My grandson started in our local Gaelscoil this week. Their practice is to translate all surnames to Irish in the roll book, (a practice that irritates me, I have to admit)

His surname is Fisher, quite a common name in Scotland where his Dad hails from, and this has been translated as O Bradáin. I could understand this if his surname was "Salmon", but surely there is a more appropriate "vocational" surname as gaeilge.

An bhfuil fhios ag aon duine?

quote:

(a practice that irritates me, I have to admit)

And a foolish one: it leads to the strange idea that english and Irish are for completely disjoint parts of one's life.

There are nearly no vocational surnames in Irish; but there might be some basis for Ó Bradáin as fisher.

Tá "Mac an Iascaire" ar fáil anseo
http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_M5.shtml

You have every right to be irritated.

Even though translating people's names may sometimes be possible in principle (as when the name is recognizably of Gaelic origin), it can be insulting. Some people don't like other people messing with their names and that should be respected. The basic rule for dealing with personal names should be that you, and not other people, get to decide what other people are to call you.

Now try explaining that to your Gaelscoil!

The following website has "Ó Bradáin" listed as Irish for "Fisher"

www.irishidentity.com

whereas,in Seán de Bhulbh's book "Sloinnte Uile Éireann" it is listed as "Mac an Iascaire"(Gaeilge) agus "Mac an Iasgair"(Gàilig)

D'fheadadh an dá rud a bheith ceart.

Bhí scéal ag Dubhghlas de hÍde, sílim faoi fear a thug "Bird" ar féin i Sasana.

Mac Con Aoire a bhí air ó cheart

Mac Con Aoire -> Mac Canary -> Bird!

According to Woulfe, Ó Bradáin is a translation of a translation in your case. Probably the worst part about such a practice is that it is imitating the practice which some people used to become un-Irish. I can understand people who have Irish last names which have been anglicized. Take those and show the kids that they're Irish, but if I moved to Ireland and had my boy in class and they tried to switch over my name, they can have a good time with that one because I'm not sure what it means, and yet my children are mostly Irish by blood! Plus I think it is a bit exclusionary. I think they should encourage the Irish named children to use their Irish form, but let the other kids be. It's their name!

I remember in the 1970s/80s when my kids were at school (not Gaelscoil) their names were translated for the rollbook.
I remember a friend's child called Judith who practically went on strike over being called Siobháin!

eadaoin

I myself can relate to this in some ways,Suaimhneas.When I was in primary school,every morning my school principal would do the roll call as Gaeilge.She gave me the name "Jason Ó Ré" simply because,as I understand now,she didn't know the Irish for my first name,or my surname,which is "Ray".Because of this I was stuck with a false "Gaeilge" version of my name through all my years at school,until I did my own internet research,and found that "Ó Riabhaigh" is the correct Irish for surnames Ray,Rea,Ravey and Reavey etc.I double checked this with Conradh na Gaeilge and Gael Linn and they confirmed it for me and were very helpful.Even my own mother already knew it when I mentioned it to her,she just thought that Ó Ré was a "modernized Irish" version.

This is just more proof that teachers are not always 100per cent correct.

quote:

This is just more proof that teachers are not always 100per cent correct.

Hear, hear. If there's anything I ever learned at school, it's this.

Yeah,Mbm.Tis just a pity I didn't realise that until a few years after my leaving cert!! The other thing is that the secondary school teachers didn't know any differently either-they didn't argue with "Ó Ré" and they said "there is no Irish for 'Jason' as such..." blah blah.Even when I think of it now it angers me that I went through school with a ridiculously made-up "Irish" version of my name and thinking it was correct.

