I have just realised that there is a pronunciation dictionary at Forvo.com.

This is a very useful tool for learners of Irish at all levels.

It relies on users to upload pronunciations. There are a couple of thousand already. It is the easiest to use of such services I have seen.

Can I ask that more advanced speakers, and more particularly native speakers take a few minutes out of their day to record a few pronunciations. It takes about 15 seconds to record and save a word. It is as easy as that.

URL below to go straight to Irish
http://www.forvo.com/languages/ga/

I have no connection to Forvo, and I make this request out of 2 years of frustration trying to get a handle on Irish pronounciations.

Daithí

I'm a member of that site too.
And I can recommend it.

Bríd, there is someone called Bríd Eilís on that site who has provided many audio files. Is that you?

yes :)

It is key that native speakers each do their bit. I posted about 80 pronunciations in a half hour or hour last night.

My concern is that if native speakers do not get involved, then "Dublin Irish" like my own Pidgin Irish will end up being the standard.

We badly need a pronunciation dictionary, and this site is saving the State or voluntary organisations tens of thousands by providing it.

Can I therefore implore everyone who is a native speaker, or who has very good Irish to log on and get pronouncing!

Please don't make pronunciations you are not sure of.

Daithí - Would I be right to assume that you are Fagan?

Do they allow more than one pronunciation per entry?

SeánW - Yes. Anybody can give another version of the same word. You can have different dialects that way. And people can vote for each other too, which gives more credence to the word.

(Message edited by Brídmhór on September 30, 2010)

quote:

And people can vote for each other too, which gives more credence to the word.

that's good (given those who vote know what is a good pronunciation), because you all know what happens with such websites... those who participate most are those who know the least (most of the time)... Fortunately, I saw Bríd and An Treasach are among the participants :-)

Anyone have any idea why there is a photo of Scottish bagpipers on the Irish page of Forvo? http://www.forvo.com/languages/ga/

I tend to agree with Lughaidh about such websites. Just look at Wikipedia. You could spend hours battling with idiots who haven't a clue what they are talking about. The worst thing is when you read an article on a topic you actually know something about and can spot the errors and inaccuracies. The scary part is when you read an article on something you don't know anything about and never be sure whether what you're reading is actually accurate. And citations aren't always a help! I know of at least one article where the contributor actually invented references or twisted them to suit his own agenda.

LOL

Carmanach, what makes you think they're Scottish bagpipers? It looks more like an Irish bagpipe-band to me. (I thought for a second that was my uncle front-left...)

Anyway, pipebands are a Scottish thing, these pipes are Scottish ones and the way these pipers are dressed is Scottish as well. Even if they are Irish! Originally, all these things are Scottish and have been brought to Ireland quite recently (and to Wales sometimes, and Australia and India etc).

I don't think kilts were ever worn by the Irish Gaels, and I don't think Highland pipes were ever used in Ireland - there were pipes (before the uilleann pipes were created) but they weren't like that...
Anyway!

Lughaidh is right. The individuals in the photo are probably so-called "Irish Americans". The Americans do tend to get a bit confused over what constitutes "Irish culture", bless their little heads.

Note also that they are sporting tartan sashes. "Clan tartans" are an early nineteenth century Scottish invention and have nothing to do with Ireland whatsoever.

There were indeed warpipes in Ireland and numerous historical accounts testify to that although how exactly they sounded or were constructed is largely conjecture as no indigenous examples have survived. The uilleann pipes are an eighteenth century invention.

quote:

The individuals in the photo are probably so-called "Irish Americans". The Americans do tend to get a bit confused over what constitutes "Irish culture", bless their little heads.

Looks like the Irish pipebands are less known in Ireland than in Brittany! Every year at the Interceltic festival in Lorient, there are several Irish pipebands : no difference from Scottish ones, except they often wear a green kilt and tartan... This year there was a Welsh pipeband as well (red kilts and tartan, if I remember well). :-)

Lughaidh, have you seen any of those bekilted Cornwallians at Lorient? They've even invented a "Cornish National Tartan", for crying out loud. It's black, yellow and white. In Ireland we have the "green knickers brigade". I imagine in Cornwall they have the "black, yellow and white tartan knickers brigade".

