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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (September-October) » Archive through September 19, 2010 » Issues in Muskerry Pronunciation - Part 2 « Previous Next »

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David Webb from corkirish.com (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

6. Brian Ó Cuív insists that /lh/ as in "molfad" is different to /hl/ as in "shloinne". The first is l+h and the second is a devoiced l. I would argue that the h in /lh/ is frequently impossible to hear - it may be that it partly devoices the l to the point that /lh/ tends towards /hl/, although the devoicing is not as total as in /hl/. At least, it often sounds like there is nothing there after the l. But Eoiní's audio files have a clear h in the /lh/ words - after we had discussed the pronunciation. Anyhow, I think "molad" as likely to be the pronunciation as "molhad". Maybe you could say there is a very, very fleeting h in normal pronunciation.

7. In traditional Cork Irish, many spelt "lt" are pronounced "lh" eg /fɑ:lʹhi/ for "fáilte", but I think you would struggle to find speakers conservative enough to have /lh/ here. At least in the 1940s this was still fully alive, with new words like "rialtas" being pronounced /riəltəs/, but "bean rialta" being pronounced /bʹan riəlhə/; I think /bʹan riəltə/ would be almost universal nowadays among those residents of Muskerry who can speak Irish at all.

8. Brian Ó Cuív insists there is an h in /mh/ as in "cúmtha", and Eoiní did pronounce it like that, but I think these h's often drop out too. The "Chromtha" in "Magh Chromtha" is transcribed /xroumhə/ in The Irish of West Muskerry but I don't know anyone in Muskerry who pronounces it like that. /xroumə/ or in fact /xraumə/ seems to be the norm - although maybe the m is partly devoiced? See also words like "stuama", which was "stuamdha" in the old script. This is transcribed /stuəmhə/ in IWM, but I note that PUL varied between the spellings "stuama" and "stuamdha" and Eoiní said there was no h in this word. I think it is like Magh Chromtha in that there is no real audible h, although I suppose you could partly devoice the m - although I'm not sure anyone would notice!

9. Brian Ó Cuív insists that /nh/ as in "dúnfad" is different to /hn/ as in "shnámh". The first is n+h and the second is a devoiced n. I would argue that the h in /nh/ is frequently impossible to hear - it may be that it partly devoices the n to the point that /nh/ tends towards /hn/, although the devoicing is not as total as in /hn/. At least, it often sounds like there is nothing there after the n. But Eoiní's audio files have a clear h in the /nh/ words - after we had discussed the pronunciation. Anyhow, I think "dúnad" as likely to be the pronunciation as "dúnhad". Maybe you could say there is a very, very fleeting h in normal pronunciation. If you listen to http://www.corkirish.com/pronunciation/broad%20nh.mp3 , you will see that Eoiní does say the /nh/ in "tráthnóna" - although this word doesn't normally sound like it has an h in it - but when it comes to "Breathnach", he says Breanách, illustrating my point.

10. Brian Ó Cuív insists that there is an h in /ŋh/ as in "teangthacha", but I think this h cannot be heard. At least I don't know anyone in Muskerry - and I am no expert - who says anything other than /tʹauŋəxə/. It is possible the /ŋ/ is partly devoiced by the th (which is not written in the Standard Irish anyway, but which is required to produce the correct diphthong under the phonological rules of Cork Irish).

11. Brian Ó Cuív insists that /rh/ as in "muinteartha" is different to /hr/ as in shrón. The first is r+h and the second is a devoiced r. I would argue that the h in /rh/ is usually impossible to hear - it may be that it partly devoices the r to the point that /rh/ tends towards /hr/, although the devoicing is not as total as in /hr/. At least, it usually sounds like there is nothing there after the r. Maybe you could say there is a very, very fleeting h in normal pronunciation. In fact, it is interesing that the word "búirth" (a lion's roar) is written "búir" in Standard Irish. In the transcription system of IWM, this word should be /bu:rʹh/, but the partial devoicing of the slender r is not considered in the Standard Irish spelling, and maybe few people in the Cork Gaeltacht make the distinction anyway. Another example is the word "ceathrú", which is supposed by Brian Ó Cuív to be /kʹarhu:/. Actually this sounds like /kʹaru:/ in most people's speech, possibly with a partial devoicing of the r? When I tried to say /kʹarhu:/, with an English h in the middle, I was told I was putting an extra "ch" into it, ie saying /kʹarxu:/, so /kʹarhu:/ with a full h in it is definitely not accepted as right in Cúil Aodha. Some people seem to say /kʹahəru:/, without the metathesis of the th and the r, but this is totally contrary to the rules presented in IWM. Another example is "máithreacha", which sounds like /mɑ:rʹəxə/, with or without some devoicing of the r, instead of what IWM says it is, which would be /mɑ:rʹhəxə/.