I agree with Michal about leaving name choices up to the individual in question with the following caveats where the individual is happy to use an Irish form:

- if someone is going to use the known Irish form of their name, or even one based on supposition, I think they should at least respect the long-standing grammatical rules of the language. Two specific examples come to mind from my time tutoring and lecturing in UCD, St Pat's in Drumcondra and Trinity College:

1) With surnames containing Mac such Mac Gearailt, Mac Craith, Mac Mathúna etc., initial c or g are never lenited after the feminine forms Nic, Mhic:

Máire Nic Gearailt
Sinéad Nic Craith
Mairéad Mhic Giolla Chuda
Orla Mhic Conmara

Indeed there seems to a widespread misunderstanding amongst learners that the feminine is Ní for both Ó and Mac surnames. Not so! Ní is used solely with Ó surnames.

2) With surnames cointaining Ó followed by a vowel, a h is prefixed to the vowel in a mans name but NEVER EVER after Ní or Uí with the feminine form:

Siobhán Ní Ící
Seán Ó hÍcí
Síle Uí Éigeartaigh
Pádraig Ó hÉigeartaigh

As stated by others above, giving schoolkids Irish surnames is fraught with difficulties, let alone deciding what is the correct version to use. The person might be given an Irish version that has no connection whatsoever with the person's own ancestry.

Ok. Rant over!

Here's a quote from "Teach Yourself Irish" (page 131) by Myles Dillon & Donncha Ó Cróinín:

The feminine of Mac is Ní (indecl., asp.)*, and the genitive singular masculine is, of course, Mic which will always be aspirated and causes aspiration of a following consonant. The feminine of Ó is likewise Ní and the gsm. is Uí (asp.).

*Nic (asp.) in northern dialects

Just letting you know …

I'm afraid that that is actually incorrect. The feminine form used with the surnames of unmarried women in Ó surnames is Ní, in Mac names it is Nic, being a contraction of Ní + Mhic. Ó Dónaill, Ó Duinnín and the Christian Brothers are all very clear on this. I have never heard of or seen any woman in the Munster Gaeltachtaí using Ní in a Mac surname. Indeed, speaking of northern dialects, Ó Duinnín tells us that the form Ní Mhic is still used in Donegal. He makes no reference to Ní being used with Mac surnames.

I've just found my own copy of Teach Yourself Irish by Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Shiels in which they state very clearly on pages 15 and 16, that Nic is the feminine unmarried form of Mac in Mac surnames. I don't know about Joseph Shiels but Diarmuid Ó Sé is a very accomplished linguist.

For those seeking the Irish form of their surname, I would direct the members of the forum to three texts, which are regarded as the standards authorities on Irish surnames:

1) An Sloinnteoir agus an tAinmneoir Gaeilge - Muiris Ó Droighneáin
2) Sloinnte Gaedheal agus Gall - Woulfe
3) Surnames of Ireland - Edward MacLysaght

Might I also advise people to be very careful about accepting what they read of Irish surnames, Christian names and their origins on the Internet. There's some very dodgy info floating around the web. Try and get your hands on one of the texts mentioned above.

Is iad téarmaí seo a leanas a bhí le foghlaim orainn ar scoil:

Ó - Fear/Buachaill
Ní - Bean/Cailín (uaireanta,cuirtear 'h' inti,mar shampla Ó Cléirigh,Ní Chléirigh)
Uí - Bean Pósta
maidir le sloinnte le "Ó".

Mac - Fear/Buachaill
Nic - Bean/Cailín
Mhic - Bean Pósta
maidir le sloinnte le "Mac".

Úsáidtear "Uí" agus "Mhic" mar cnuasfhocail freisin,mar shampla "clann Uí Riabhaigh" agus "clann Mhic Giolla Rua".Ach má tá mé san éagóir,cuir an ceart orm.

Ceapaim go mbeadh "An Sloinnteoir agus an t-ainmneoir Gaeilge" an-spéisiúil.Déanfaidh mé ransú air chun eolas breise a fháil.