The use of the colour green to symbolise Ireland is another piece of nineteenth century romantic nationalist fakery. Apparenly, dark blue was a colour widely used by the Gaelic Irish. So, we shold have the "blue knickers brigade" and not the green.

Sorry, I shouldn't have piped up at all...should've been more observant. Níor thug me fá deara fiú gur "glengarry" atá á chaitheamh acu, gan trácht ar na "tartan sashes". My Gaeltacht uncle used to play in the local pipe-band, which wore a red tartan kilt (not the gold/orange one), with a green sash. I'll put that in my pipe and...

Of course, we do have pipebands here in Ireland but they are not that popular and wouldn't be looked on as being Irish any more than flute bands or brass bands.

Kilts, sporrans, tartans and sashes are all about as authentically Irish and Gaelic as Darby O'Gill's left testicle.

quote:

Lughaidh, have you seen any of those bekilted Cornwallians at Lorient?

I think so, yeah.

quote:

They've even invented a "Cornish National Tartan", for crying out loud. It's black, yellow and white.

The worst in that story, is that there are people in Brittany who've created a "Breton National Tartan" as well, and some people from Ushant (an island off the coast of northwestern Brittany) have created a tartan for their island and wear kilts... which is complete nonsense : in Brittany there are many many traditional clothes, every region has its own costumes (67 groups of costumes, plus variations in every parish), they are very beautiful but maybe not "Celtic" enough for those guys, or not "Interceltic" enough, I dunno. The Breton milieu is full of liars and of forgers who want to re-create the whole culture and language -- they don't like Brittany as it is, and want to replace it by a Brittany as they want it to be!

A Alaín (Carmanach), ná bí i do miotasbhristeoir(??)/spoilsport! An chéad rud eile, beidh tú ag rá linn nár cheart dúinn an tseamróg féin a úsáid. (Seamróg ghorm ní fhaca mé riamh...)
(Cén Ghaeilge ar "spoilsport/party-pooper"?)

"Deir siad go bhfuil an fhírinne searbh, ach, creid mise, ní searbh atá sí ach garbh, agus sin an fáth a seachantar í."

(Seosamh Mac Grianna - Mo Bhealach Féin)

quote:

I don't think kilts were ever worn by the Irish Gaels, and I don't think Highland pipes were ever used in Ireland - there were pipes (before the uilleann pipes were created) but they weren't like that

I also don't ever think Irish people spoke English and pretended to be English, or were atheists, or had abortions, or voluntarily joined superstates (read "empires"), etc etc! By God, Scottish pipes are a blessing from heaven compared to the other things Irish people are infatuated with these days!

The photo is from Boston, that place where all your ancestors fled to.

Bhuel,

Yes, there is a lot of silly stuff out there. However,

1. Cultural traits need not be 3,000 years old to be part of a living tradition that is 3,000 years old.

a) If green became symbolic of Ireland in 1982 that doesn't make it fakery, just recent.

b) The uilleann pipes are interesting. If it was popularized in Ireland in the 18 th century that doesn't make it fakery, just recent. You can think of it as part of a living tradition that is "only" 200 years old.

c) Someone once said Irish step dancing is only from the 17 th century. The "only" is silly. That is still old. It is part of a living tradition.


2. Some Irish American traditions need not refer to the Ireland of today for legitimacy. We may have exaggerated certain traits relative to the old country. And yes there is a lot silly stuff out there.

3. We Irish Americans are an offshoot of an Ireland that no longer exists. My parents were not completely at home during their last return trips to Ireland.

4. I have more in common with my Irish parents than with the folks living in Ireland today. I have more in common with my Irish parents than I do with George Bush.