12. I should add that Brian Ó Cuív's assertion on p108 of his book that sc, st and sp have a VOICED g, d and b in Cork Irish would seem to be nonsense. I think it is questionable how deeply Brian Ó Cuív understood phonetics, and I think what he was meaning to say was that UNASPIRATED c, t and p are used after s, but I don't think these c, t and p are actually voiced. Of course, the one or two older speakers in the Cork Irish do insist on the spelling sg- , for the same reason, but sb- and sd- are less common.

13. Finally, Eoiní had no distinction at all between lámh and lá, so nasalization is certainly not a feature of Cork Irish today.

The most serious issues of pronunciation relate to /lh/, /mh/, /nh/, /ŋh/ and /rh/. I am wondering if Cork Irish has come under influence from the Connemaran pronunciation used in the media???

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 84
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

6. Well, Ó Sé says (§ 11) that unvoiced m, n, l, r occur at the beginning of a word and in one context in the middle of a word. He states that it is likely that the voicing begins before the end of those phones. He takes to be h + sonant consonant on a phonemic level. As for h + l in intial position he mentions that a more carefully produced pronunciation in slow speech gives /h + superscript schwa + l/ (sorry can’t find superscript schwa in Symbols!) also exists which would seem to suggest that /hl/ at least is not simply a devoicing of initial /l/. Séamas de Barra tells me that the /h/ in forms such as molfad can be heard clearly with some speakers but not with others, the /l/ though is unvoiced. As for /lh/ and /l´h/, Ó Sé (§ 27) gives dálta /dlhə/ and réiltín /rel´hin´/. The last example shows /h/ occurring clearly after the stress demonstrating perhaps that /lh/ is more than simply devoicing of the /l/, or is at least understood by speakers to be so. I would tend to agree with you though that the /h/ is normally fairly weakly articulated in forms such as molfad.
7. As for –lt- producing /lh/ or /l´h/, this seems to be far more common in Muskerry than Corca Dhuibhne. I think due to the very weak state of Irish in West Muskerry today you will probably hear many non-tradtional features in spoken Irish there. It might be a good idea to try and find some other speakers of an equal or higher standard than Eoiní Maidhc. I remember speaking to an old man who lived directly across from the hall in Cúil Aodha. His surname was Ó Duinnín. Anyway, if you can head to the local pubs, you may well see some of the better speakers huddled together at the bar! The Top of the Coom bar is probably your best bet.
8. I can’t see how PÓL’s spelling stuamdha would necessarily indicate actual pronunciation. Stuamdha being merely the old pre-standard spelling. As for the examples such as Maigh Chromtha you give, I’m sure some speakers use the /h/ while many others don’t.
9. I would say again that if possible it would be better to analyse the speech of more than one individual if possible and then see if the /h/ is indeed pronounced.
10. As for teanga, Ó Sé gives the following plural forms for Corca Dhuibhne
teangthacha /t´ouŋkəxə/
teangacha /t´aŋəxə/ /t´ouŋəxə/
teangaíocha /t´aŋi:xə/

The first example is very interesting as we seem to have /t´ouŋg/ + /h/ + /əxə/ resulting in total devoicing of the the final /g/ before /h/. Is it not possible that more than one form exists or existed in Muskerry as is the case in Corca Dhuibhne?

11 Is it possible that the speech of West Muskerry might have changed over time resulting in traditional features being lost? I would be loathe to criticise Ó Cuív’s methodology without further evidence from good native speakers, which of course are hard to find in modern West Muskerry.
12 Yes, I reckon you’re probably right, though c, p, and t may be partially devoiced in some situations. Ó Sé says that /g´/ in scéal and éisc is devoiced (§ 8). I don’t believe that the use of sg and sd in traditional orthography is completely unrelated to the historical pronunciation of the language.
13 Probably, but find some more speakers!

Your last point about Connemara influence – what do you mean?

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Carmanach
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Username: Carmanach

Post Number: 85
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 10:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Another interesting example from Corca Dhuibhne (§ 22) :

cruithneacht /krin´'haxd/, /kər'hn´axd/.

This would seem to indicate that even when the stress was shifted to the second syllable the /h/ was carried with it showing it to be more than a symbol marking devoicing of sonant consonant.



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