Hi everybody here is my first message on this board. I'm from France, i'm a musician and play irish music and i would like to learn irish but i don't know which book to choose. Can you recommend one to me ?

I have read that "Learning Irish" is a good method but i have seen that in this book the pronunciation is written with the IPA and i don't know this alphabet. So i don't know if i can go for this book... i know there are the 4 cd's with it maybe it's enough to understand the pronunciation...

Thank you
Nicolas

Salut

Learning Irish est très bien quoi qu'un peu "sec" ni bien marrant, mais on va plus loin avec ce livre qu'avec tous les autres.
La transcription utilisée n'est pas réellement de l'IPA, mais la transcription phonologique irlandaise. De toutes façons y a les CDs avec, donc tu sauras comment on prononce, et puis ça t'aidera aussi à te familiariser avec la transcription phonologique, qui est assez simple en fait.
Au pire je t'aiderai si t'as des questions.

Merci de ta réponse Lughaidh, tu me conseilles donc cette méthode ? Je vais sûrement prendre un dico avec, tu en as à conseiller ou ils sont tous pareils ?

Nicolas

Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish is probably the best currently available as it focuses on a single dialect (Cois Fhairrge) rather than the mish mash of stuff normally dished out to learners. Ó Siadhail also uses IPA symbols but as Lughaidh points out, this is the largely broad phonemic transcription traditionally used in Irish monographs as opposed to a more narrow allophonic transcription. Nevertheless, it is a valuable aid to mastering the pronunciation of the language.

quote:

Merci de ta réponse Lughaidh, tu me conseilles donc cette méthode ?

yes.

quote:

Je vais sûrement prendre un dico avec, tu en as à conseiller ou ils sont tous pareils ?

Non ils sont pas tous pareils. Le blème c'est que les dicos sont pour la plupart écrits en irlandais dit "standard", et Learning Irish est pas en irlandais standard, il est dans un vrai dialecte. Du coup il y a certains mots de LI que tu trouveras pas dans les dicos (parce que y a quelques lettres qui changent), mais bon, les mots de LI tu les trouveras dans l'index à la fin de LI.
Y a un dico en français, le mien, cf dans ma signature. Mais il est surtout fait pour l'initiation, si tu veux en plus avoir davantage de mots et d'expressions, tu peux prendre le Collins vert ou bien le Focloir Poca. Tu les trouveras par exemple sur litriocht.com.

I've studied (and taught) linguistics, but to be honest I paid little attention to the IPA transcriptions in Ó Siadhail. For me it was far more helpful to listen, listen, and listen to the recordings, and practice them aloud, then look at the text.

An odd method, maybe, but it worked well enough for me that people said nice things about my pronunciation when I made it to Ireland for an intermediate course in An Ceathrú Rua. If you have an ear for music perhaps you have an ear for language as well, so listening will be a better guide than symbols on a page.

I found 'Learning Irish' to be very thorough and fairly dense, but it's a great choice, especially if you supplement with Nancy Stenson's books after about lesson 10 in Ó Siadhail.

Hello, i've ordered "Learning Irish" thanks !!
Is there a dictionnary in the dialect of the book ? Or maybe all the dictionnary are standard ?

Hi Curt, Nancy Stenson's book is "Basic Irish: A Grammar and Workbook" right ?

quote:

Is there a dictionnary in the dialect of the book ? Or maybe all the dictionnary are standard ?

Un dictionnaire de Cois Fhairrge, heu... pas que je sache, mais y a un dictionnaire de Ros Muc (Connemara, pas très loin de Cois Fhairrge) je crois, et un lexique dans le livre (téléchargeable gratos) sur Iorras Aithneach, pas très loin non plus.
Sinon, il y a des lexiques de différents dialectes aussi, mais c'est irlandais anglais ou irlandais-irlandais, et puis y a seulement les mots "spécifiques". Mon dico n'est pas que standard non plus, il y a beaucoup de mots dialectaux dedans aussi.

Nicolas, je peux t'en dire plus via e-mail, cf mon adresse sur mon site (le premier dans ma signature).

Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" has the advantage of substantial paragraphs of Irish in most chapters, with recordings of native speakers reading them, English translations in the back. For that reason alone it's worth buying, IMHO.

But it's a HARD book, very academic.

For a gentler but effective introduction, I prefer "Irish On Your Own" by Éamonn Ó Dónaill, but you'd have to buy it used online, because it's out of print.

Two hazards:

1. For some reason people keep trying to sell used copies of IOYO for $100 or more. Not necessary! Just keep searching and you'll find one for $20.

2. The used book stores often "forget" to mention they don't include the audio tapes! They are essential and it's pointless without them. But contact me () and maybe I can find you the audio as mp3s.

Last thing: IOYO is all in the Donegal dialect. Fine if you want to learn that, but it's a very distinct accent.

Yes, it's 'Basic Irish: a Grammar and Workbook,' and there's also 'Intermediate Irish: a Grammar and Workbook.' You can see brief previews of them on amazon.com.

