Does anyone know the Munster pronunciation of this word (which means "the prophets").

I know "an fáidh" is /ən fɑ:gʹ/, but I have been told /nə fɑ:gʹi/ by someone unsure of the pronunciation. But according to the rules set out in IWM it would be /ən fɑ:/. If it makes any difference, Dinneen's dictionary gave fáithe as a variant form of fáighe - does that imply /fɑ:hi/?

It is now quite difficult to find people who have a clear knowledge of these things.

There's an Irish language section of the discussion board at the People's Republic of Cork website: http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&dayspr une=-1&f=20

(I didn't know whether you'd ever tried some of your questions there, so I thought it worth mentioning.)

I was unfamiliar with "fáidhe" as a plural form so I cannot speak to that with any authority, but I've found that most internal "dh" occurences go unpronounced, or if they're situated between vowels, sometimes they create a diphthong (mar shampla "radharc" nó "gadhar").

I meant /nə fɑ:/ above. But I note that PUL's translation of the Gospels has na fáidhí as well as na fáidhe, so I am thinking of /nə fɑ:i:/.

Séamas de Barra tells me that the plural is /nə fɑ:gʹi/ in Corca Dhuibhne and this is what I would imagine to be correct in any case.

I think PUL's fáidhi as opposed to na fáidhe is just another way of rendering the final unstressed vowel and not of any particular importance.

Cionaodh, none of the posts on the People's Republic of Cork website evinces a knowledge of the Cork dialect of Irish. I suppose that tells its own story. In fact, the number of people who could give authoritative information on the Cork Irish is very low - I was told by one of the stronger speakers in the Gaeltacht that "tá na ba ag géimrigh" is wrong - as it should be "géimreach" - ie, the knowledge of the feminine verbal nouns in -ach that become -igh after "ag" has gone. I asked details of a large number of word forms last time I was in Cúil Aodha, and found out that the native speakers didn't know the answers. One example was the pronunciation of aindleathach. If you consider how ainspianta is annspianta in traditional Cork Irish, it is possible that aindleathach is to be pronounced as anndleathach. But the person who asked - who was sufficiently clued up on Irish to have just published poetry in the Irisleabhar Magh Nuadhat - didn't use the word and so simply didn't know the answer. I tried the phrase "sin arb eol dom", to check usage of "arb", and this person had no idea what that meant either.

My impression is that there are one or two people in their 90s in the Cork Gaeltacht who could give a view on something, but who you couldn't spend too long with, or ask too detailed questions. Apart from them, there is simply no one with a detailed knowledge of the traditional version of Cork Irish.

When I started learning Cork Irish, I was unaware at the time that it was virtually a dead dialect, and that if anyone speaks the full traditional form, the number of speakers is likely to be in single figures. Anyhow, I don't think there is anyone on any forum in Co. Cork with a good knowledge of the dialect. The only way of finding out about the dialect seems to be to read old books, published before around 1940.

Do you remember how it was often asserted by a Lithuanian learner of Irish who influenced me greatly, and then asserted by me myself on Daltaí as a consequence, that the dative singular was in full vibrancy in Cork Irish, and that Standard Irish was a form of Irish that had no native speakers etc... I was in China at the time and it took visits to Coolea to realise that this is simply not true - no one would use "mnaoi" there, and the stronger younger speakers speak Standard Irish with some Munster verbal forms, like rugadar. But it seems that Standard Irish is quite adequate to express in written form the form of Irish that is spoken in the Cork Gaeltacht today. Apart from some synthetic verb forms, which not all speakers there use anyway (judging by the iGaeilge blog), everything else from "i ngach" to numbers like "ochtó a hoct" to "roimhe sin" is largely mirroring standard Irish.

Another thing I have been told in Coolea is to use glacaim followed by "le", eg glactar leis, not glactar é - but PUL used "glactar é", and to the extent that Coolea is a Gaeltacht at all, it seems to be a genuine Standard Irish Gaeltacht. To be quite honest, you can make a bit of fool of yourself in Coolea by insisting on all the old forms -- I am careful not to "correct" native speakers for this reason, although they know I am only interested in the old stuff.

I was told by a German lady on Oileán Chléire who claims to be an expert in Cork Irish that "fanacht" is the correct form of "fanúint" on Cléire, and that the Irish language could be considered truly dead if anyone said "éan farraige" instead of "éan mara" - both points are wrong. If people say fanacht on Cléire, that is because they are speaking Standard Irish, and PUL had "éan farraige" in his historical novel Niamh.

