A chara,

I have read about Irish speakers in the U.S. The census stated that around 20.000 citizens spoke Irish at home. But certainly, there are more who have knowledge in Irish or speak it outside home. The best example for this is Ireland itself where much more people have knowledge in Irish or speak it outside home.

How many citizens in the U.S., do you think, speak Irish occasionally or have knowledge in it? The U.S. census is a bit unaccurate in only stating those who speak a language at home. Are there probably some native speakers left?

I have heard that there are still quite many Irish speakers in Boston.

Go raibh maith agaibh as bhur bhfeagraí.

There is still emigration from the Gaeltacht to the US, so there are bound to be native speakers there. You can hear them on radio na Gaelatchta occasionally.

A few admittedly anecdotal observations follow.

I can't speak for other regions of the U.S., but the numbers of native speakers in Massachusetts ebbs & flows over the years depending on how things are in Ireland. When the economy was dreadful in the 1980s, there were many emigrants coming to Boston or Springfield. When things improved in the 1990s, many of these went home & new emigrants were scarce. There seems to be a slight increase in recent years, but nothing compared to the mid-1980s.

Of the emigrants in any given generation, only a small percentage could be called native speakers, though many have passable Irish if they choose to use it.

With regard to native speakers coming to Massachusetts, Kerry emigrants usually go to Springfield and Galway/Mayo emigrants usually stay in the Boston area. I occasionally meet Donegal speakers, but there doesn't seem to be any one place where they settle when they arrive.

There are countless Americans who study Irish, and could be classed anywhere between "cúpla focal" and fluent, though there are many more of the former. Classes where Americans can study/use Irish are more plentiful on the east & west coasts, though opportunities do exist inland -- nevertheless, America is an enormous place and many people live far from the large cities. The internet has made remote classes & opportunities to converse more feasible & affordable, but the percentage of people with some Irish is probably far lower overall than in Ireland.

I know/know of quite a few Donegal native-speakers in the USA - and all of them living in a place called Queens, NY. Wherever that is...

two years ago, my brother was walking through Cambridge, Mass. and heard two guys speaking Irish to each other on the street.

There's also a huge hub of learners in the NY metro area thanks to Daltaí and NYU...and NYC...well...I believe just about any language in the world with more than 500 speakers has representation in NYC, lol...

I have forgotten to say that I meen native Irish speakers born in the U.S.

Is there no number of U.S. citizens stated who have Irish language skills?

25,870 Irish speakers in the US

http://www.usefoundation.org/userdata/file/Research/Languages/irish_gaelic.pdf

Notes
• Of the 20 counties with the greatest percentage of
speakers of Irish Gaelic, five are located in New
York and four in Massachusetts, including three of
the top five.
• Irish Gaelic is the 27th most common language
spoken in Maine and the 29th most common
language spoken in Massachusetts.
• Irish Gaelic is the fifth most common language
spoken at home in Mineral County, Mont., Ritchie
County, W.Va., and Big Horn County, Wyo.
• In the United States, 1 of every 10,142 people age
five and older speaks Irish Gaelic at home. In
Massachusetts, this figure is 1 in 1,815 people,
while in New York, 1 in 3,713 residents is a Irish
Gaelic speaker.
• Within the counties, Dukes County, Mass. has the
greatest rate of Irish Gaelic speakers (1 in every
350 residents), followed by Mineral County,
Mont. (1 in every 366 residents) and Norfolk
County, Mass. (1 in every 608 residents

Thank you very much. Go raibh míle maith agat.

This number is probably again that stated for those who speak Irish at home, isn´t it? Certainly there are more citizens who do not speak it at home, but at other places or have skills in it.

Guevara, This is 2000 data. The data from the recent census will be interesting as well. Based on other surveys, it looks like the number is about the same. But my county says 245 people. I would like names and phone numbers, because I have had a hard time finding any of those 245. That could be a pretty good discussion group!

Alexderfranke, I don't think you're going to find the kind of correlation that you want. I can say that I think the "language use at home" question is a very good one because speakers of non-English languages are much more likely to speak it at home than in public. That is a masterstroke in my mind, and a primary fault of the Irish census. The Irish census would be more accurate if it asked what languages are spoken at home, and then in a separate place a question on the Irish language. It would be a good way to see a correlation between language use and people's perception of fluency. It may be a way to separate actual use from aspirations of use.

(Also looking at the 2006 census, I cannot believe the minutiae they have you fill out!)

On the other hand, especially in the case of minorised languages, not everybody can speak a language at home, but in other networks. The question of frequency in the Irish census is a good one.

Good point, I agree.

quote:

I have forgotten to say that I meen native Irish speakers born in the U.S.

Let me ask what you mean by "native Irish speakers" -- I think many of us consider a native speaker to be one who was raised in an Irish-speaking home by Irish-speaking parents. Is this what you mean, or something else? Because if we're defining native speakers that way, the number of "native Irish speakers" who are also "born in the U.S." is likely to be extremely small.

quote:

Is there no number of U.S. citizens stated who have Irish language skills?

Certainly, and some numbers have been quoted above. But since you ask this directly after the questions about U.S. born "native speakers", I wonder if you might be conflating U.S. born "fluent speakers" with U.S. born "native speakers". I'm sure there are vastly more of the former than the latter.

Yes, I did mean U.S. citizens who have grown up speaking Irish by native Irish speakers.
By those with skills in it, I mean speakers with reasonable ability. In my opinion, people who know only a few words in a language cannot be claimed to be speakers.
Ní dhéanann cúpla focal cainteoir de dhuine.

quote:

• Irish Gaelic is the fifth most common language
spoken at home in Mineral County, Mont., Ritchie
County, W.Va., and Big Horn County, Wyo.