I hope I can still get the occasional grammar question answered. :)

And one more thing before I drop it, the people who came over here fought tooth and nail to get treated as humans just like people in Ireland. There is a vibrant Irish culture here, even if it has been mixed into the melting pot. I don't get upset when I hear Irish people playing rock music which is 100% American. I say, is it good? Then great! I thought we were for diversity these days!

quote:

I also don't ever think Irish people spoke English and pretended to be English, or were atheists, or had abortions, or voluntarily joined superstates (read "empires"), etc etc! By God, Scottish pipes are a blessing from heaven compared to the other things Irish people are infatuated with these days!

The problem is that there are people, now, who think that Scottish pipes and kilts are Irish traditional things as well.
I love piping, I played Highland pipes myself. But I don't like when people believe things that aren't true - when it can easily be avoided.

quote:

The photo is from Boston, that place where all your ancestors fled to.

Not mine, anyway :-) (if your sentence was addressed to me).


Jim > don't worry, we love grammar questions :-)

I took your quote, Lughaidh, because you voiced the sentiment. I was addressing Irish people in Ireland, of course. The point is that Irish have sold themselves out right at the point in which they had a lot of freedom to do otherwise, so why split hairs about the bagpipes and what-not of your neighbors when thy culture dost not see the [huge] beam in its own eye!

I got frustrated myself when I went to an Irish fair near my home here, and there was all the cliched stuff, certainly no Irish language, but its not bad, or evil, and I can get involved and change that. And it is our way of mixing things up here, really the only way we know how to get on with things. I went to Ireland and saw a lot of Irish people just trying to be American or English. I saw more of the cliches there than here.

A line must be drawn at green Guinness...

Hmmmm,

Alot of judgement here, based on no particular expertise.

I am no expert on Gaelic dress, but would have to say that whilst the Kilt (feileadh beag) was never worn in Ireland, clothing similar to it was.

Neither was it worn traditionaly in Scotland in the style it is today, however, outwith the tartan <> clan myth it can be viewed as an organic growth from a living tradition.

Tartan was of course worn in Ireland, we have native examples of Ulster Tartan. Many surviving examples of Gaelic dress in Ireland and comtempory illustations demonstate that whilst the Scottish outfit worn at weddings today was not worn in Ireland, there are similarities.

As for the war pipes, again, we know these were played, there is no reason that one cannot judge the Highland pipes as an evolution of those.

But of course, the reason that people join pipe bands is because they enjoy it.

As to authenticity, there is an arguement that a pipe band is not 'Irish' or 'Celtic' but they are Gaelic without any doubt.

Like many other questions these are grey areas, not black and white.

Ní lia duine ná tréithe cultúir. (Not more numerous than people are cultural characteristics). We are all Americans now. Australians, South & East Africans, British, Irish, we are totally immersed in and imbued with one culture. We watch the same TV shows, listen to the same pop songs, read the same "blockbusters".

It is a subtle but dominant imperial culture but it is there and we "Irish enthusiasts" are part of it. Even in Ireland. Even in the heart of the Gaeltacht.

If you don't like it you have to become active. Do something. Join a class. Get a phrase-book. Re-learn the Irish you never really tried to learn in school. Surprise your friends with a few words of Irish. Even "Go raibh maith agat" reveals an attitude and the Irish speakers in your circle will try a "Conas tá tú?" on another occasion and soon you will be known as an Irish speaker. In time you may join a local ciorcal comhrá, find a like-minded partner, send your child to a Naíonra, and on to a Gaelscoil. Now you have two family members to practise and improve your Irish with.

What's wrong with that? Some families are well-known for their devotion to music, drama, or art. Ní ualach í an Ghaeilge. Irish is no load. Why are Irish-speakers ashamed of their Irish?

Academic study is laudable but it is the few words spoken between friends and relatives "in the chipper" that gives hope for the future of the language.

Mura dtógaimid céim chun cinn agus an teanga seo is aoibhinn linn a scríobh is a labhairt is beag tionchar a bheidh againn ar thodhchaí na teanga.

Bíonn taobh na Gaeilge an-chiúin ar an láithreán seo féin.

