le daoine a rinne mé chomhfhreagras leo: with people who I corresponded with. An bhfuil sé sin i gceart?

Is cosúil nár tugadh: which one is correct?
Is cosúil nach tugadh:

le daoine a ndearna mé comhfhreagras leo - tabhair do d'aire litriú "comhfhreagras".

Is cosúil nár tugadh - briathar saor, aimsir chaite
Is cosúil nach dtugadh Seán aon airgead dá mháthair - aimsir ghnáthchaite, tríú pearsa uatha

Ailín

Yep Ailín has it. The lovely indirect.

But ... half remembering hearing that you have the option to use the direct relative by putting the preposition before the verb, I'm wondering would this be okay to use :

"na daoine lena rinne mé comhfhreagras?"

Does anyone know if this would be spoken at all?
Or is this just wrong, grammatically even?

Lena ndearna mé, in standard Irish
Lena dtearn/dtearr mé, in Donegal.

but I think nowadays most people would rather say "na daoini a ndearna/dtearn/dtearr comhfhreagras leo".

Ah okay that sounds much better, cheers Lughaidh. I'm not sure why I thought the direct relative was used when you pushed the preposition to the front. Great to know it's definitely not!

Lughaidh is right. "Na daoine lena ndearna mé" in the standard. Munster forms are:

na ndaoine lena ndeineas comhfhreagras
na daoine lenar ndeineas comhfhreagras
na daoine go ndeineas comhfhreasgras leo
na daoine gur dheineas comhfhreasgras leo
na daoine gur dhearnag comhfhreagras leo
na daoine lenar dhearnag comhfhreagras

The "d(h)earnag" (Ist person singular, past tense) forms come from Cléire but were probably used over a much wider area.

Connacht follows the standard: "lena ndearna mé", if I'm not mistaken

Sorry, typo in first Munster example, read "na daoine lenar dheineas comhfhreagras". I'm half-asleep today!

Is this 'deineas' a dependent form of déan too?

Dheineas is the Munster way to say "I did/made" (rinne mé in Standard & Connemara).

Oh, I thought they used Rinne in Munster too.

Okay so that's really interesting. Dein is their independent form for déan and so unlike the standard and Conamara the independent form can be used in this type of sentence.

This is one of the top coolest things I have learned yet. Thanks to you both!

No, I'm not aware of "rinne" being used anywhere in Munster with the possible exception of north Clare though I would need to go and check that. Dein is both the dependent and independent root of the verb in Corca Dhuibhne for the present, habitual past, present subjunctive and past subjunctive. Déan is the root for conditional and future and also for the verbal adjective. Note that dein is always pronounced "din", never with an "e". Here is the full paradigm of the verb dein in the present tense in Corca Dhuibhne:

dheineas
dhinis
dhein sé/sí
dheineamair
dheineabhair
dheineadar

Autonomous form: deineadh.

The root dearn is found in the past indicative in Cléire and probably over a much wider area and also in Muskerry perhaps, but I'm not too sure of that.

Thanks for that info! Didn't expect that dein would have the same forms for independent and dependent. But then less than half of the irregular verbs have special dependent forms anyway so it's not so out of touch.. it's just inconsistent with déan as I knew it.

Just wondering now why in Conamara do they spell it 'déan' as it is pronounced there as 'dein' (strong 'de' sound) or 'dín' (í sound) - more so than the long e sound.

(Ailín: Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge atá á fhoghlaim agam gan diabhal mórán ar m'eolas maidir leis na canúintí eile go fóill :) )

Ná háirimh é (don't mention it!). In fact apart from the substantive verb I can't think of any verbs which retain a special dependent form in Corca Dhuibhne. Indeed in Dún Chaoin the system has been further simplified by mostly getting rid of the forms gur, níor, ar, nár before verbs in the past tense and replacing them with their counterparts in the present, giving the following for example:

Deir sé go gcuais = He says that you went
An gcuais? = Did you go?
Ná(r) chuais? = Didn't you go?
Ní chuais = You didn't go.

The older dependent form deaghais, survives in Cléire, for example and possibly West Muskerry: chuais, ní dheaghais.

Go mba fada buan í.

How do you pronounce Ailín as a matter of interest?

Exactly as its spelt: /aˈlʹi:nʹ/.

Stressed on the first syllable outside Munster though, I guess.