I agree with the last comment that Learning Irish is pretty challenging, so the Stenson books are a really useful complement when you've got some basic vocabulary.

quote:

Last thing: IOYO is all in the Donegal dialect. Fine if you want to learn that, but it's a very distinct accent.

it's not really Donegal Irish, it's more like a blend of Donegal with standard Irish. There are things in that book that Donegal people don't say.

I think if you are a full-blown beginner it's a good idea to prep yourself for 'Learning Irish'. Something like the 'Buntús Cainte' books. 'Learning Irish' is amazing and has to be the best in town but if I was starting out with no knowledge of Irish I'd want to bridge the gap.

Hi Nicolas!

I wouldn't want to discourage you from learning Connemara Irish, as that's exactly what I did myself, based on the very same "Learning Irish" by O Siadhail. But, as you say you're a musician, it's just occured to me that perhaps you might be more interested in learning Donegal Irish, as some of the best-known Irish-language groups (Clannad, Altan etc) hail from that region. Also, I've heard lots of people praise the Oideas Gael courses run in Gleann Colm Cille. So you see, there are many attractive options. :)

Good luck! Go n-éirí leat!

Onuvanja

Thank you !
I've ordered "Learning Irish" so it's too late for change and i'll do my best with it. By the way do you know in which dialect sing singers like Darach O Cathain or Seosamh Ó hÉanaí ?

Seosamh Ó hÉanaí was from Carna, in Connemara. For D. O Cathain, I don't know. (tiens pourquoi j'écris en anglais? :-) ).

Tu peux apprendre les bases avec Learning Irish et changer peu à peu ce que tu as appris pour aller vers un autre dialecte; moi aussi j'ai appris les bases avec Learning Irish, et je parle l'irlandais du Donegal à 100%.

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darach_%C3%93_Cath%C3%A1in

Maimín, Leitir Mór. (Also Connemara)

He live most of his life in Rath Chairn, but the dialect there is also Connemara.

(Message edited by aonghus on September 09, 2010)

Merci Lughaidh pour la réponse ! Si t'écris en anglais c'est qu'on est sur un forum anglais après tout :-)
D'ailleurs y a t'il un forum français sur l'irlandais ?

heu, y a des salles de forums où on peut parler de l'irlandais, comme http://www.forum.guide-irlande.com/forum.html (salle "Culture irlandaise"), sinon j'en connais pas. Les francophones vraiment intéressés par l'irlandais se comptent presque sur les doigts d'une main, malheureusement...

(Message edited by Lughaidh on September 09, 2010)

Nicolas,

If your aim is to actually speak the language, I would recommend you to use "Learning Irish" side-by-side with another book by Thomas Ihde and Maire Ni Neachtain titled "Colloquial Irish". This deals with the same dialect and has a more communicative approach, using real-life dialogues.

That way, you'll be able to hold a (brief) conversation right from the beginning and get more satisfaction out of your hard work! :)

While "Learning Irish" is very systematic and enables you to grasp how the language works (I would almost classify it as a work of reference, rather than a textbook), it unfortunately doesn't teach you how to start the simplest conversation.

At a further stage, I would also recommend "Turas teanga", a multi-media course for the intermediate level and very useful for enlarging your vocabulary.

Bon courage! :)

Thanks !
I'm waiting for "Learning Irish" and later i'll see if i can have a look to "Colloquial Irish". By the way i have the iPhone and i have seen that there is the irish dictionary Collins on it. does someone know about this app ? It's only 7€ : http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/collins-pocket-irish-dictionary/id330122540?mt=8

Lughaidh, j'ai vu le site sur Guide Irlande, il n'y a pas l'air d'avoir beaucoup de conversations malheureusement.

Ben je sais, c'est que peu de francophones s'intéressent vraiment à l'irlandais...

A part ça, si tu me files ton adresse mail je peux pê te donner d'autres infos et te faire faire des économies ;-)

Je t'envoie un mail

Bonjour Nicolas,
Here is another french guy taking part (from time to time) in this forum .
Je suis très intéressé par l'Irlandais depuis très longtemps.Je l'apprends depuis mon enfanc; avec des moments où je peux m'y consacrer et des moments où malheureusement je n'ai pas assez de temps.
j'ai commencé par "Teach Yourself Irish" que je trouve un très bon bouquin . Mais j'ai la version ancienne. je ne connais pas la nouvelle version .
Anyway, tu as déjà acheté "Learning Irish" so take the best of it .
En tous cas, Bienvenue sur ce forum
à bientôt.

L'ancien TY Irish est en irlandais de West Cork : très bien.
Le nouveau est en standard, donc peu d'intérêt, pour moi.

Salut !
J'ai reçu le livre et attaqué la leçon 1 avec les prononciations. Très sympa pour l'instant. Faut que je me fasse à l'écriture phonétique mais il y a une "table des sons" à la fin pour aider et puis le cd avec les locuteurs qui parlent vite !

La table des sons est approximative, en général.
Les locuteurs parlent vite, mais pour les listes de vocabulaire ça va.
Ce qui est bien c'est que pour une fois les locuteurs enregistrés parlent vraiment comme on parle en Connemara (contrairement à un certain nombre de méthodes - pour ne pas dire la plupart - où les enregistrements sont faits par des locuteurs non-natifs qui ont un accent d'anglophones...).