As far as fáidhe or fáidhí are concerned, PUL told Osborn Bergin that he thought sleighe (genitive of sleá(gh)) was pronounced sleithe. See http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c24/c24-280-284.pdf . I am thinking the reasons why Standard Irish has fáithe as the plural of fáidh is that fáidhe was actually pronounced with an h in the middle, according to the same principle. There doesn't seem to be anyone alive who could object to that statement anyway...

While I have enjoyed learning Cork Irish, I would advise anyone else to learn Galway Irish.

I think the forum of the People's Republic of Cork website is the last place to look for authentic information on West Muskerry Irish! From what I hear, the Irish language movement in Cork is pretty weak anyway, outside of the Gaeltacht areas I mean. I remember meeting a group from Cork city at the Oireachtas a few years ago whose information stand was emblazoned with "Gaeilge". They also had ads on the city buses with "Gaeilge" in them. No sign of "Gaelainn" anywhere in spite of Corkonians insistence on all things Corkonian being superior to everything else! I remember mentioning this to the same group at the Oireachtas and being met with blank expressions of incomprehension. Sad but true.

David stated above: "But it seems that Standard Irish is quite adequate to express in written form the form of Irish that is spoken in the Cork Gaeltacht today. Apart from some synthetic verb forms, which not all speakers there use anyway (judging by the iGaeilge blog), everything else from "i ngach" to numbers like "ochtó a hoct" to "roimhe sin" is largely mirroring standard Irish. "

- This is indeed a sad state of affairs but not at all surprising. As for the writer of the iGaeilge blog, he himself states that he adopts a "laissez faire" attitude to the written and spoken language and warns learners not to take what he writes as being accurate. So that's ok then! I suspect, though, that this individual and others are actively pursuing an agenda of "dumbing down" the language so that learners won't have to do any actual, er, learning. I firmly believe in setting a good example to learners from the very start.

As for "fanacht" vs "fanúint", as I said before in my email to you, three forms are used by good native speakers in Corca Dhuibhne: fanacht, fanúint and fant. Fuireach is also found. All are correct.

As for not learning West Muskerry Irish, and turning instead to Conamara, I would say why abandon Muskerry when we still have relatively healthy population of native Gaeltacht speakers of Munster Irish in Corca Dhuibhne?

I confess I've spent very little time on the PRC discussion board, not so much because of dodgy Irish, but rather because the topics discussed are usually of little interest to me.

David, your unfortunate discoveries in Cork come as no surprise to me, as Irish was already weak there when I first visited the region in the early 1980s. And when the community's use of Irish is weak, the likelihood of outside influences is increased. In contrast, the Dingle peninsula had (and mostly still has) a much healthier community of Irish speakers, however debased you may find their Irish as compared to early 20th century Cork Irish.

Your advice to learners to prefer Galway Irish is fine if all they want is a larger pool of potential conversants, but as Carmanach notes, there's nothing wrong with choosing today's Corca Dhuibhne Irish. Fluent speakers of any dialect can understand it.

What is more, the differences between West Muskerry and Corca Dhuibhne and Cléire, say, are interesting but are not massive. They are all Munster Irish and the similarities between them are much greater than the differences. If David wishes to hear "ag géimrigh" and "annspianta", "annsprid", "anndleathach", he can he hear these forms from many good speakers in Corca Dhuibhne.

I would advise David not to abandon his study of West Muskerry Irish but to bear in mind that if he wants to hear good native speakers he would need to make use of resources such as the archives of Raidió na Gaeltachta, the Dept of Irish Folklore in UCD and Cartlann na gCanúintí in UCD.

No sign of "Gaelainn" anywhere in spite of Corkonians insistence on all things Corkonian being superior to everything else!
---------------------------------------------------

Not being Irish, I don't know much about rivalry between the counties, although I know the Cork vs. Kerry football match is a very important thing.

I was there last year when the football match was on, and I thought "what a cheek! So many Polish flags everywhere!" - until I found out the red and white flag was that of County Cork!

Of course, Cork was the centre of the Republic of Munster in 1922, and the last territory to be conquered by the Irish Free State...

I have a copy of "The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork" by Brian Ó Cuív.

It is a phonetic guide and would probably be a good resource for answering many of these questions. However, I don't see an entry for "Na fáidhe."

Ó Cuív says that the dental fricative and the velar ("dh" and "gh?") are indistinguishable in this dialect and “aidhg” and “aigh” produce the “ai:” sound.