Gaelscoileanna and gnáthscoileanna should consult the parents. Most of them have had a "name in Irish" and their "real" name. Consider Parthalán Ó hEachthiarna better known as Bertie Ahern. (Each - thiarna - leader of horses?) Quite a few consider the Irish version of their name as important. So much so that some families maintain a name in Irish that no one else would associate with their English name. It would be foolish of a teacher in a Gaelscoil or Gallscoil to mess with such names without consulting the parents.

Most parents choosing a Gaelscoil for their child should expect total immersion in Irish.

Since some reserve a place in their local Gaelscoil before the child has even been born should they not consider the suitability of the name they intend to give the child in relation to its Irish version. Calling your child Peaches or Trixiebelle or Popsicle is ... well ... eh ...

I think there is only one solution: choose a name from the book IRISH NAMES by Donnchadh Ó Corráin and Fidelma Maguire. Some great names there: Fachtna (malicious, hostile), Faolán (wolf) and Cadhla (beautiful, comely). Having chosen your name get someone who knows Irish [well] to spell it for you.

Oh! And have a bit of consideration for the child who has to grow up explaining and defending the name to an uncaring world. All governed by and named after characters in soap operas on TV.

And whatever you do "ná bí i do chúl-le-cine".

Every word of that-I couldn't agree more.

The original poster above mentions Fisher and the attempts by a school teacher to foist "Ó Bradáin" onto the poor kid. If no ancestral connection can be proven to exist between the surname of the child's father and Ó Bradáin, then the child must remain Fisher - in any language. Unfortunately, though, as is all too often the case in Irish language circles, many individuals' romantic nationalist zeal tends to override any considerations of linguistic authenticity.

I've also noted of late that some parents are choosing the form "Aishling" for their children, which appears to be a bizarre mix of English and Irish spelling. There is already of course "Aisling" and its anglicisation "Ashling" but "Aishling" seems to be the latest anglophone invention.

>>>Ó Dónaill, Ó Duinnín and the Christian Brothers are all very clear on this.
----------------------------------------------------------

These are not sources for Cork Irish. Myles Dillon's Teach Yourself Irish is -- and Donncha Ó Cróinín who co-authored the book was from the Cork Gaeltacht. And however competent Ó Sé is, Teach Yourself Irish by Diarmuid Ó Sé is a textbook of Standard Irish, not Munster Irish, so as a source it does not show anything about traditional Munster Irish.

Having said that, you could scour Cork literature for a long time to find an example - the only one I can find is in the Seanachas of Pádraig Ua Cruadhlaoich, and he referred to someone Nic Cárthaig - actually that book was also edited by Donncha Ó Cróinín...

There must be a reason why Myles Dillon wrote what he did -maybe the difference between ní and nic was often not adhered to in Cork Irish. There are many surnames where Mac and Ó forms both exist, and not many Mac-type surnames in the Cork Gaeltacht (by the evidence of the index of personal names in the second book I quoted).

And yes, Aidan Doyle's Polish-language textbook of Kerry irish does give an example: bean Liam Mhic Cárthaigh (with Mhic Cárthaigh pronounced ə kɑ:rhə), but Myles Dillon wrote that mhic lenites: he must have had a reason for writing so - maybe Gaeltacht usage varies or varied.

The pronunciation of mac/mhic is another thing. Seán Ó Cuív's transcription of Séadna into Irish in Simplified Spelling shows Mac Cárthaig, nominative case, is pronounced Vác Cártha, but Mac Giolla Phádraig is pronounced mac... And people called McKeown are the 'c Eónaigh (na Keónaigh) in Séadna.

Ceist agam oraibh.

Dá mbeadh sloinne ag páiste - ón Eilvéis, mar shampla - cosúil le Kiechle-Koch agus é ag freastal ar Ghaelscoil, nó ar scoil sa Ghaeltacht féin fiú, an bhfuaimneofaí an t-ainm de réir chóras foghraíochta na Gaeilge, nó an Bhéarla?

(Thiocfadh córas foghraíochta na Gaeilge ní ba bheaichte leis an bhfoghraíocht cheart.)