Learning Irish is good but difficult.CD's also available. I've just bought Colloquial Irish with the CD's which I think is easier, and better. Both Connemara Irish.
Turas Teanga isn't much good, constantly changing from one dialect to another. TG4 online now isn't much good either. TG4 don't do anything to help people learn Irish.
I recently attended a course at Áras Mháirtín Uí Chadhain in An Cheathrú Rua, ( Carraroe ) not great as two of the three teachers aren't from the area.
If you want to learn Irish don't worry about dialects, if you actually want to go to Ireland and speak the language pick a dialect and stick to that one.
There are basically three Donegal, Connemara and Kerry.

Dia dhuit
Nicolas atá orm. Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú ?

I was wondering how was pronounced my name in Irish, does someone know ?

My advice to anyone learning Irish is to stick to one dialect and learn its sound system and internal grammar well but also make sure that you understand the standard spelling and grammar as laid out in An Caighdeán Oifigiúil and Niall Ó Dónaill's dictionary. You should buy both of these texts and have them to hand. Learners often forget that An Caighdeán Oifigiúil was never intended to be a spoken standard for the language but a written standard to be used in official documents. Unfortunately, school teachers ignored all of this resulting in the sort of pidgin Irish that we hear all too often today. The fact that no native speakers actually use the CO in their everyday speech was conveniently ignored. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the CO is a pretty good compromise spelling system but as I said, it was never intended to be spoken, just written.

To get a good overview of the main features of each of the principal dialects the series of books entitled An Teanga Bheo can be useful. Of these there are four: Corca Dhuibhne, Cléire, Conamara, Cúige Uladh.

Getting a grasp on native pronunciation can be difficult for learners as they all too often have only other learners around them to learn from and as we know over ninety per cent of Irish language learners in Ireland speak Irish with a strong Anglophone accent and intonation. Bizarrely, this is sometimes a deliberate decision as I've heard some individuals say "But I'm not from Conamara! I don't talk like them! I'm from Cabra!". Of course this sort of thing emanates from romantic Irish nationalist ideology in which every person in Ireland is a "native speaker" of Irish simply through being born there. Imagine if a learner of French refused to study the French of Paris or Lyon because they are "not from Lyon and don't talk like them!". Only from the sort of green-tinted romantic nationalism of Ireland could such nonsense emanate.

In conclusion, I would say any course which offers the learner texts and audio based on the language of actual native speakers is the one to choose. And don't listen to bigots whinging about Donegal Irish. Donegal Irish is beautiful and as rich as any other type of Irish. As for those who claim not to understand it, that is complete bollocks, if you pardon my French. Donegal Irish isn't half as hard to understand as some would claim.

Right, rant over!

Rant seconded.

With the sole proviso that it may not be possible for those who have to use what resources and teachers that come their way.

Thanks for the answer ! Right now i have "Learning Irish" in the Cois Fhairrge dialect. In which dialect is the Niall Ó Dónaill's dictionary ? As i have just started i'm focusing on the Connemara dialect !

quote:

In which dialect is the Niall Ó Dónaill's dictionary ?

It defines the standard spelling, but contains many variations, some of which are dialect specific.

It is *the* Irish->English dictionary.

Ó Dónaill does indeed show standard spelling but also dialectal spelling, typically with the abbreviation var. in brackets after the main entry. Another extremely valuable dictionary, indeed in my opinion by far the best Irish dictionary, is Dineen's Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla though I would not recommend you to buy this until you have reached a sufficient knowledge of the language. Dineen used pre-standard spelling and is printed in the old Gaelic script using the sí buailte to indicate lenition for example. Dinneen's dictionary is a veritable encyclopedia of the Irish language.

As for Ó Dónaill, I have just one quibble to make: he doesn't show where each lexical item comes from. Dinneen normally does. That's the beauty of Dinneen. As for a good English-Irish dictionary, we are stuck with Tomás de Bhaldraithe, which is not a great dictionary but the best we currently have.

Probably the best English-Irish dictionary, in my opinion, is Mac Cionnaith, which is sadly out of print. If you get your hands on one, pawn the family jewellery to buy it if you must. It is worth every single penny. Unfortunately though, finding the "mot juste" requires a lot of rummaging in Mac Cionnaith, but the journey there is as much fun as finding what you are looking for!

quote:

Right now i have "Learning Irish" in the Cois Fhairrge dialect. In which dialect is the Niall Ó Dónaill's dictionary ? As i have just started i'm focusing on the Connemara dialect !

The dictionary will have 99% of what you're looking for. If it is a regional spelling, then there is always a reference to the standard spelling if it is different. It will see you through to the advanced level.
As for dialect, keep in mind when going through Learning Irish that Cois Fharraige is a sub-dialect in Conamara. At certain points he shows you the variation in that area (silent th's comes to mind). You choose which way to go, but keep in mind that some variations in there are even more narrow than the general Conamara dialect. I would try to be familiar with them all since the Galway area is pretty dynamic.