Examples:

"Taidhg" "maighdean"


Exceptions:


Caidhp = kəip

Saidhbhir = sev’ir’


I don’t claim to understand this stuff.

(Message edited by jimnuaeabhrac on September 30, 2010)

(Message edited by jimnuaeabhrac on September 30, 2010)

Sorry they produce the "ai" not "ai:" sound.

A Jim, "IWM" = The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork. Tá an leabhar céanna ag David cheana féin.

LOL!

fanacht, fanúint and fant. Fuireach
---------------------------------------

Well, fuireach is the same as fanacht, with the n pronounced quickly and turned into a slender r, and the t dropped off at the end. They look different in writing, but in pronunciation are closer:

/fnɑxt/
/frʹɑx/

actually this is an interesting question - because I read somewhere on the more northern influence on Kerry Irish - you find forms like "cinnte" for "deimhnitheach/go deimhin" in the works of the Blasket Island. I think they would have got this from Galway.

And to be quite honest, while I think it important to keep to your dialects for authenticity's sake, that does not mean that the dialects are as separate as often thought.

I have wondered in PUL's writings whether he is borrowing from other dialects, or whether forms viewed as, eg, Ulster, are actually found in Muskerry too. Take these 2 points:

1. Thig liom "I can". Viewed as Ulster. But see these from Mo Sgéal Féin and Séadna:

* dá mba ná tiocfadh liom a dhéanamh ach a bheag féin, gur bh' fhearr é dhéanamh 'ná gan aon rud a dhéanamh, even if I could only do a little, it would be better to do it than not to do anything [MSF].

* cheapas go ndéanfadh an bhaintreach é. Má dhéin, níor tháinig léi, I thought the widow would do it; if she did, she didn’t succeed (she wasn’t able to do it) [Séadna].

* tá a fhonn orm leanamhaint siar ar an gceist sin go dtagaidh a réidhteach liom, luath nó mall, I have a mind to follow up that matter until I am able to solve it, sooner or later [Séadna].

* má thagan leat é chur ’na shuidhe sa chathaoir béidh an lámh-uachtair agat air, if you can get him sitting in the chair, you will have the upper hand [Séadna].

2. go mba is viewed as Connemara for gurbh. But look at these:

* do tuigeadh, leis, go raibh an gaol ann, agus go mb'fhéidir nár bh' fholáir col do réidhteach sar a ndéanfaí an pósadh, it was understood, too, that there was a relationship there, and that maybe it would necessary to sort out the impediment before the marriage was done [MSF].

* dúbhairt sé nár bh’fholáir iad do chuardach agus iad do chur thar n-ais sa Mhúmhain ag triall ar an muíntir go mba leó iad, he said they should be searched for and sent back to Munster to the people to whom they belonged [Séadna].

"go mba" is written up in textbooks as the Conemara form of "gur" - but as far as I can see doing a word search of PUL's books, it is used in WMI (West Muskerry Irish) before non-lenitable words. What I mean is that "gur leó iad" would be unclear as to the tense. It would look like present tense, because the l of leó can't be lenited, and so to clarify that it is the conditional tense being intended, PUL uses "go mba leó". And it would seem he used "go mba" instead of "gur" in the past or conditional before a consonant that could not be lenited. And he often seems to use "go mba" before a word starting with a vowel or f (go mb'éigean, go mb'fhéidir etc) - although he does not use the Conemaran "nach mba" in the negative (PUL has nárbh éigean and nárbh fhéidir). And yet with fearr, he says "gurbh fhearr" and there are no examples of "go mb'fhearr"...

So unless PUL is borrowing from other dialects, the real relationship between the dialects is much more complex than often thought...

Thank you Cionaoidh and Carmanach for your advice. I am not going to abandon West Muskerry Irish (I have been advised by Carmanach not to call it "Cork Irish", as there was more than one subdialect of Cork Irish), and maybe, instead of moving to Coolea, as I had thought of doing, I could move to Dunquin? But the house prices in Dunquin are still at a boom level, it seems. Does the Irish language push up house prices? or is it the scenery that influences it?

I notice there are 4 strong areas in Kerry. Ballydavid and Ballyferriter are getting weaker, but the two stronger areas are Dunquin and An Fheothanach. I see Carmanach's point, that you can learn Cork Irish and speak it in Kerry - and they are in fact relatively close.

But can anyone advance a view on whether it would be better to live in Dún Chaoin or an Fheothanach? I wonder if the population is higher in DC and so it is better to be there?

quote:

Does the Irish language push up house prices? or is it the scenery that influences it?

