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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 170 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:29 am: | |
I was just looking through an old issue of Foinde when an advert caught my eye.A job avert headed by the 'word' :-Príomhfheidhmeannach.I'm guessing this means 'facilitator' or something equally nebulous.There are nineteen letters in the 'word' but I reckon you would pronounce maybe fifteen at most. However ,after a few attempts,I decided it wasn't really worth the effort.This abomination is not in my Foclóir Scoile or even O Dónaill.Of course it won't be in Dineen.It won't be anywhere in a few short years,le cúnamh Dé. In the same issue I find :Seaimpín = champion.This despite the fact Foclóir Scoile gives four nice easy Irish terms - gascíoch,cíoná,curadh,crann taca.Sometimes it seems there is a semi-state conspiracy to kill off the language.Perhaps we need our own version of the campaign for plain English? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10384 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:40 am: | |
Príomhfheidhmeannach Príomh = principal fheidhmeannach = executive i.e. Chief Executive It'll be around for a while more. quote:Perhaps we need our own version of the campaign for plain English? Absolutely. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 255 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:29 am: | |
Macdara, Are you taking the mick? Honestly? "Ugliest word ever"? So you're peeved at "príomhfheidhmeannach" cos, it's got, like, er, too many letters, and stuff. Too many letters?? "'Snot in me dikshunree!! Abomination! Abomination, I tell yiz!!" Won't be here in a few short years?? Pray, do tell us, how so? As for seaimpín, this word has been widely used in Corca Dhuibhne at least for generations and its meaning is not the same as either of the words you proffered above, all gleaned from "Foclóir Scoile" being the Irish grammarian's and linguist's first choice text, no doubt. Campaign for plain Irish? Who'll be in charge of that? You? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10387 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:31 am: | |
Joe Steve mo rogha. Le tánaistí ó Dhún na nGall agus Corca Dhuibhne. Ní chun gortghlanadh a dhéanamh ar fhocail: ach d'fhonn meamraiméis a chuir faoi chos, agus Gaeilge nádúrtha ghlé na Gaeltachta a chuir i réim. |
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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 172 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:51 am: | |
Carmanach,your first abusive paragraph seems to be at odds with your second.One the one hand the hideously clunky neologism 'priomhcontinuedfor94pages' is okay even though it's not in a dictionary- or in general use. On the other the four Irish terms for the English word 'champion'just won't do even though they are in Foclóir Scoile,which you imply is not good enough for grammarians and linguists.Next time I'm in Corca Dhuibhne I think i'll pop into Páidí O Sé's and ask if there's a vacancy for an oul priomhwhatareyehavingyerself.A well paid sinecure would be just seaimpín in these bad times.Slán agat and if i get the job I'll appoint you as ceannaire of the campaign! |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 258 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:14 pm: | |
Well, one is clearly in the presence of a greater intelligence here, a veritable giant of erudition, an oracle of wisdom, so one will tread carefully lest one further aggrevate thee, oh great one. Not in a dictionary? Not in general use? Well, it may not be in Ó Dónaill but then each and every day in my own study of Gaeltacht texts I find words and forms of words found in neither Ó Dónaill nor Dinneen. So, pray, great one, tell me what shall one do henceforth? What does thou advise? Shall I discard such forms forthwith into thon nearest wastepaper basket? One humbly awaits your sanctified reply. Not in general use? I and thousands of other people around the country will desist immediately from using "príomhfheidhmeannach" and demand that focal.ie do likewise! Thou has only to wave thy hand, my liege. And, pray, if it trouble your greatness not, what alternative shall one use in its stead? Please enlighten us. And, hark! Shall we introduce legislation proscribing any Irish words longer than fifteen letters so my lord's brain shall ache no longer? Foclóir Scoile? Is that the same dictionary designed for school children? I don't believe I have a copy anywhere in my library. Just as with collecting toy cars I have abandoned such childish things now that I am a man. Oh, and while you're down in Corca Dhuibhne ask the locals about "seaimpín". Sure, you never know, you might actually learn something about how languages actually work in the mouths of native speakers. |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 771 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:18 pm: | |
A chief-executive needs a big word to be big. There is a tendency, I notice, with some of the newer coinages to be a bit Latinate flavored, in the sense that they prefer a prefixation over a single word or two words. Irish orthography makes it look big, but according my pronunciation it is four syllables. I've seen a lot of words that are four syllables. English "chief executive" is five. Chief executive also is a vary narrowly used term, so I imagine only people who talk about chief executives would need the term. For instance, in English I've probably used in speech or writing the phrase "chief executive" zero times this year before this post. Who knows, people might come up with some acronym similar to CEO in English. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 503 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:20 pm: | |
Romham. Do not know why but as a word I try to avoid it :) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10390 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:22 pm: | |
Cuir romhat teacht thar an constaic úd! |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 504 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:38 pm: | |
Rinneas ruainne beag taighde anseo anuraidh agus 'sé "roimh mé féin" a landáil.... Seachas an ceann sin agus neart focal nua-aimseartha aistrithe go Gaeilge le tamall beag anuas, agus nach n-úsáidim, níl focal sa nGaeilge nach dtaithníonn liom. Aon cheann nach dtaithníonn leatsa a Aonghuis? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 259 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:38 pm: | |
thar an gconstaic/chonstaic! |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 505 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:41 pm: | |
nó thar an gconstábla |
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Dmd
Member Username: Dmd
Post Number: 118 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 02:14 pm: | |