I think it better for a learner to learn the primary traits of one of the three major dialects rather than getting bogged down in local minutiae at such an early stage in their learning. The differences between Cois Fhairrge and Conamara, or West Muskerry and Corca Dhuibhne or Gaoth Dobhair and An Ghaeltacht Láir are minor in terms of the overall dialect area to which they belong. Indeed, the same largely holds true for the Irish language as a whole. There are differences between the three major dialect areas but there are far more similarities.

quote:

I was wondering how was pronounced my name in Irish, does someone know ?

En irlandais c'est Nioclás, prononcé à peu près Nyéklass (accentué sur la première syllabe).

quote:

Bizarrely, this is sometimes a deliberate decision as I've heard some individuals say "But I'm not from Conamara! I don't talk like them! I'm from Cabra!". Of course this sort of thing emanates from romantic Irish nationalist ideology in which every person in Ireland is a "native speaker" of Irish simply through being born there. Imagine if a learner of French refused to study the French of Paris or Lyon because they are "not from Lyon and don't talk like them!". Only from the sort of green-tinted romantic nationalism of Ireland could such nonsense emanate.

I'm happy to read that, written by someone else than me -- be careful, you may be insulted by someone because of that (I was). Maybe what you wrote there will be more accepted since you're Irish...

quote:

Donegal Irish isn't half as hard to understand as some would claim.

sure, actually it's the most understandable to me lol, I have more difficulty with Connachta and Munster, which means that dialects understanding is more a matter of habit...

quote:

Probably the best English-Irish dictionary, in my opinion, is Mac Cionnaith, which is sadly out of print. If you get your hands on one, pawn the family jewellery to buy it if you must.

I've found a copy on Abebooks a couple of years ago. Maybe you may found another second hand copy there...

In the meantime you can use this dictionary, which was a precursor:

http://www.archive.org/details/englishirishphra00mckeuoft

I saw a copy of the bigger one on Abebooks for €50. Go to abebooks (www.abebooks.fr) and type in "Mc Cionnaith" under author. The seller is Dublin Bookbrowsers.

I think we are getting the term "native speaker" mixed up with a native of Ireland. I am not an native Irish speaker nor will i ever be , i think that you have to be raised with Irish in the home to claim this , but then again i dont agree that you have to live in a Gaeltacht to do this. I am a native od Ireland with the Irish mindset and culture that comes along with that. I dont believe you can teach a person to be a native speaker or a native of a country that they were not raised in , although there may very well be exceptions to this as with everything there is no 100% hard and fast written rule. As for going round and learning every dialect , that just seems crazy when most people generally stay within their own catchment area and live and use what is used in their own particular part of the country. As a learner i agree that you should learn one particular dialect and hopefully the rest will follow with listening to songs , radio, television and visiting various parts of the country and course and meeting people with various other dialects, to me that seems natural. I am not from a Gaeltacht area and have been raised most of mf life with English , so to erase that would be a job that im sure is almost impossible. So i learn Irish and speak it regularly in my own native non-Gaeltacht area part of Ireland in my own native tongue , which could be considered to be English. I would just feel foolish and false to adopt the blas of a native speaker of say Gaoth Dobhair for example , and i would i think looked at strangely by those whom i speak with regularly , wondering why i would do such a thing. Yeah its right that you should learn the sounds and wors and spellings etc as best as you can , but then speak with the accent that you have been using all your life in the country that this native language belongs to.
why shoud i say , a hart ,when everyone i know says a hocht , why would i say D'eye a, when everyone i know says D ir a = Doire

Sneachta,

I think you are mixing up accent and pronuciation; they are not the same thing.

My accent varies a lot depending on whether I am speaking English, Irish or German.

i dont think i am. isnt an accent how you pronounch something , maybe i have it wrong. Yeah it wold be weird to speak German or Italian in an Irish accent , but thats my Point im Speaking Irish in an Irish accent ...

im not sure if i am , i thought accent was how you pronounched something, maybe im wrong. I agree it would be weird to speak German Italian in an Irish accent , but im speaking Irish in an Irish accent , thats my point.

No. One can pronounce words correctly, but still have a noticeable accent.

That is why there are two different words for two different, but related, concepts.


Also, there is a difference between "An accent found in Ireland" and "An accent which is natural to the Irish Language"!

(Message edited by aonghus on September 16, 2010)

No. One can pronounce words correctly, but still have a noticable accent. ( i agree)

That is why there are two differnt words for two different, but related concepts. ( not sure what this means)


Also, there is a difference between "An accent found in Ireland" and "An accent which is natural to the Irish Language"!( you sure ? isnt something thats said in Ireland natural enough .... )

Seconded.

I was sure Sneachta would wake up and protest lol

You did invite me lol

im not protesting , im forwarding my opinion as is everyone is entitled too , you dont have to agree , its called debate lol

Debate is not very productive if we can't agree on semantics (what words mean).

Opinions are well and good in matters of taste; but the opinion of someone such as Ailín or Lughaidh, who have studied matters of pronunciation, carries more weight when facts are being discussed.