Is maith liom an aibhleog mar shamhail. Cibé áit ina mbeadh aibhleog b'fhurasta tine a lasadh. Cibé áit ina bhfuil Gaeilgeoir líofa d'fhéadfaí rang d'fhoghlaimeoirí a thosú agus i gceann bliana nó dhó bheadh an teanga á leathadh ó dhuine go duine.

Is í an Ghaeilge bunchloch an chultúir Ghaelaigh, príomhchultúr na hÉireann. Cuid thábhachtach de chultúir iomadúla an domhain mhóir.

quote:

Academic study is laudable but it is the few words spoken between friends and relatives "in the chipper" that gives hope for the future of the language.

Thig leat an dá rud a dhéanamh!
Na scoláirí uilig a ghníos taighde ar a' Ghaeilg 's a bhfuil aithne agam orthu, úsáideann siad uilig a' Ghaeilg ina saol laethúil. So níl's agam cé ata i gceist agad!

Back to Forvo.

There aren't really debates. You just add words you want pronounced and pronounce words you want to pronounce. You can vote for the best pronunciation of a word. Even if there is only one pronunciation of a word you can vote it as good or bad.

There isn't really messers on the site, but people do ask for hiberno english words and names like Kieran to be pronounced.

I sent an email to them asking how many editors they had for Gaelige. Perhaps some of ye will pronounce a few words and then apply to be an editor. I will do that myself just to weed out English words and the occaision joke entry.

Can people post this message on other threads. We need to galvanise to get this going. There is a "popular languages" section which puts certain languages to the top of the webpqge. Irish is only a few hundred pronunciations short of that.
If we did reach that targets it would have a much higher profile.

Tabhair dom cabhair le do thoil.

Daithí

Yes. I am fagan.

I think it is important that quality pronunciations are done and voted on. I have tried to stick to pronunciations I am pretty sure of, but would appreciate a few native speakers redoing them.

It is important though that Irish speakers use the site. It is an incredible resource for leathers.

Daithí

Just to respond to a few points if I may:

- if believing that we should celebrate those aspects of our culture that are historically accurate and verifiable makes me a "spoilsport" or a "killjoy", then so be it, I'm proud to call myself a "killjoy". If Irish Americans wish to fabricate their own culture so that they stand out from other white Americans, then so be it. But please, do not claim this to be "Irish culture". It isn't. It is American.

- If kilted betartaned pipe bands are an authentic part of Irish culture why are they so rarely seen in Ireland? Why do we not see them at Oireachtas na Gaeilge? As I said before the Gaelic Irish did have warpipes but we know little beyond conjecture as to how exactly these were constructed and sounded. For example what was the diameter of the chanter's bore? What were the dimensions of the reeds used etc.? What sort of music was originally played on them? How many drones did they have? Apart from some (probably) inaccurate sketches, we know little.

- My ancestors never "fled to Boston". They stayed in this country and weathered famine and adversity.

- As for us Irish "selling ourselves out" and trying to be English or American, that is true to a certain extent but it is ultimately up to the people of Ireland to decide their own identity. At least the Irish made their own decisions in their own country and didn't see fit to go to someone else's and deny them their language, land and cultural identity.

- Another poster above says that the Irish wore clothing similar to the kilt. Similar but not identical. In fact there is ample evidence that the Gaelic Irish wore an article of clothing called the "triús" which is more akin to a tight fitting trousers worn above or just below the knee. As for tartan, the Irish may well have worn tartans of some variety or other but as I've already said, there is no evidence whatsoever of Irish "clan tartans" specifically identifying particular "clans" or groups. The so called "Ulster tartan" may well not be Irish at all but brought across by one of the Scots planters. In fact, almost all of the modern day "Irish tartans" were invented for the Irish American market and are almost unknown here in Ireland.