Is Myles Dillon from the West Muskerry Gaeltacht? I believe there are two individuals named Donncha Ó Cróinín - one who edited Seanchas Amhlaoibh Í Loinsigh and another who is, I understand, currently administrator of the forum over at acmhainn.ie.

"Having said that, you could scour Cork literature for a long time to find an example - the only one I can find is in the Seanachas of Pádraig Ua Cruadhlaoich, and he referred to someone Nic Cárthaig - actually that book was also edited by Donncha Ó Cróinín..."

- Exactly Nic Cárthaigh, as one would expect. And as stated above, this is, I believe the individual who edited Seanchas Amhlaoibh Í Loinsigh and is now deceased.I don't believe that this is one and the same individual as the Donncha Ó Cróinín wrote Teach Yourself Irish, though perhaps a relative?

"There must be a reason why Myles Dillon wrote what he did -maybe the difference between ní and nic was often not adhered to in Cork Irish"

- In the case of a surname such Mac/Nic/Mhic Cárthaigh, it is entirely feasible that in rapid speech the c of Nic would be assimilated to the initial c of Cárthaigh giving Ni Cárthaigh - but still without initial lenition of the c and probably retaining the short vowel in Ni. Another factor is the frequent loss of initial m and its associated forms which occurs commonly in Corca Dhuibhne and Conamara and probably in other places also. Mac Gearailt for example is very commonly pronounced A' Gearailt in Corca Dhuibhne. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Dillon might have been thinking of such examples as Ni Cárthaigh quoted above.

"And yes, Aidan Doyle's Polish-language textbook of Kerry irish does give an example: bean Liam Mhic Cárthaigh (with Mhic Cárthaigh pronounced ə kɑ:rhə), but Myles Dillon wrote that mhic lenites: he must have had a reason for writing so - maybe Gaeltacht usage varies or varied."

- What textbook is this? It is not surprising giving the frequent elision of the initial consonant of Mac and its byforms that Mhic Cárthaigh would be pronounced ə kɑ:rhə. Such a weak unstressed vowel would naturally be reduced to a schwa. A question: is Dillon claiming that Mhic lenites a following c and g?

"The pronunciation of mac/mhic is another thing. Seán Ó Cuív's transcription of Séadna into Irish in Simplified Spelling shows Mac Cárthaig, nominative case, is pronounced Vác Cártha, but Mac Giolla Phádraig is pronounced mac... And people called McKeown are the 'c Eónaigh (na Keónaigh) in Séadna."

- Prounced Vác Cártha under what circumstances? Something must be preceding it for the initial consonant to be lenited, surely? As for "na Ceonaigh", this is not surprising. Over time, Mac Eoin would come to be understood as Mac Ceoin, giving Na Ceonaigh.

Maidir leis an gceist a chuir Ormondo thuas:

"Dá mbeadh sloinne ag páiste - ón Eilvéis, mar shampla - cosúil le Kiechle-Koch agus é ag freastal ar Ghaelscoil, nó ar scoil sa Ghaeltacht féin fiú, an bhfuaimneofaí an t-ainm de réir chóras foghraíochta na Gaeilge, nó an Bhéarla?

(Thiocfadh córas foghraíochta na Gaeilge ní ba bheaichte leis an bhfoghraíocht cheart.)"