Carmanach wrote:

quote:

Here is the full paradigm of the verb dein in the present tense in Corca Dhuibhne:

"dheineas" in the present tense? Surely you meant the past tense.

(Message edited by Taidhgín on September 11, 2010)

(Message edited by Taidhgín on September 11, 2010)

Yes, past tense.
In the present it's

deinim
deineann tú/deinir
deineann sé
deinimíd
deineann sibh
deinid/deinid siad
deintar (it breaks the caol/leathan rule actually)

Well, I don't know anything about how to use rinne or ndeárna - I don't know whether you need "lena rinne" or "lenar rinne" - as PUL didn't use these words anyway.

Na daoine lenar dheineas comhfhreagras - as far as I know this is correct.

Na daoine gur dheineas comhfhreagras leo - this flows better.

I am forever getting my fo-éadaí in a twist after reading posts about the indirect relative, only to realise how much simpler everything is in Munster.

Is cosúil nár tugadh - it seems it was not given
Is cosúil nach dtugadh Seán aon airgead dá mháthair - it seems Seán didn't used to give any money to his mother

This latter one could also be: ..ná tugadh...

Is cosúil nár tugadh: pronounced tugag or tugav (in Cork - you need to investigate your chosen dialect to be sure of your target pronunciation)
Is cosúil ná tugadh/nach dtugadh: pronounced tugach

autonomous forms:
is cosúil ná tugtar - it is not given
is cosúil nár tugadh - it was not given
is cosúil ná tabharfar - it will not be given
is cosúil ná tabharfaí - it would not or could not be given
is cosúil ná tugtaí - it didn't used to be given

In Connemara, "déan" is normally pronounced as "díon" or, less often, as "dion", note the broad n. As for the dependent past tense form, "rinne" is much more common than "dearna", so people say "ní rinne", "na rinne", "go rinne" etc.

To Taidhgín: Yes, apologies for mistake. The forms I gave are in the past tense.

To Lughaidh: Yes, outside Munster, stress would be on the first syllable in Ailín.

Lughaidh mentions "deinir" as an alternative form of "deineann tú" but I don't remember reading or seeing that anywhere and Diarmuid Ó Sé makes no mention of it. That's not to say that it doesn't exist of course but if I'm not mistaken the -ir ending in the 2nd person singular present indicative is used only in a handful of verbs in spoken Munster Irish. "Táir" is the only one I can think of at the moment.

To David: the past indicative autonomous ending -(e)adh is pronounced either /əx/, /əg/ or /əv/ in Munster depending on the area in question. /əx/ alone is used in Corca Dhuibhne. /əg/ appears to be principal form over most of Cork apart from the extreme south-west which uses /əv/. /əg/ was also the norm in east Munster (and still is in Ring) and also Kilkenny and south west Wexford before the language died out there.

Would be great to sticky this thread as it's pretty damn comprehensive for anyone learning about the relative.

The dependent form, not the relative :-)

LASID, Volume 1, page 241, shows dhein being the principal form in north Clare but very interesting indeed is that rinn(e) was used in the extreme south of Tipperary and in north Kilkenny. Just over the mountains in west Waterford, were found the usual dhein forms.

Carmanach, I don't think present-tense singulars in -ir are used anywhere at present. But they were found in writing at least, so Chapter 14 of Séadna has this: "“Má dhéinir mar sin,” arsa ’n sagart, “ceapaim gurab é céad aitheasg a dhéanfaidh Sadhbh a fhiafruighe dhíot go tur agus go teann cé dúbhairt leat teacht chun cainte léi'".

I don't think the -ir ending caught on as much in the present tense as in the future and present subjunctive. And those endings were not of real long standing - because I think there was something different there in Classical Irish. But deinir is found in literature, and táir (although arguably taoi is the real old form, along side tánn and taoin), and deirir is the other one found quite a lot, especially "cad deirir?", possibly because it sounded like the archaic "cad deire?"

But even in Séadna most of the verbs are not taking -ir endings. Ná féadann tú, pósann tú, labhrann tú are all found in Séadna.

Very occasionally, old second-person plurals in -thaoi are found. In PUL's Matthew 22:29, we read: "Táthaoi ag dul amú’ toisg gan eólus a bheith agaibh ar an Scriptiúir ná ar chómhachtaibh Dé". [Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.] I wonder if that archaism was introduced under the influence of Revd. Gearóid Ua Nualláin who edited PUL's Gospels - it was he who issued the Nihil Obstat.