(Message edited by aonghus on September 16, 2010)

I though that you were Fairer than that Aongus. Debate is about, Debating and trying to stay calm and put your point across as best as you can , Personally im not a big fan of debates as they generally run on and on and resolve nothing and generally get frustrated and heated.
Opinions are well and good in All things that are fair. I agree certain people can have more knowledge in certain fields , but those who are closed to debate and even the possibility that they may learn more or may even have been wrong .. well Ní bhíonn saoi gan locht.

Sneachta,
Basic principles to hold to:

1) You should try to pronounce like the people from Donegal, the native speakers of your region.
2) Your accent will take care of itself.

If you keep this in mind, then you'll get the Irish and not lose your heritage from Derry. Believe me, unless you're one of those great learners who can put on accents like actors, you'll not lose your Derry-ness.

Also Gaoth Dobhair is one flavor of Donegal, albeit a major one. There are people in Donegal who are natives who say things the way you describe.

sorry to disagree a bit with ya Seánw ,
1) Why? , i have an legitimate Irish accent , albeit not a Gaeltacht one , but im not Gaeltacht ? i really dont get this at all ? that i should pronounce like someone from Donegal ... can Anyone explain? im not from there !!!
2) im sure it will . lol
I have the Irish and i havent lost my own accent. Yeah people in Gaoth Dobhair do speak the way i describe , iv been there and i have friends who live here from GD , so they use their Donegal Irish , and i use the Irish i have and we generally have no problem .. there only seems to be a problem on here or with linguists? im not sure if this is correct , and if so why ?

Thank you for your kind comments, Aonghus. They are greatly appreciated. Aonghus is entirely right about semantics.

To Lughaidh: I don't think you should ever have to apologise for telling the truth. Never be afraid of "insulting" the green knickers brigade and those Irish Anglophones who for whom the richness of native spoken Gaeltacht Irish is a source of embarrassment and derision.

I am a first language English speaker from Wexford. Irish is not the spoken native language of anyone in County Wexford today. It is, in effect, as foreign as French and Old Norse and Yola, three other languages once spoken in the county and now equally as dead as Irish. The idea that I should speak Irish, or indeed the other two languages I have some knowledge of - Italian and Irish - with the intonation and phonetic system of my native working class Wexford Town English is ludicrous, but nonetheless a common fallacy bought into by the green knickers brigade. Indeed, one poster above claims he would feel "foolish and false" were he to adopt the "blas" of a native Donegal speaker and that all his pals would think he had been smoking some herb again. Well, you could blow me over with a feather, Jim! Speak like a native speaker of Irish?! Are you serious?! Just think what that'll do to my street cred, dooode!!!!

Hi Sneachta, are you saying that you are resisting the very distinctive up down intonations of the Ulster accent as your own accent is different, maybe more level than the Ulster accent?

For all of us non native Irish speakers (and in my own experience) it's not that tough a nut to crack over time with effort. You focus on the pronunciation of the dialect you have chosen, listen lots to that dialect, get it in your head, pronounce as they do, perhaps even singling out a single speaker you love to listen to, then use your own accent to begin with if you wish and guess what, slowly but surely your own accent evolves and develops into what Aonghus is calling an 'Irish language accent'. There is a difference but you'll find it in time. In fact just notice how our accents can change when we go from place to place, country to country. They are not a stagnant thing.

All you need to do is throw yourself into a language and let it lead you.

im not here to agree with all of youse or to make youse agree with me, thats your own decision. As for green knicker brigade and street cred, im a firm believer that the Hard liners will destroy the Language long before it reaches the masses of the so called green knicker brigade and the people who think its cool to speak their own born and raised blas. iv seen No one put of by the so called knicker brigade or its lack of coolness , whereas i cannot say the same for the Nazi jackbot style of a certain click of Learners ,,

Aonghus,

"but the opinion of someone such as Ailín or Lughaidh, who have studied matters of pronunciation, carries more weight when facts are being discussed"

I have considerable training and qualifications and have taught Irish at teritary level.

I disagree with Ailín and Lughaidh and I believe that many Irish linguists would also.

In fact, I believe, that these attitutes actually inhibite the correct acquisition of correct Gaelic speech sounds - that is my view based on my experience.

(Message edited by ggn on September 16, 2010)

quote:

In fact, I believe, that these attitudes actually inhibit the correct acquisition of correct Gaelic speech sounds - that is my view based on my experience.

Would you care to elaborate on that? How can one acquire correct Gaelic speech sound by determinedly not using sounds used by native speakers?

How is one to know what "correct Gaelic speech sounds" are, other than by listening to native speakers?

(Message edited by aonghus on September 16, 2010)

I am not saying i disagree with Ailin or Lughaidh , but i think its unfair to point out such thoughts that they are more Knowledgable than others , when at this stage im sure we are all aware of peoples thoughts, opinions ,qualifications and ability, with the dinstinc possibility that this could offend others and discourage them from putting their thoughts and opinions forward in the future. Also to discourage debate is another factor i wouldnt agrre with, no matter how much i/we/you like or dislike it, i 100% agree it has a place and a part to play in forums like this, if people accept it for what it is i.e peoples thoughts and opinions Not Gospel.

lol

Ah, therein lies the problem and the confusion.

One must divorce the concept of speech sounds from accent.