An bhfuileann tú fiarthaí duinn conas a fuaimneofaí é nó conas gur CHÓIR é a dh'fhuaimniú? Fuaimneoidh múinteoirithe na nGaelscoileanna i gceantracha, nach ceantracha láidre Gaeltachta, an sloinne - gach aon tsloinne, is cuma cá teanga - do réir chóras foghraíochta an Bhéarla. Go deimhin féin, cloíonn formhór lucht foghlama na Gaelainne le foghraíocht an Bhéárla mar nach eol dona bhformhór mór fóineolaíocht dhúchaiseach na Gaelainne. Sa Gaeltachtaí láidre, ámh, beidh foghraíocht an mhúinteora do réir chumas Gaelainne an mhúinteora. Más cainteoir maith an duine, beidh foghair dhúchiseacha aige nó aici. Más Béarlóir dúchaiseach nó duine a tógadh le Gaelainn ach Gaelainn na scoile agena mhuintir, beidh foghair an Bhéarla aige nó aici. Ní thuigim conas go mbeadh foghraíocht na Gaeilge níosa ghiorra d'fhoghraíocht Ghearmáinis na hEilvéise. Ní gá go mbeadh. Dhá theanga ar leithligh iad.

Maidir le "Kiechle-Koch" tá dhá cheist: an chaoi lena litriú agus an chaoi lena rá. Maidir leis an litriú d'fhágfainn é mar atá mura n-iarrfadh na tuistí a mhalairt. Ag Dia atá a fhios cén chaoi a n-abrófaí é. Chaithfeadh an tuismitheoir an fhoghraíocht a thabhairt don mhúinteoir.

Tá aithne agam ar Iodáileach a bhfuil an t-ainm Pietro air. Cén t-ainm a thugadh an múinteoir bunscoile air sa rang Gaeilge? Páidín. Dá mba Peadairín a bhí aige bheadh ciall leis ach Páidín! Ba cheart omós a thaispeáint don dalta.

Bhuel, dá ndéarfaí "loch" le foghraíocht na Gaelainne, ach "K" a chur in áit "l", bheadh sé an-ghar don leagan Gearmánach. I bhfad níos giorra ná "Kotch" nó "Kok" i bhfoghraíocht an Bhéarla.

Agus maidir leis an "ch bog" i "Kiechle", tá "ch caol" san fhocal "chéibhe" an-chosúil leis.

Nuair a chloisim Gaeilgeoirí dúchasacha ag fuaimniú ainmneacha dá léithéid ar an raidio - ar chlár nuachta, mar shampla - feictear dom go bhfuil an leagan "oifigiúil mícheart" Béarla á úsáid acu d'ainneoin go mbeadh an leagan "mícheart" Gaelainne níos giorra don leagan ceart i gcásanna éagsúla.

Más cruinn mo bhreathnú, nach toradh áiféiseach é ar fhorlámhas an Bhéarla?

(Message edited by ormondo on September 05, 2010)

Más as an Éilvéis an gasúr, tá chuile sheans gur Kchiechli Kchoch atá air, le ch-anna leathana Gaeilge sa chuile áit ;)

Ní gá go mbeadh /x/ Ghearmáinis na hEilvéise comhionann le /x/ na Gaelainne. Féach /x/ na Breatnaise go mbíonn i bhfaid níosa mhó cimilte leis ná mar a bhíonn leis an /x/ againne, foghar atá níos séimhe. Go deimhin féin, deinim amach gur giorra /x/ na Breatnaise don nGearmáinis ná do /x/ na Gaelainne.

Tá /x/ na Rúisise mar gold standard of velar articulation agam. Gach's a ndéantar níos foide thiar sa mbéal agus a bhfuil níos mó cuimilt leis, a dtugaim faoi deara é, tugaim uvular air. Mar sin, is é mo thuairim go bhfuil /x/ Gaeilge Chonamara uvular, cé nach bhfuil aon fhoinse in aice láimhe agam anois leis an bpointe seo a léiriú. (Agus feicim go ndeirtear a mhalairt sin ar Wiki.)

Carmanach, Ailín, - Myles Dillon was not from Muskerry, and he is dead (died ca. 1974) the book Teach Yourself Irish based on Muskerry Irish was written in 1961 and has nothing to do with the later book of the same title on Standardized Irish. Myles Dillon was the brother of James Dillon, the former leader of Fine Gael. Donncha Ó Cróinín, the brother of Seán Ó Cróinín - is dead too - I am not talking about the administrator of achmhainn.ie, but the same man who edited Seanachas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse (note the spelling of the title of this book, as this book is written in a semi-phonetic spelling to show the pronunciation). He was the same man who worked with Myles Dillon on Teach Yourself Irish - and I know a cousin of his in the Muskerry Gaeltacht. I believe Donncha's dates were 1924 to 1995, or something like that.