Carmanach,
Valid points. Keep in mind that many "Irish Americans" are just that. We have citizenship in both countries. We can move to Ireland at any moment and bring our bag pipes and kilts and misconceptions. My wife and children are Irish citizens, none of which were born in Ireland. They are your fellow countrymen, whether you like it or not. And "Irish" is changing itself. What about all the immigrants who contribute their culture? One city, one people? What about when there are more Polish speakers than Irish speakers? Historical accuracy is vital, I agree, but think about how much interest in Ireland and its culture is based on inaccuracy and romanticism? How do all these Irish language initiatives get funded if people don't want to spend tourist dollars over there? When they do come Irish people seem more than willing to share in the collective fun of being "Irish" no matter how true that is. In fact, we love most how Irish people seem so accommodating and welcoming. We all are misrepresented in a positive or negative light. My main point is the hair-splitting minutiae about the picture. Someone thought that was representative of Ireland and its culture now. Perhaps a lot of people in the picture are Irish citizens. It's not far off. It's not like it was a Indian man playing a sarangi! I'm sure you can recommend another picture, perhaps of cranes in the Dublin skylight, or a picture of a Starbucks right next to a McDonalds, with people playing traditional Irish instruments right in front, wearing blue jeans and football jerseys. What's more authentic?

Yes, someone holding Irish citizenship is legally Irish but how much do they actually know about modern Ireland and modern Irish culture? How much can they identify with the modern state apart from having a piece of paper saying "I am Irish"? Do you or your wife pay taxes here? Have you ever lived here for a long period, say a few years? Can they be said to be as Irish as myself who was born here and has lived nowhere else?

As for Polish immigrants, that is a straw man argument. I have no complaints against Polish immigrants whatsoever. Polish people who came here in the boom years had children here who are of course Irish and will create a new Polish Irish identity with time. That is to be welcomed. However, the Poles have not fabricated a vision of Ireland and Irishness invented in Warsaw or Krakow or Lublin by people who have never set foot in Ireland and insisting that it should be taken as seriously as that which Irish people in Ireland have moulded for themselves. Also, I've never heard of Polish people in Poland handing over money to NORAID. As for racist idiots in Ireland whinging about there being more Polish speakers than Irish speakers, it wasn't the Poles who brought about the demise of the language in the first place!

You said: "Historical accuracy is vital, I agree, but think about how much interest in Ireland and its culture is based on inaccuracy and romanticism? How do all these Irish language initiatives get funded if people don't want to spend tourist dollars over there? When they do come Irish people seem more than willing to share in the collective fun of being "Irish" no matter how true that is. In fact, we love most how Irish people seem so accommodating and welcoming." Well, call me a incorrigible cynic if you like, but I think you've answered your own question there. You see, we Irish are a nation of cute hoors and whenever there's a chance of free drink or making a few bob on the side, the Irish will love you like you're their very own. So keep them greenbacks rollin' on in!

You said: "My main point is the hair-splitting minutiae about the picture. Someone thought that was representative of Ireland and its culture now." But how could any Irish person think such a thing is representative of Irish culture now?! This is clearly an American invention. Where are all the tartan kilted pipebands here? Why are there never any at the Oireachtas?
The same goes for an "Indian man playing a sarangi"? How many Indian men playing sarangis do you see here in Ireland?

You said: "I'm sure you can recommend another picture, perhaps of cranes in the Dublin skylight, or a picture of a Starbucks right next to a McDonalds, with people playing traditional Irish instruments right in front, wearing blue jeans and football jerseys. What's more authentic?" Well, people playing traditional Irish music in jeans and soccer shirts outside of a Starbucks is a hell of a lot more authentic of modern Ireland and its culture than some Americans in tartan kilts and sporrans!

So write Forvo and switch the picture. Let's get something up there that is truly representative.

I don't disagree with many of your points. I just think you singled out something innocuous, and made it into a bigger item by saying "bless their little heads" about Irish Americans. It sounded patronizing to my ears. I don't care much at all about the picture or the pipes, because I am playing the devil's advocate for the most part. I don't play any pipes, don't really buy into any of the cliches for both of our cultures. I think that the innocent, naive, romantic, or whatever view of Irish Americans is a good thing. It keeps bonds, however loose, together, helps support the homeland through tourist dollars, and may help foster bonds between Gaelic peoples (might help that sticky situation up north). Those with the most interest will eventually peel away the curtain.