The scenery. Two out of three houses in Dún Chaoin are empty most of the year. And when occupied, frequently by those who know no Irish and don't wish to.

I'd say somewhere in the hinterland - but the real question is how you would integrate with the community. Otherwise you will not be exposed to Irish anywhere.

David: I'm afraid you're mistaken. Fuireach has no connection etymologically with fanacht though having a similar meaning in the modern language.

As for "cinnte", that is in fact quite rare in Corca Dhuibhne.

I would caution against viewing certain forms as "Connacht" or "Ulster" forms simply because they pop up in Corca Dhuibhne or West Muskerry. Tar + le in the sense of agreeing or conforming to something or someone is quite common in CD.

You see "go mba" is viewed as a Conamara feature. By whom? "Go mba" is also very common in CD.

As for where to live in CD - if you have a car, it doesn't really matter. My own personal preference would be Dún Chaoin but the population over at the north side from an Mhuiríoch up to Baile na nGall is much larger.

As for speaking Muskerry Irish in CD, Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin from Cúil Aodha used to live in Dún Chaoin I think and it was on Mám Clasach that he was tragically killed in 1991, if I'm not mistaken.

Perhaps the best way to integrate among the locals is to find yourself a wife from the area!

quote:

instead of moving to Coolea, as I had thought of doing, I could move to Dunquin? But the house prices in Dunquin are still at a boom level, it seems. Does the Irish language push up house prices? or is it the scenery that influences it?

Dún Chaoin overlooks An Blascaod Mór and nestles just below Mount Eagle. You'd definitely be paying a premium for the scenery. As Aonghus points out, the prices are being driven up by those who purchase holiday homes but who by & large aren't going there to chat in Irish with the locals at Kruger's.

Have you looked at Baile an Fheirtéaraigh?

(Message edited by cionaodh on October 01, 2010)

The whole peninsula is quite expensive.

Yes, indeed, the peninsula is quite expensive. I tried to buy it lock, stock and barrel a few years back with the intention of turning it into the "Peig Sayers Land Celtic Theme Park" but even my lavish civil service salary wouldn't stretch that far. So, then I tried to rent it for the summer as my own personal "holiday peninsula" before I found out that I could rent Béarra for half the cost and have a jacuzzi thrown in.

Bhíos sa Daingean an tseachtain seo a chuaigh tharainn agus labhair gach aon duine Gaelainn liom. An fáilteoir sa Dingle Bay Hotel, an freastalaí sa bhialann ar maidin, agus an siopadóir a dhíol an cóta báistí liom. Bhí neart Gaeilge aige siúd agus bhíomar in ann fadhbanna geilleagracha an domhain a phlé agus a réiteach in imeacht deich nóiméad. An-shásúil.

Bhí An Chonair cineál scanrúil áfach agus níos scanrúla fós an bóthar aduaidh ó Camp go hAughlish thar Shliabh Mís agus Caisleán na Mainge á lorg againn. Seachnóidh mé an bóthar sin an chéad uair eile a bheidh mé in "Pegland".

Ghaibheas-sa an Chonair anoir ar mo rothar ábhar blianta ó shin!

@Taidghín

Lasmuigh den bhiaiste turasóireachta, cinnte.

It must be lovely to have as the only point of debate when moving whether there are Irish speakers, and what type. Do you think about employment, or are you independently wealthy? I don't mean really for you to answer, it just must be nice. As for location, where are all these people whom you confer with living? Why not try moving near them?

Jim, there is no entry for "na fáidhe", but there are phonological rules, and you can see paragraph 348 on p 110 for how "bráighe" is pronounced in West Muskerry Irish: /brɑ:/.

While Carmanach was told by an expert in Corca Dhuibhne Irish that "fáidhe" would be /fɑ:gʹi/ in Kerry, it is important to realise that that is a different dialect with its own rules.

Page 111 of IWM says that medial gh (and it was stated earlier on in that section that medial dh and medial gh have the same rules) can become g, but only "exceptionally", and none of the examples given seems analogous to fáidhe. It is important to note that the CO plural is fáithe. In case of any doubt, the CO plurals would all be accepted in any of the dialects, which are under CO influence increasingly anyway.

Maidir le David agus

quote:

instead of moving to Coolea, as I had thought of doing, I could move to Dunquin? But the house prices in Dunquin are still at a boom level, it seems.