"What textbook is this?" - er, as I said, a Polish-language textbook of Kerry Irish written by Aidan Doyle at UCC. The title is An Ghaeilge (not a good title for a book on Munster Irish, but...)

Yes, Dillon did claim that Mhic lenites all lenitable consonants - I think this is a flaw in his textbook, although real examples in Cork literature are hard to find. The example given in Teach Yourself Irish is "James McDermot", Séamas Mac Diarmada, with his wife called "Mrs James McDermot", Bean Shéamais Mhic Dhiarmada. He doesn't specifically address what would happen with a Surname with Mhic preceding a C or G, but he doesn't cite any exceptions for these letters either.

Given the fact that Myles Dillon was not a native speaker of Cork Irish, as far as I know, and we don't know the division of labour on the book between Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín, it seems best to go with whatever forms can be found in Cork literature. I have found Nic Cárthaigh, thus refuting Dillon's statement that nic does not exist in Cork Irish. But I have not found any examples in Peadar ua Laoghaire's Mo Sgéal Féin or Séadna (the only two books I have fully transcribed in Cork Irish) of a surname with Mhic in the middle.

I am a learner, and I have only been to Ireland twice, and I am more accustomed to reading than talking Irish, but my impression from two visits to Muskerry is that if anyone speaks Cork Irish there, it is literally a handful of people in their 70s and 80s - and that most people, if they speak Irish at all, speak Standard Irish with some rugadar-style verbal forms thrown in. They certainly don't speak the full-blown Cork Irish of the pre-war Gaeltacht. So I wouldn't know who to ask about this in the Gaeltacht.

Vác Cártha: in chapter 14 of Séadna, you find "Nach é Cormac Mac Cártha a lámhuigh Bob Hutchison, a Ghobnait?" I am quoting from the original edition, but you find the same thing on p108 of Liam Mac Mathúna's edition, apart from the fact that Mac Mathúna spells lámhuigh as lámhaigh. This sentence becomes in the leitriú shimplí edition prepared by Shán Ó Cuív "nách é Coramac Vác Cárha a lâig Bob Hutchison, a Ghobanuit?". Shán Ó Cuív was not a native speaker, but he was a son of native speaker living at a time when it was possible to get much more help from native speakers of Cork Irish. The value of his transcription is that it shows the pronunciation, or at least as Ó Cuív believed it to be - ie that nach has a long a in Cork Irish, nách; Cormac has an epenthetic vowel, Coramac; Mac in this sentence is pronounced with a v and a long a, Vác; Cárthaigh is pronounced with the igh left off, Cárha; lámhuigh is pronounced with a nasal vowel and a g, lâig [but current speakers in the Muskerry Gaeltacht don't use nasal vowels]; and Gobnait has an epenthetic vowel, Gobanuit.

In Sgéal Mo Bheatha, the 1940 autobiography of Dónall Bán Ó Céileachair (from the Muskerry Gaeltacht), he does refer to someone Eóghan Má' Cártha' - this was the original spelling, and also the spelling in the recent modernised spelling edition. I think it shows the a of Mac is lengthened before a C, and so Mac becomes Má', but there is no sign of the M becoming a V.

I tried to nail down an opinion on the pronunciation of surnames in "Mac" last time I was in Muskerry (in August), but got no satisfactory answer other than that some were lenited and some weren't.