Watch out if there is ever a return to Ireland movement and we all come flooding in, and we all speak Irish.

Well, we'll have to agree to differ so. I'll write to Forvo and give you a shout when I get an answer.

A lot of Irish-Americans have a romantic view of Ireland. Others are well aware of how Ireland has changed since their ancestors left here. But I believe most are genuinely welcomed here. All tourists are, it's called Irish hospitality. I don't benefit in any way from American tourist dollars, most people don't.
The people that left during the famine didn't do it because they wanted to, it was either that or die in poverty in Ireland. The generations that followed also left to get jobs that just weren't available here. (and no government social welfare either).
We can be grateful to the Irish-Americans. Lots of people sent money to their relatives here. I remember well getting clothes parcels from my fathers aunt. It was common locally to get American parcels and dollars. Just getting a few dollars at Christmas was a huge thing at a time when Conamara people were very poor and needed help.
In more recent times there the help with Greencards; the Peace Process etc.
Their culture is very much mixed with our own. It's different but not separate.

I didn't necessarily mean that we hand out money, although families do that amongst one another. I meant that when we visit Ireland we bring foreign income streams into your area. We spend it in your shops, and "redistribute" our wealth into your economy, and vice versa. So I would say you benefit, albeit indirectly. A lot of romanticism probably supports areas that would otherwise be ignored. (I wonder how much Oideas Gael money is dependent on tourism, for instance. Or how many start learning Irish off of a romantic notion.) I went to places with a romantic view. I had some of those conceptions crushed, but in other ways I gained a new insight into Ireland that is even more interesting. At the end of the day, though, a big problem facing the Irish language and the viability of economies which involve the Irish language is economic.

Just to note, my mother and father in law just got back from Ireland last week. They brought home with them a small, soft football for the wee one with shamrocks on it, and it said Ireland. For my other son they got him a green jersey that says Ireland. Hopefully it was made there. I got a Guinness dark chocolate bar. It was yummy, and all natural. My wife got an apron with a hopping sheep on it, which also said Ireland on it. Green, sheep, shamrocks, Guinness, these are all iconic things for us. All touristy, but people get the same kind of stuff when they visit the Grand Canyon, or New York. We are all aware that it is touristy, but people react positively to it more often than not, and it strikes up conversations.

quote:

Hopefully it was made there.

...or in China, as most small Eiffel towers souvenirs are, in Paris ;-)

KERCHING!! Sounds like O'Carroll's Irish Gifts made a killing that day! LOL

Anyway, I don't mean to tar all Irish Americans with the same brush. I know that there are highly intelligent people amongst them and a lot of ignorant buffoons on this side of the Atlantic too. I've been a tad cheesed off of late since I've discovered the bizarre world of "Irish clans" peddling all sorts of fake paddywackery. Now not all of the individuals behind these things are Irish Americans. I know that. But a good many are, perhaps a majority.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm

Cén dochar? Fág faoi lucht na bréag galántachta agus uaisle a gcuid cluichí.

Als Adam grub, und Eva span
Wo war den da der Edelmann?

Níl in uasal is íseal
ach thuas seal is thíos seal

Cén dochar, a deireann tú? An gcreideann tú in oidhreacht na Gaelainne agus i stair ár sinsear? An gcreideann tú sa bharántúlacht acadúil stairiúil, i nithe is inchruthaithe ar bhonn fianaise is mionstaidéir? Cad é an mhaith dhuinn uile in aon chor bacúint leis an dteangain seo agus ár gcuid staire mara dtéitear i gceann na hoibre mar is ceart?

"fág faoi lucht na bréag-ghalántachta". Aidiacht roim ainmfhocal > réimír.

Creidim i dtólamh in obair fhiúntach.

