forum doesn't allow to delete my posts.
Sinéad jumped in so quickly before I was finished editing. :)

Maith agat, a Bhríd.

Sin, a bheag nó a mhór, a bheadh agamsa freisin.

Is maith liom fianaise chruinn!

What I can say is that,when I was at school,especially primary school,we would always use the phrase "Gabh mo leithscéal" for example if one of us had to enter another classroom for whatever reason.But I am reading all the points being raised here and I'm studying them.

To me "Gabhaim pardún" is something people say when they rift.

Sorry sibh a bhodaráil!

How, for us learners, to recognise "a good Gaeltacht speaker" ...?

(Message edited by Hugo on October 06, 2010)

quote:

How, for us learners, to recognise "a good Gaeltacht speaker" ...?

Good question.

Originally from the Gaeltacht is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.
Age is a likely indicator.
Fluent; not at loss for words; able to find a precise Irish word for a precise circumstance.

Originally from the Gaeltacht is an absolutely necessary condition! Yes, age is generally a factor. The older the better. A good native Gaeltacht speaker will not be at a loss for words and his or her Irish will have few anglicisms.

There are a few exceptions of people not originally from the Gaeltacht but who are without doubt good speakers and on a par with native speakers but these people are few and far between and so otherwise I'm with Carmanach here on originally from the Gaeltacht being vital.

Anyway it's not hard for a learner to know a good Gaeltacht speaker, well unless they're an absolute beginner. If you listen enough to native speakers you will know a good Gaeltacht speaker when you hear them! Thank God we're lucky to be living in a time where there are still plenty of these people about.

What I wrote was
"Originally from the Gaeltacht is a necessary but not a sufficient condition."

This is a mathematical term: what I am saying is that just being from the Gaeltacht is not enough. But that a good Gaeltacht speaker will invariably be from the Gaeltacht.

Which is why the strengthening of the Gaeltacht is essential to Irish; regardless of how many quasi/neo native or fluent speakers there are outside the Gaeltacht.

yes the richness is being lost and there are "good" and "not as good" speakers but still when you develop your ear the question of how to identify a good speaker isn't a problem. Sorry aonghus to have misinterpreted that phrase.

Ná bí buartha.

Ní féidir le gach duine béarlagair aos innealtóireachta a bheith acu!

The trend to "dumb down" language is not limited to the English speakers. I would be fearful if someone thought that they could learn good English off of any speaker. You have to read good books, and study the grammar to discern who a good Gaelteacht speaker is.

(Message edited by seánw on October 07, 2010)

Can you use "oth"?

is oth liom cur isteach ort?


I know Carmanach's suggestion for gabhaim pardún agat is right (apart from the spelling gaibhim...), but I want to see if "oth" can be used

As I pointed out to David before, "gaibhim" with the stem /gai/ is the most common form in Corca Dhuibhne but gabhaim with /gou/ does also occur.

quote:

Can you use "oth"?

is oth liom cur isteach ort?

Not quite the same meaning: you could use it to preface an explanation of why you are interrupting someone: but it doesn't carry the sense of asking permission/acceptance that "Gabh mo leithscéal/pardún" does.

Again, I agree with Aonghus. "Is oth liom" is a tad strong. "It is a matter of regret/sorrow to me".

Tá mé buartha le bheith cur isteach ort.

- according to a friend from Tory.

>>>Tá mé buartha le bheith cur isteach ort.
--------------------------------------------

That would have to be "bheith ag cur isteach ort" - the pronunciation is just "bheith a' cur isteach ort" - possibly the "ag" can be glided over totally, but it is still required in writing.

Yes. I've been telling learners this for years but no one seems to be listening. Ag + verbal noun - the g is almost always silent before a consonant except sometimes in slow deliberate speech. So, "ag déanamh" will be "a' déanamh" in speech. Before vowels the g is retained in speech: "ag ól, ag ithe" etc. I believe the Scots actually write "a' dèanamh", "a' cur", "a' bruidhinn" etc. Perhaps when the new Caighdeán Oifigiúil is finally revealed consideration might be paid to changing ag in verbal nouns beginning with a consonant to a' in the written language.