David,
Yes I note the spelling used by Donncha Ó Cróinín in Seanachas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse. Indeed I'm sitting here at the moment with the book open in front of me taking notes of any interesting words, morphological forms, syntactical structures etc and entering them into my notes. It's an uphill task though, as there is so much to savour. Ó Cróinín also edited Seanachas Ó Chairbre 1 and Seanachas Phádraig Í Chrualaoi but I think I think all of my next life and the one after it to plough through those! Might I be so bold as to point out that native spoken Irish in Cork is not confined to West Muskerry. I'm also studying Aisti Ó Chléire by Donnchadh Ó Drisceoil, who was born in Clear Island. There is also the text from Carberry mentioned above by Seán "Hamit" Ó hAo who came from a place near to Union Hall on the south Cork coast. Brian Ó Cuív's Irish Dialects and Irish-speaking Districts gives some covers some features of East Cork Irish, namely Ballymacoda. Wagner as well has tons of information on Ballymacoda and Clonakilty and many other places where Irish is now as dead as a doorknob.

Dillon could be right about Nic and Mhic leniting any following lenitable consonant but I think more evidence would need to be provided.

I've looked at own notes and find one example of a Mac name from Seanachas Amhlaoibh Í Luínse (page 27):
saor a b'ea Diarmuid ’ac Séamuis ’ac Crothúir, file eile a bhí i mBaile Mhúirne, though this might not actually be technically a surname more a description of the individual's relation to father and grandfather.

I've been to Baile Bhuirne and Cúil Aodha twice and I can tell you that the language appears to be on the verge of extinction there. You will find good speakers, such as Eoiní Maidhc and Peadar Ó Riada but they seem to be few and far between. My advice would be to go there during Éigse Dhiarmuidín Uí Shúilleabháin in November but don't expect to hear much Irish.

Interesting example of lenition of m in Mac: nách é Coramac Vác Cárha a lâig Bob Hutchison, a Ghobanuit, and lengthening of the vowel.

The point about the long a in the copular nách is common to all Munster, I believe. It's the norm in Corca Dhuibhne. Coramac with an epithetic vowel is also normal. As for -igh losing its g, this is common in many surnames in the south. Ó Dála for example in Corca Dhuibhne. See The Irish of West Muskerry by Brian Ó Cuív for a more detailed description. Lámhaigh with a nasal vowel and loss of intervocalic /v/ is also the norm in Munster though the nasalisation has largely vanished with younger speakers. Ó Cuív also mentions this as a distinguishing feature in the minimal pair lá /lɑ:/ -lá, day and /lã:/ - lámha, hands. Nasalisation still survives among older speakers in Corca Dhuibhne. Compare /di:/ - duibhe with /dĩ/ - duimhich, sandy land beside the sea. Gobnait with the epenthetic vowel in the consonantal cluster is also to be expected.

If you already done so, I strongly recommend you read and study in depth Ó Cuív's text regarding the phonology of West Muskerry.

Ailín

Sorry, if you have not already done so . . .

Also check out Seán Ua Súilleabháin's chapter on Munster Irish in Stair na Gaeilge.

Yes, I am a great fan of Brian Ó Cuív's book. I note that the pronunciations he shows are often at variance with those shown in Shán Ó Cuív's leitriú shimplí, eg the latter had an epenthetic vowel in baintreach, and the former did not - well the former was focused exclusively on the pronunciation of Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh - but I think Shán Ó Cuív may have been surmising an epenthetic vowel in this word...

Eoiní Mhaidhc was the speaker who read 25 full very conjugations onto MP3 for me in Cúil Aodha recently. I know you don't need them yourself, but they are at http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/verb-conjugation , and if you know anyone who would benefit, please pass the link on. It was mainly just a resource for my website, but was quite an onerous undertaking.