Ach ní fiú a bheith leo siúd ar mór leo galamaisíocht: is fearr obair mhaith a dhéanamh, agus ligean dóibh. Tabhair a dóthain téada dóibh, mar a dúirt an té a dúirt.

quote:

I've been a tad cheesed off of late since I've discovered the bizarre world of "Irish clans" peddling all sorts of fake paddywackery.

I too concerning Irish coats of arms -- for the most part historically inaccurate/non-existent. People like to have them on their wall, though, and they look nice. (I'm actually a little upset I'm not the one with the marketing acumen.) Please don't get me wrong, I am wholly in favor of historical accuracy, and a differentiation between traditional Irish culture and somewhat newer, less ancient culture, or even gimmick commercial culture. I think we might agree that we're guilty on both sides of some of it. Americans do a great job of mixing things up -- you know, all Europeans are the same, and you all have high taxes and small friges. We, of course, have big bellys, big mouths, and like to blow up people who are "evil doers". I have more respect for people when they get to know actual people from the country and delve into the more lasting aspects of the culture. And I thank you and your ancestors for staying there and keep it going. Go raibh maith agaibh uilig!

http://alphadesigner.com/project-mapping-stereotypes.html

Very, very, very funny!

if I can add my two centimes ...
I just wanted to point out that it seems to be symbol against reality . But isn't many times a symbol as important as reality ?
I absolutely agree with you Lughaidh about these small Eiffel towers being certainly made in China . But anyway, is it that important ? And Seanw, is it so important that your souvenirs would be made IN Ireland. Your post indicates that you appreciated them a lot anyway. The main thing for you and for all tourists is that back in their country they can have an object which would make them remember this or that country they just visited, this or that fellow they met there and whith whom they had these so good moments... just an image, a remembrance.
As was posted above (Jimnuaeabhrac) pipes were introduced in Ireland in the 18th century. I happen to have a chanter which was given to me by my mother . I tried to learn how to play . I'm not a champion but whenever I manage to have some sounds get out of this instrument, well, I AM HAPPY and I'm thinking about Ireland, about my ancestors, what their lives could be ... etc... just a dream of course . I'm far from the historical accuracy and I must say I don't give a d.. about that . I'm just full of feelings towards this country .
And I would just add that whenever I go abroad I try to get some of these stupid souvenirs which are fake, sometimes ugly, but which have this great power of making this new country I've just been visiting stay still a little bit alive within me .
just some divagations ...

Forvo have now changed the photo on their Irish page. No more Scots! I suggested a picture of a harp or one of those old shop signs in Irish or an An Ghaeltacht sign but they insisted on something with a human face so they went for a harper from Co Clare. Clink link below:

http://www.forvo.com/languages/ga/

The discusssion here has been collegial and I appreciate the generosity of spirit shown by those posting.

Just to be a pest: I think it is a nice picture and a harp is very Irish, but the old Irish harps were were different. Oppression drove that tradtional harp to extinction and we don't know exactly how they sounded or how they were played.

Well, I wanted a picture of the Trinity college harp but they insisted on having a human face in the picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College_Harp

Maith thú, that works.

Have they ever heard of photoshop?

Have ye no beds to be going to! It's quarter past one in the morning. Good night. Chat tomorrow.

Good night, Carmanach! 1:16 am for you, 5:16 pm for me! Funny enough, I notice the ebb and flow of posts from Ireland. I come after the fun has began, and hang around after its died down. I notice a few night-owls though!

"I notice a few night-owls though!"

-- Yes I'm going to bed now. :)

A few brief points:

"Warpipes"/Bagpipes:- played in Ireland for centuries.
The tradition in both Ireland and Scotland was probably more or less the same. The main difference being, of course, that while it was maintained in Scotland it went into decline here.

Tartan:- The Irish certainly never had a system of special "setts" assigned to particular surnames (clans) or regions (in fact the Scots probably didn't either!) but material of that general pattern was worn in Ireland (examples have been found on bodies preserved in bogs). People didn't go about draped from head to toe in it, though :)

Kilts:- the "saffron kilt" is 19th century nonsense based on a mistake - the lower part of the saffron/yellow léine bore some resemblance to a kilt in old illustrations of Irish kerns.
Trews were the lower garment of choice for our ancestors.