If you are hoping to hear strangers speaking Irish in your presence and pressing it on you as a "blow-in" I think you will be disappointed. For that to happen you need to have much better Irish than everyone else and you have to be employed as a deontas-dispenser. With the prospect of receiving largesse you will be welcomed into houses where everyone speaks the most scintillating of traditional Irish. Once the forms have been signed and you have departed the real occupants will return and the obliging neighbours who helped out will return to their own English-speaking homes.

I don't believe that ever happened. It's a Gaeltacht myth.

Nevertheless, if you move to the Gaeltacht you will find you get on better with the "expats" than with the "locals" who may prove "clannish" etc. Unless you can earn prestige by providing employment or even generosity in the pub the locals will pay as little heed to you as you do to your present neighbours.

If you do a bit of research and find a genuinely Irish-speaking family in an Irish-speaking area and lodge with them making all the arrangements through Irish. Never let them hear you speaking English. Since you will now be a valuable contributor to the family income they will be delighted to speak Irish to you -- unless they discover you don't understand them. You've got be very good at Irish to engage native speakers in conversation. They are impatient of learners who haven't learnt much Irish and won't speak English which they know well. That *&^%$es them off! If you want a good Irish speaker to come in and teach you Irish put an ad in the local MACE or SUPERVALU.

Alternatively wear a T-shirt with "Is breá liomsa Gaeilge a labhairt!" on it wherever you are now (in Ireland?) and you will be surprised at people's reaction on your next visit to the local street, shop, post-office, church, school-gate, library, pub, or public park.

Thanks David,

I mostly read Munster Irish but almost never get a chance to speak as gaeilge. I bought IWM because I thought it would help with vocabulary, but of course I was disappointed in that regard.

>>>>the real question is how you would integrate with the community
---------------------------------------------------

yes - well the thing is in Coolea, there is a small handful of people who would try to help me, and Coolea is close to Cork and Killarney, so I would not be "stuck" in a rural community I couldn't integrate with. Basically I would have to take oral lessons whether I was in order to get repeated exposure, as otherwise I would make a nuisance of myself anywhere, but I am prioritising reading of early 20th century literature over speaking Irish - but it would be nice to ace the two!

My move to Ireland is not imminent, as my house in England has been for sale for one year with no interest shown in it!

Peigland - sounds more like tír na sean than tír na n-óg

In my view Dún Chaoin and Feothanach are too small and scattered. Dún Chaoin has no community centre and Kruger's isn't even open for large parts of the year. You'll find enthusiastic speakers of Irish (non-native) at the Dún Chaoin hostel, however. The couple who run the place (my former employers) speak Irish amongst themselves all the time and love to use it with guests, whatever their level.

Baile an Fheirtéaraigh would probably be the best bet, and all the other villages and townloands are close by, as well as in Dingle where I actually heard Irish quite a bit.

Are you fluent in Irish or are you merely interested in the minutiae of written Muscraí Irish?

Jimnuaeabhrac,

IWM is an absolutely terrific book, however - don't be disappointed with your purchase. I have grown to love it!

One good way of learning vocabulary without keeping on consulting the dictionary is to buy Fiche Blian ag Fás and the English edition, 20 years a growing - and read them side by side. I have both books on my bedside cabinet, and generally only read one paragraph before I go to sleep - but if you can read one paragraph a night, and compare the English and the Irish versions, it will be a help!

I have to say there are some sentences in one language version that are not in the other - I think the English version may be working off a slightly different Irish version - but it is only an occasional thing you notice. Most of the time, you can get an exact correspondence by comparing the two versions. I would prefer a lot of side by side versions - ie the Irish on the left hand page and the English on the right hand page...

David, stick to Muskerry Irish and speak it when you go to Corca Dhuibhne. I'd doubt the locals would even notice since they are almost the same apart from some features.

If you want to be immersed with Munster Irish, I'd advise you to go to Corca Dhuibhne for your holidays instead of Muskerry. Plently of Irish around Ballyferriter way.

A lot of the regular Irish speakers from West Muskerry head down to Corca Dhuibhne during the festivals and you'll see a good many of them at the Oireachtas, even more so this year I imagine as it's taking place in Killarney.

One of the businesses I admire in Corca Dhuibhne is Louis Mulcahy's pottery. It is one of the few businesses in the area where the staff all speak to each other in Irish, and where there is always a warm welcome for those customers with the cúpla focail as well as those who are líofa.

AS regards house prices, the best value west of An Daingean is to be had towards Baile na nGall, Feothanch and back towards Cuas a' Bhodaigh. Mind you houses don't seem to be selling well at the moment (at any price)