The requirement that students must acquire a Donegal accent in order to speak a 'phonetically' perfect Ulster Irish is a false one in my view.

An accent / 'blas' is merely the final coating of paint - doesnt change what sort of car it is.

Insisting on a Donegal accent leads them to say, 'feck this - I have my own accent'.

They cannot distingush the accent from the sound system.

Hardly surprising as often the lecturer themselves fails, often deliberately to explain it, often due to their own personal preferences and politics.

All must leave their preferences and politcs at the door.

What I used to say is that 'one can speak perfect Irish Irish with the correct sounds, with whatever accent they want.'

The result is a better one I think than total rejection of Gaelic sounds due to an insistence of Donegal accent.

Intonation - that is for another day - a bit more complicated - but there are tricks.

The eternal fight between political ideology and science...

Who is insisting on accent? You appear to be making the same conflation of accent and pronunciation as Sneachta.

What Ailín said was:
"My advice to anyone learning Irish is to stick to one dialect and learn its sound system"

I agree that it is not easy for the untutored ear to distinguish accent from pronunciation. But they do differ.

"I agree that it is not easy for the untutored ear to distinguish accent from pronunciation. But they do differ."

Good point.

I used to play a trick.

I played recordings of Tyrone Irish, Louth, even Antrim.

Then I asked - where is that speaker from.

They always replied 'Donegal'.

But it can break the spell.

Sneachta,
I can say that my own view on this has evolved as I learn more of the language. I can't say my situation is at all the same, since you are in Ireland and probably view your English accent as a descendant of your Irish speaking ancestors, so if you produce Irish through your English accent, you will be restoring and honoring that heritage. It is a valid line of thought, but I would say false in some aspects.

I wouldn't think about "Gaeltacht" as region, so "not my region", but as people who are the bearers of the living language that you want to have. Think about it like genetics. You don't get African (that is racial characteristics) in your blood just by living in Africa, you've got to marry and have children with a black person. Your line of language descent has broken. Your Irish English is not Irish. Your accent is not an Irish accent, but an English accent. (I am speaking language here, not nationality.) That's the hard fact Irish people need to face about their culture -- you've been "anglofied" is so many ways it's hard to know which end is up. You've got to tap into a living lineage of Irish to get it back. You are not "going over" to the Gaeltacht, but you would be bringing the Irish back into Derry.

You got to be willing to imitate the cadences, tones, rhythms of the native speakers. I don't know how you speak, but it is usually clear when someone lacks the accent, or is heavily influenced by English. They may not be able to help it, but the difference is like night and day.

Finally, don't worry about it all. Just be humble and try to copy people in Donegal. Until you find a native in Derry, that's my advice.

(Message edited by seánw on September 16, 2010)

Aonghus, You have picked one small piece of a longer post, and throws the discussion outta context. We all do our best to Learn and speak Irish , some succeed better than others, some have higher standards and expections in their search for purity. I often why this never crops up in general converstaions and Comhrá that i take part in , its generally just that " Conversation. Not who has the best Irish or better grasp of grammar etc. To me Irish is Irish is Irish and is Primarilly for Conversation. Granted we are all aware that some people have got a nicer command of the language than others and a better understanding of grammar etc .. but thats true in all walks of life its natural within sport , music the work place.

@GGN

You don't seem to have answered my question? How is your approach different to that recommended by Ailín?

That learners find a reliable source, and emulate that source, in oder to get a firm grasp of pronunciation?

Sneachta, tá tú ag tosú comhrá nua, ag déanamh neamhaird iomlán ar an méid a chuaigh roimhe. Bhíothas ag plé an modh is fearr le Gaeilge a fhoghlaim, ní conas í a úsáid.

Is léir nach léir duitse go bhfuil difríocht ann idir blas agus foghraíocht. Ach tá. Ní ceist tuairime ná soiscéal atá ansin, ach fíric. Mura dtuigeann tú an difríocht idir an dá choincheap, conas is féidir leat an difríocht sin a phlé?

(Message edited by aonghus on September 16, 2010)

I agree Seánw , i speak Irish/English ... is there a cure,probably not. Would you recogonise me as English or Irish if i spoke English , i would say yes you would see me as Irish ,of that there is No Doubht. The same thing applies to Scotland and Wales. Do they speak English .. of course. Are they English ..of course not.

Do i have the same culture and mindset as English, Scotland , Wales , America , France ... No. I believe Language is way deeper than youse think it is , i believe its in the Blood, not only in the Text Books.

Tuigim go díreach, ach ní thuigim cad chuige a bhfuil tú ag scríobh as Gaeilge ag an phointe seo? Thats why we are here , to understand , sorry should i bow out till im more clued up... do you also disallow Ceisteanna ?

Cad chuig nach bpléadh muid as Gaeilge? Conas is féidir Gaeilge a fhoghlaim agus gan ar bun ach í á phlé as Béarla?

quote:

i believe its in the Blood

that's called racism, and it's complete bullsh*t...
I know foreign people (and I'm not talking about myself) who speak Irish better than you. So is the Irish language in the blood? lol
And have you ever noticed that most Irish people can't speak Irish? although you say it's in their blood! how strange!
I've never read anything that stupid.