The main fault I'd have with Scottish-style pipe bands is the simple fact that they bolster the idea that piping is Scottish and Scottish alone. It's a genuinely Irish tradition too.

Carmanach, you are right, the traditional Irish colour is blue. How did Green take off? Because Ireland is the "Emerald Isle" and is very green in fact???

I know Wikipedia (which I call "an Fhicipéid") has a lot of bad articles, but the article on St. Patrick's Blue is great, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick's_Blue

St. Patrick's Blue is a dark blue colour associated with Ireland. The flag of the president of Ireland is a harp set against St. Patrick's Blue, and would make a great national flag in mo thuairimse: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_President_of_Ireland.svg for a picture.

That Ficipéid article also said "In Irish mythology, Flaitheas Éireann, the sovereignty of Ireland, was represented as a woman in a blue robe".

Interesting in this respect, I have been reading about Queen Gormfhlaith (Gormley) in Niamh. She was the wife of Brian Ború, and was Irish, the daughter of the King of Leinster. But she was the widow of Scandinavian King of Dublin when she married Brian Ború, and she supported the claims of her son, King Sigtrygg II Silkbeard of Dublin and encouraged him to fight Brian Ború, leading to her divorce from the latter and the AD 1014 Battle of Clontarf.

Gormfhlaith means "blue sovereignty" and could possibly hark back to the image of Ireland as a woman in blue robe?

Also, note that the carpets in Dáil Éireann are also blue. I think the whole green thing came in with the idea of Ireland and its "forty shades of green" and other such nonsense.

To Séamus: Yes, piping was an Irish tradition but the modern incarnation of the pipeband with their pleated kilts, knee-length stockings, brass-buttoned jacket and shirt with the bonnet or cap and brogues are probably nineteenth century Scottish inventions, some of which may also have been promoted by Scottish regiments of the British Army and carried to every corner of the British Empire.

I believe that the only truely genuine part of our culture and heritage left to us in Ireland today is the language.

quote:

I believe that the only truely genuine part of our culture and heritage left to us in Ireland today is the language.

Ceard faoin iomáint?

Cluiche ársa is ea an iomáint, siúrálta, ach eagraíocht Bhéarla d'fhormhór is ea Cumann Lúthchleas Gael. Comhaltaí na heagraíochta bíonn a bhformhór mór i dtaobh leis an mBéarla mar theangain labhartha. Is minic a cloistear go bhfuil "Gael mór ar lár" nuair a cailltear iománaí nó peileadóir mór le rá ar a shon ná raibh focal Gaelainne ina phluc ag an nduine a cailleadh.

Ceard faoin Chreideamh?! Oileán na Naomh?

Sin ábhar do bhladhm-chogadh nua ar fad!

Ach is beag leanúnachas sa Chreidimh ón am go raibh seilbh ag Gael in Éirinn, pé scéal é; agus is iomaí craiceann curtha di ag an Eaglais abhus.

"An Creideamh", a Sheáin?

A Aonghuis, tuigim. Síl mé go raibh muid oibiachtúil.



(Message edited by seánw on October 07, 2010)

"St. Patrick's Blue is a dark blue colour associated with Ireland. The flag of the president of Ireland is a harp set against St. Patrick's Blue, and would make a great national flag in mo thuairimse."

I've been thinking it would be a great symbol for the Diaspora. Or maybe a unified Ireland?

And still... Only a few people pronouncing words on Forvo. Thank you BrídEilís for your work.

Lads, can you give a dig out here. Otherwise you will end up with my Dublin learner's Irish, and you will all be grumbling about its lack of authenticity. You have been warned...

Daithí

I'd like to get involved but do you need special equipment? Like a special microphone cum headset? I might need to buy one of those.

Generally no. It works on my laptop. It just uses whatever microphone is on your computer. It is really easy. Just register and give it a go. No harm done if your PC's mike doesn't work, but it does seem easy to use.