@Macdara You may find the following bilingual publication by Breacadh of interest. Cuir Tú Féin In Iúl! / Get your Message Across!, Use Plain Language and Clear Design. This is a booklet that encourages the use of plain language when writing in Irish. It was ‘saor in aisce’ when I got mine about two years ago. If it’s out of print/stock there’s probably a copy with the Adult Ed. Ctr. in your neck of the woods. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10391 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 02:27 pm: | |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10392 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 02:29 pm: | |
quote:Aon cheann nach dtaithníonn leatsa a Aonghuis? Níl. Níl focail iontu féin gránna ná álainn; le smaointe a bhaineann áilleacht. (Message edited by aonghus on October 05, 2010) |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 262 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 03:19 pm: | |
A Aonghuis: an rud is ciallmhaire dá ndúradh ar an bhfóram so inniu, tusa a dúirt é: "Níl focail iontu féin gránna ná álainn; le smaointe a bhaineann áilleacht." |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 773 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 03:26 pm: | |
quote:Cuir Tú Féin In Iúl! An-spéisiúil. An tús lámhleabhar stíle, b'fhéidir? I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 507 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 05:04 pm: | |
A Aonghuis: an rud is ciallmhaire dá ndúradh ar an bhfóram so inniu, tusa a dúirt é: "Níl focail iontu féin gránna ná álainn; le smaointe a bhaineann áilleacht." Am I seeing things? Are you not nominating something you said yourself? :P |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 266 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 06:35 pm: | |
Jealous, are we Sinéad? Aw shucks, I'm flattered! |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 508 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 07:02 pm: | |
haha no, "we" are not jealous. mucho enjoying your impetuous temperament, sin an méid a chara. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 271 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 07:35 pm: | |
Glad you're no longer the only impetuous character on here, Sinéad? |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 278 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 07:11 am: | |
I note out of interest that Dinneen has "prímh-fheadhmannach" defining it as "a chief butler". |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10400 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 07:42 am: | |
A ndúirt tú sin le Feirdí? Bíonn sé cinnte flaithiúil leis an bhfíon... |
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Brídmhór
Member Username: Brídmhór
Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:55 am: | |
Seaimpín- is also used in Conamara for generations. It's a borrowed word maybe from English but could be from the French too. It's not bearlachas. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3658 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 12:26 pm: | |
The French word is champion, but it isn't pronounced as in English, but [ʃɑ̃pjɔ̃]. Doesn't really sound as in Irish either, except the first consonant. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/ |
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 878 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 01:11 pm: | |
If it were from Norman French rather than English, I would've expected -iún in the last syllable rather than -ín. Cf. náisiún, staisiún, réigiún, etc. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 02:11 pm: | |
Bríd, Would you care to comment on the other thread "I'm sorry to bother you"? We were wondering what people say in Conamara. |
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Macdara
Member Username: Macdara
Post Number: 173 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 02:57 pm: | |
For what it's worth my little comhrá group are all familiar with the makey uppy term priomh...etc.Most of them are retired teachers so I suppose that's no surprise.Nobody,including the lady from Dingle, has ever heard of seaimpín.Such is the ebb and flow of a language I suppose.Meanwhile Carmanach will make a fine butler,so charming and yet with a scintillating wit. |
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Hugo
Member Username: Hugo
Post Number: 72 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 06:14 pm: | |
quote:Carmanach will make a fine butler, so charming... ...and a very uncivil servant :) |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 291 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 06:19 pm: | |
We aim to please . . . |
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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:15 pm: | |
People, most of these words with príomh- in them are just calques from English. Main road is NOT príomhbhóthar in Irish - it's actually bóthar mór. |
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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:27 pm: | |
Sineadw, romham is a great word. It's probably because you are pronouncing it with a long u: in the Connemara way, but in the Cork way it is: rohm - with optional nasalisation, which makes it all the more fun. But of all those words, roimpi is the best - it is truly lovely! Umpu is my very favourite, it sounds like Oompaloompa, and so should be used more frequently, but it is hard to find an occasion to use it. Do bhuaileas umpu ar an mbóthar. |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 295 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 05:39 am: | |
Romham as /ru:m/ is not solely a Conamara pronunciation. It is, I understand, the sole form in the Déise and occurs alongside /ro:m/ in Corca Dhuibhne. As for forms with the prefix príomh- being calques of English, that is not true. Where did Dinneen get all of his examples containing príomh-? I'm sure Corpas na Gaeilge has many more examples from the manuscripts. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 10412 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 05:42 am: | |
Dil has several examples http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=pr%C3%ADmh&findle t=+&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1 gurab é Dia is prímh-ghníomhuightheóir iontsamhluighthe na peacaidh ┐ na prímh-fhiabhrais re chéile uillinn descertaigh na prímh-altóra |
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Carmanach
Member Username: Carmanach
Post Number: 296 Registered: 04-2009
| Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 05:44 am: | |
I think it was David who objected to forms containing nua-as a prefix. Again, I say, look at Dinneen. And placenames such as Nuachabháil < Nua-Chongbháil in County Cork and elsewhere. See logainm.ie |
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