Sea, bheadh sé deas sin a phlé i nGaeilg. Tchífeasmaid an bhfuil an teangaidh ins an fhuil nó in áit eile.

Tá fuil i mo theanga, ach tá amhras orm go bhfuil teanga i mo chuid fola....

Sneachta,
Don't mix up language and culture etc. Language (as our unique ability to speak) is the luggage which you unpack. Inside is the culture, etc. (and language with a lower case l). Now Irish and the culture have been together so long they are virtually inseparable, but someone is no less Irish if they speak English, but they have been cut off from some of their culture.

quote:

Do i have the same culture and mindset as English, Scotland , Wales , America , France ... No. I believe Language is way deeper than youse think it is , i believe its in the Blood, not only in the Text Books.

Language is real deep. I would say that it is just as innate to us as the soul. It is a power of the soul in my view. But you were a tabla rasa in your mother's womb. The fact that Ireland is mostly English attests to this. My wife is first generation American. Her Irish sense is quiet different than her relatives in Ireland, and she has a completely American accent. Not only are you separated from your ancestors by time, but also culture, mindset. Your language has been on a tangent, which cannot be reversed. The gift of your ancestors and your culture is that you have the language living in your midst.

"You don't seem to have answered my question? How is your approach different to that recommended by Ailín?"

Míneoidh mé an dóigh a ba ghnáth liom a dhéanamh nuair a bheas rud beag níos mó am agam - ach tá suim agam san ábhar seo - tá sé tábhachtach ábhartha faraor.

Sílim nach bhfuil mórán difear idir an rud atá tusa ag rá, agus an rud atá Ailín a rá; go bhfuil a leithéid ann agus foghraíocht na Gaeilge, atá éagsúil ó fhoghraíocht an Bhéarla.

Seans go bhfuil béim eile agat i do mhodh oibre, ach sin rud eile.

quote:

Tá fuil i mo theanga, ach tá amhras orm go bhfuil teanga i mo chuid fola....

lol, maith thú a Aonghus!

Sompla eile : Gabhann fear agus bean Spáinneach tachrán Éireannach ar altramas - nach labhrann go fóill. Abair gur fhág a mháthair é i ndiaidh a bhreithe nó gur cailleadh í nó rud inteacht
Tógann siad le Spáinnis é, ins an Spáinn. An mbeidh eolas aige ar an Ghaeilg, de thairbhe a chuid fola? Dar leat, a Shneachta?

. . . funny how me and Lughaidh etc. are said to be "hard liners" stepping out in "Nazi jackboots" while others believe that language is "in the blood" . . .

lol

Lughaidh, et al.
Mar shampla fosta: A lán Meicsiceach atá ina gcónái abhus anseo i gCalifornia atá Béarla mar theanga dhúchais acu – gan blas Meicsiceach. Ar dtús bheadh Spáinnis acu leis an bhlas Mheiriceánach, gan dabht. No entiendo, gabacho!

Pé scéal é nó nách é . . . . rud a dh'fhiarthaigh Lughaidh dhom i dtosach na cainte seo go léir againn, foclóir Mhic Cionnaith - cá bhfuaireas mo chóip féin? Cathach Books anso i mBleá Cliath tá trí mbliana ó shin. Cheithre fichid euro a bhíodar ad iarraidh air, ach fuaireas ar dhaichead é sa tsaor-reic. An mbeadh cóip do Réilthíní Óir nó Leabhar Sheáin Uí Chonaill ag éinne agaibh? Nó an bhfeadrabhair an bhfuil cóipeanna ag imeacht in aobhal? Táim á lorg lés na bliantaibh ach tá dulta dom teacht orthu go dtí so :o(

Quote:
Pronunciation is one of the hardest things for a learner of any language to get to grips with. The sounds of Irish and the sounds of English are very different from each other, and there’s always a temptation for the learner of Irish to use the English sounds closest to the Irish ones .... And it’s not just individual sounds, Irish has its own intonation, and a different stress upon certain words. My experience of teaching pronunciation is that it brings out resentment in some learners. They see it as an attempt to change their accent, or as someone once said to me, to get them to speak ‘like Donegal ones’. Of course your accent is an important element of your personality, and it’s no surprise that people get touchy about what they regard as criticism of how they speak. But that isn’t really the proper way of looking at it. You can speak Irish with whatever accent you want, as long as the sounds are correct. I know very good speakers who have a strong Glens of Antrim twang, or a fairly heavy Dub accent. But they speak Irish very clearly and precisely because they do certain things right. ... There’s not much point having a good grasp of grammar and a wide vocabulary if your speech is a bit stilted or even hard to understand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/beginnersblas/pronunci ation.shtml

(Emphasis mine.) You don't have to change who you are, or negate your heritage, but we need to do certain things right.

Racist lol.I never said that you and Lughaidh were the nazi jackboots. And as far as Gaeilge is concerned , Isnt it the rule of this forum to use both ? General Discussion ( English and Irish )

How do you know how well i speak ? Why is everything i say taken so liteally , are youse going outta your way to find fault ? Most Irish dont speak Irish , fair enough , so why are you bothering ?

