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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (September-October) » Archive through October 18, 2010 » "bheith" or "a bheith" « Previous Next »

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 04:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am a little unclear as to when the verbal noun should take the "a" infinitive particle. I have read an article by PUL complaining that learners of Irish think that "a" is an infinitive particle, so that "to be" is "a bheith", when, he says, it is just "bheith". However, numerous counterexamples could be found, and the grammar books are not very good on this subject.

It kind of muddies the waters that in older literature, these particles are often left out if it is judged as not to necessarily appear in the pronunciation.

For example, in Mo Sgéal Féin where it says "oilte ar ghnothaíbh cogaidh, mar ba dhual dó bheith", should it be "mar ba dhual dó a bheith"?

What about: "gan aon phioc dá fhios a bheith aige cé hé féin" - it seems that most infinitival-type examples do have the "a", whether pronounced or not.

But there are things like: ba mhaith liom dul (not: a dul).

I know in English it is totally idiomatic: why is it "I must go", but "I want to go"? Why does one have "to" in and not the other? Is Irish similarly capricious on this point, or can a general rule be formulated?

It's a complicating, but in fact separate, thing that some verbal nouns take a possessive "a": ba mhaith liom a rá go... - this isn't the same "a" - or at least I understand it as possessive and teeing up for the following subordinate clause, and nothing to do with the infinitival particle. Also, where the verbal noun is governed by a subject (an rí a bheith ann) - it is clear that the "a" needs to be there. It is other situations that are more problematic.

Some examples from Niamh that I am putting in modern spelling:

* D’inis a dhá súil duit, ar an gcéad amharc, gurbh í iníon Thaidhg Mhóir Uí Cheallaigh a bhí agat, agus pé acu b’í nó nárbh í, gurbh é do bhuac bheith chomh múinte chomh béasach agus d’fhéadfá a bheith - the final "a bheith", is this right? or is it just bheith?

* Is mó trúig a dh’fhéadfadh a bheith leis sin ["there are many things that could be the cause of that"] - bheith, or a bheith?

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 766
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 01:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

David,
The a is often heard in the spoken language. Each dialect may have places where it may be omitted, or put in, that are unique. Sometimes in odd places.

Ex. of optional places

is féidir liom (a) bheith
is cóir dom (a) bheith

In general the rule is to put the a plus lenition if there is a direct object.

But just as common is saying, caithfidh mé a rá go ...

You can try reading this part which gives a good overview:
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm#Infin

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 873
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

But just as common is saying, caithfidh mé a rá go ...


In this particular case, I agree with David that what we are seeing is a proleptic pronoun rather than the eroded form of the preposition do. You can find the variant is féidir liom do bheith in earlier writings, but I've yet to come across *caithfidh mé do rá go....

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 241
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Both "bheith" and "a bheith" are found in Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí in similar situations but no explanation is provided as to there being any difference between them.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2010 - 04:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I am only a learner, but I think that what you are referring to is about whether the object of the action directly follows the Verbal noun.

Ba mhaith liom dul go dtí an siopa. In this case there is a preposition between the verbal noun and the object (siopa) of the action. The verbal noun goes before the preposition and before the object.

Alternatively

Ba mhaith liom éadaí a cheannach. In this case there is no preposition between the verbal noun and the object (éadaí). Therefore we use "a" and move the verbal noun to the end of the clause after the object.

So both "bheith" and "a bheith" are used, but their use is not interchangeable.

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 243
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 05:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Note also that after a vowel the "a" in "a bheith" wouldn't be heard in speach anyway: "Ní bheadh an faoisceán collaigh ró-olc ach é a bheith mór" - in this sentence one would hear "é bheith mór".

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 875
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Not in all cases, a Charmanaigh, but what about when "(a) bheith" doesn't follow a word ending in a vowel, e.g. "gan aon phioc dá fhios a bheith aige cé hé féin"? Would you still expect the a to be dropped here?

quote:

I am only a learner, but I think that what you are referring to is about whether the object of the action directly follows the Verbal noun.


Except that is an intransitive verb and, as such, can't take an object. For instance, in "Is mó trúig a dh’fhéadfadh a bheith leis sin", beith has a complement in the form of the prepositional phrase leis sin, but no object as such.

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Carmanach
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Post Number: 268
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 07:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In the case of a consonant coming before a, usage seems to be mixed both in the Graiméar and in various examples from my own notes gleaned from Munster authors. There doesn't appear to be any clear pattern. A colleague of mine and expert on Corca Dhuibhne tells me that he is unaware of any difference between "bheith" and "a bheith".

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I seem to have confused the matter. I intended in my original post to make clear I was not asking about sentences where there would be a proleptic pronoun, and not asking about sentences where the verbal noun governs an object.

I am asking about cases where those things don't apply.

mar ba dhual dó bheith - good example

is mó trúig a fhéadfadh bheith leis sin - another good one

chomh béasach agus d’fhéadfá bheith - another good one


These are not proleptic situations, and the verbal noun is not governing any object. But I thnk you could find "a bheith" frequently in these sentences, especially with bheith, which muddies the waters by being lenited at all times in the modern language.

D'fhéadfá bheith: 234 examples on Google
D'fhéadfá a bheith: 11,100 examples on Google

This question is not discussed anywhere on the nualeargais site - it gives a good overview of everything other than what I am asking about.

Irish particles are confused. "a" and "do" mean a large number of things. These particles spread from the perfective particle and verbal prefixes. Following the complete confusion of the grammar in the 17th and 18th centuries, grammarians had to come up with creative attempts to make sense of the situation that prevailed. They decided some particles were relative, others were "particles governing the verbal noun", others were proleptic, essentially possessive. These explanations have a large element of "making it up as they went along" in order to make sense of things.

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 05:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Thank you to all participants for helping me on this.

I am reading a sentence near the end of chapter 10 of PUL's Niamh: "Ansan bhéadh seilbh ag Lochlanachaibh i n-Éirinn agus bhéadh sé fuar ag M’lsheachlainn bheith ag cur ’n-a gcoinnibh." Then the Vikings would have owned part of Ireland and it would have been in vain for M'leachlainn to oppose them.


Now, I was not aware that "fuar" meant "in vain", but on p587 of Ó Dónaill's dictionary there is an example:

tá sé fuar agat a bheith ag caint air anois

You can see clearly the infinitival particle "a" there - I think this could either be pronounced or not, no difference.

It does show that PUL's protestations that there is no infinitival particle in Irish is not quite right. But I think some verbs, bheith, rá, feiscint, are more likely to have an infinitival particle.

I don't think this problem can be fully explained grammatically. The "proleptic" explanation of some of these instances is just creative, but it is in fact an infinitival particle that developed only part-way in the 17th and 18th centuries. I mean, would you say, "tá sé fuar agat a dhul ann?" I think it would have to be "dul".



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