There are a few more strong speakers there - especially if you include the more Standardized speakers, who are still native speakers. I stay in the almost five-star hotel-like B&B in Cúil Aodha, and they are very strong speakers of Irish there. Part of the problem with Cúil Aodha is that there is no "public space" other than the church. There is no shop or pub. So, while there are people who speak Irish in their homes, there is no venue where you would hear it, unless you get to know them and visit in their homes - but the lack of a public sphere has also allowed Cúil Aodha to remain a Gaeltacht B zone - if there had been a pub, more non-Irish speakers would have been attracted. Cúil Aodha itself is 40% Irish-speaking every day according to the census, although this is already a figure that shows the Irish is going... Outside Cúil Aodha, the rest of the Muskerry Gaeltacht is even weaker...

Carmanach,

I was told that Seanachas Ó Chairbre is in poor Irish - the Irish that was left then was highly ungrammatical and not likely to have been the original dialect.

Clare Irish - you could read Seanchas Chléire By: Ó Síocháin, Conchúr 1866 -1941

My extensive list of Cork Irish literature is at http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/archives/691 - scroll down to Cork. It is organised by the year of birth. If you have heard of any other writers of Cork Irish, I would like to know of them.

David,
Yes, the Irish of Seán Ó hAo could be said to be deficient in many respects and the editor of the book points this out, but I still believe that it is a valuable piece of evidence of the sort of Irish that was once spoken along the south Cork coast. I think the language had all but vanished from his own area by Seán Ó hAo's time and so it's not surprising that his Irish should be deficient to some extent. Wagner gives examples of speakers unable to complete his word survey due to the extremely weak state of the language in some areas where it had all but disappeared.

I think you mean "Clear Island". Seanchas Chléire comes from Clear Island in Roaringwater Bay. For the Irish of Co. Clare we have Leabhar Stiofáin Uí Ealaoire.

Just a little clarification for our friends learning the language on the following placenames, which are frequently confused:

Cléire or Oileán Chléire = Clear Island, west Cork
Cliara or Oileán Chliara = Clare Island, off the coast of Mayo
An Clár, Contae an Chláir = Clare, Co. Clare

Agus na sloinnte:

Cleere / Clare = de Cléir

Cleary / Clarke = Ó Cléirigh

Ag deireadh an lae,tá baint ag an t-ábhar seo le sloinnte.

Agus na sloinnte:

Cleere / Clare = de Cléir

Cleary / Clarke = Ó Cléirigh

Ag deireadh an lae,tá baint ag an t-ábhar seo le sloinnte.

Níl ach ainm amháin ag gach duine in Éirinn:

Jams O'Donnell !

Ach in ndáiríre:
Sloinne Sasanach atá agamsa (cheapaim), agus chuir Gaelscoil mo mhac 'Gaeilge' air. Ach ní hé sin an sloinne 'Gaeilge' a bhí agamsa air scoil (níorbh Gaelscoil é).

(Ní bhíonn morán cleachtadh agam sa Ghaeilge, tá súil agam go dtuigeann sibh é seo!)

Sórt Jams O'Donnell droim ar ais a bhíonn ar bun ag na Gaelscoileanna, feictear dom.

I wonder how 'Erskine Childers' got translated into 'Earchta Ó Slatiascaigh' ? Son of the fishing rod?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_name

That looks spurious to me, and it not used on either of the Irish Wikipedia pages for the people concerned.

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskine_Hamilton_Childers
http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Erskine_Childers

In fairness, though, I wouldn't be taking anything written on the Irish Wikipedia pages as being particularly accurate.

Neither do I in any language, but if 'Earchta Ó Slatiascaigh' had some basis within the curious world of Wikipedia, I'd expect to find it reflected in the Irish Version.

It is flagged with "Citation Required" where used.

I've never heard either Childers referred to as anything that odd. Although stranger things have happened in an excess of revival zeal.

(Message edited by aonghus on September 20, 2010)

http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=34&lang=ire

Others have had there names translated here where they usually used the English form.

If there were a recognised Irish form, I think you would find it here.

Earchta Ó Slatiascaigh sounds like a character from An Béal Bocht!

I agree, Carmanach. Wonder if he knows Jams O'Donnell.

Sílim gur colceathrar é le Masal Bugduv