Is dóigh gurb eol duit é, a Ailín, ach ar eagla nach mb'eol - is féidir an chéad imleabhar de "Réilthíní Óir" a fháil mar PDF:
http://www.archive.org/details/rilthnir01clunuoft

quote:

How do you know how well i speak ?

Chuala mé taifeadtaí dá dtearn tú.

And you are good enough and expert enough to Criticise my Irish based od a few online soundfiles ?
Someone who spent a weekend in Donegal.
My sound files are widely available , are yours , ?

As it happens, they are:

quote:

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Clearly stated in his signature.

Sounds , and a few sentences. Do you Teach Aonghus?

There is a lot of wisdom in what Seánw says. The phonology or sound system of a language is inextricably linked to its morphology, its syntax and semantics which governs the meaning of words and sentences. Phonological changes over time account for much of the modern forms of the Irish and English languages that we speak and hear today. In other words, what comes out of native speakers' mouths today, and what is used in general by particular groups of native speakers living in a particular geographical area among themselves has evolved over a very long time. One cannot divorce the sound system from the morphology and semantics of Irish. All are in constant interaction. Hiberno English has its own sound system, internal grammar, syntatical system and semantics etc which is related to a certain limited extent to that of Irish but is without doubt very different in almost all other respects.

The notion that speaking Irish as a first language Gaeltacht speaker would, or at least doing one's best to do so, is "foolish and false" or that one is "abandoning" one's own accent is utterly ridiculous. Yes! Of course you're endeavouring to abandon your own Anglophone accent when speaking another language which is not your own!! Talk about the bleeding obvious!!!

Why do French or German or Spanish learners not whinge like Irish learners do when told how to pronounce those languages as native speakers in France of Germany or Spain do? Why do Irish learners who are native Irish Anglophones spit venom and throw tantrums and hissy fits at anyone who says that they should take the speech of native Gaeltacht speakers as their model? Why do they label anyone who suggests as much as "jackbooted Nazis"? The key difference, the proverbial elephant in the room is Irish nationalist ideology, whereby generations of native Anglophones were told that since they were Irish, and Irish is the native language of Ireland, therefore everyone is a native speaker of Irish. Codswallop! Isn't it highly ironic that while the green knickers brigade demonise Hiberno English as an indigenous language of Ireland and an integral part of our culture they have no problem speaking Irish using the same sound system and intonation as English and peppering their Irish with idioms that require a knowledge of English to grasp what they mean!!

Now, no need for everyone to have the strife. Sneachta, you're philosophy concerning what an Irish language blas is, and whether you need it or not, is mistaken, I think. I haven't heard you speak, but you might even contradict yourself when you speak. The whole purpose of learning an L2 language to a high level is to lessen the influence of the L1! Sorry, but faint echos of Derry Irish are not natural to Irish. I think we may be now talking past one another.

Why do French or German or Spanish learners not whinge like Irish learners do when told how to pronounce those languages as native speakers in France of Germany or Spain do?talk about the bleedin obvious lol
they dont live in in an English dominated area , where Irish can be hard to come upon ... and havent been Brain washed.

Sorry folks I'd love to stick around here for another bit but I'm going to have to lace up my jackboots, kiss the Führer's portrait and head up to Club Chonradh na Gaeilge in Harcourt Street where a cold pint of Guinness with my name on it is waiting for me. That's where you'll find me if you want to continue this discussion. Even Sneachta is invited!!

To Abigail: You're an absolute star! Thanks a mil for the link!

Aonghus,

Silím go bhfuil difríochtaí i gcur chuige s'agam agus cur chuige Ailín.

Luíonn Ailín go soiléir thuas go bhfuil 'accent' mar chuid de chuid cur chuige s'aici sa phost thuas.

Chomh maith leis sin, luíonn Ailín, agus tá an ceart sin aige, ábhair maidir leis an fhéiniúlacht agus polaítíocht sa phost thuas.

Is é mo thuairim pearsanta féin go gcaithfear an pholaitíocht sin a fhágáil ag an doras.

(Message edited by ggn on September 16, 2010)

Ailín ainm "Carmanach".

I'm seeing that this is an old debate that's been had with Teifeach before.

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/42794.html?1241822507

etc.....

Almost the same stuff, cut and paste.

Ádh mór oraibh, anois, níl sé ach ag gabháil go fánach.

im not too sure why you mention me , the usual suspects are in both ... at least im consistant lol
Jackboots, Linguists and the green Knicker brigade lol

Sneachta, I mean no offense. I mentioned you because you've held consistently the view that your Derry accent is an Irish language accent. Everyone has their ways of discussing this with you, but that is just a distorted view of language accent. I'm not telling you leave behind Derry, but language doesn't work like that. One would think that the continuum of dialects could be restored in this way, but, again, language doesn't work like this. My father-in-law is a Dubliner. Believe me, he isn't restoring the glory of Leinster by purposely avoiding native speech attributes.

What do people think of Timothy O'Neill Lane's English-Irish dictionary 1917? http://www.archive.org/details/largerenglishiri00onei