I wonder why these people are in the middle of nowhere.

I never Speak Irish at home. But often with my friends Socially and through texts, and in many circumstances like in Sessions , or when i teach my Adult Irish Class , and when i work in the schools as an Irish Language assistant also i attend at least three comhrá during the weeks with friends. So no i dont live in a Gaeltacht or use Irish 24/7 but i can use Irish anytime i choose by phoning a friend or going out and meeting them socially. I also meet people from the Circle of Irish speakers i know at the gym and in almost any place in town, shopping , out for a meal etc. So when it comes down to it i can be as fluent as i need to be, as i believe a language is primarilly for Communication and enjoyment and being understood. For reading and writting i read Foinse and Gaelscéal and write as much as i can in Irish on Facebook etc. I also have TG4, RnaG. I have started back at an Ardrang and Gaeltacht courses to improve my weak Grammar skills.

I do think a census/survey of home speakers is valuable just because that is a way to track the "Gaeltacht" population. Sneachta, I don't know your age or anything, but if you started a family, would you then have Irish as your home language? It would be interesting to see the change in that figure over time as ONE method of measuring progress.

No Problem Seánw, im 48 on july past. I started bout 10 years ago, but iv taken a helluva lot of classes and went outta my way tyo build an Irish speaking/Learner group/circle of friends , which wasnt hard , more a labour of Love. i have a son and a daughter , who woulda been kinda too old to learn by the time i realised that that is what i would have wished for them. My daughter woulda been 15 and my son 7 , not really old .. but well into school years .. as i would have preferd the Bunscoil route. I taught my son a bunch of phrases a few years back and he still remembers some of them , but you know teenagers ...But like i said i Never started till i was bout 38 ... so i would never give up hope on anybody at any age Starting to Learn. Im not sure if that answers your Question , but if it dosent , i will say that i would have Absolutely no problem sending any son or daughter of mine through the system , if it was appropriate , and at the minute the bunscoileanna here are first class in my opinion. There has to be an explosion of Irish speakers at some stage , with the anmout that are going through the Bunscoileanna, maybe not native speakers , but capable Speakers. Im a
so-called fluent English speaker , but i knew almost no grammar till i needed it to learn Irish what a verb, Adjective, noun was , and my English still sucks lol , but sorry but i couldnt care less ( Probably about as mush as a Native Irish speaker knows or cares about Irish grammar)

Sneachta,
I just mentioned you because you use the language a lot away from home, and you're going to show up in the numbers. Considering all the debates about the Gaeltacht, I wondered if it would do some good to see if the numbers are still there, but just dissipated throughout the country. In addition, say someone like you speaks outside of home, but then has a family in which Irish is the medium. I think it would be interesting to see if over time there is a growth in home usage. I think we have a good sense that there is good will in the country. I think we know somewhat clearly the number who are fluent or use Irish in their lives. I don't think we have a clear concept Irish speaking homes (or do we?).

You are right i dont show up on any numbers and the same goes for almost every Irish speaker i know , so im not a believer in numbers ,it slike believing the news on certain incidents in a faraway place , unless you are there on the ground whee its happening , its you taking a chance that the reporter has done their job right ... i know of at least a dozen Gaeltacht speakers wo now live and work here , whom i speak Irish with and who are all amazed at the level of Irish here. Maybe cause of the fact that they dont expect to Find any No Gaeltacht Irish speakers!!! i dumnno. well every case is different , as i said i fell it was too late for me to bring Irish into my Household , but you never know ... it still may happen.. as i started when i was almost 40. But there are many younger people learning and not necessarily children , i mean people in their 20,s , 30,s who ahve yet to marry and settle down and raise kids who could possibly choose Irish for the home. Like i said im not too much into numbers , i just go out there and speak Irish as often as i can , polls and stuff afre only a guessing game.

A Shneachta, a chara, is maith liom go bhfuil tú anseo. When you describe your situation and your circle of friends and aquaintances you are describing mine also and that of many tens of thousands of other Irish people.

Rearing babies is an important task. It involves grommets and casts, minor operations and constant watchfulness for recovery from ailments as well as the ferocious defence that must protect the child from everything that might harm it. The baby is coccooned in a warm nest with its mother -- and father perhaps -- while outside the door the chaotic world rages and many languages are spoken including registers of the main language that neither mother nor father want the baby to hear.

Unless the mother and father and closest relatives are involuntary (helpless) native speakers they cannot be expected to substitute a language they don't know particularly well for their own dominant language. Many people would wish to rear babies through Irish and Irish only for the happy pre-school years but unless they are totally immersed and saturated in the language themselves so much so that everyone in their circle knows they dream in Irish it is unlikely to happen.

Parents can certainly deliberately speak a second language in the home -- at mealtimes for example. Any attempt secures a line in the child's agenda... Those who do it are the faithful few, an dream beag dílis, tradition-carriers. They may not know it but they -- and you and I -- are helping to preserve and transmit an ancient and beautiful language for Ireland and the future.

It happens in the Gaeltacht that mothers, wanting their children to have better English than they had, speak whatever English they know to their babies, thinking they will learn Irish from the neighbours and at school. Unfortunately they won't. Not having good English is considered a stigma in Ireland.

More than 100 years ago PEIG spoke a frightening sentence about the Ó Corráin household in Dingle / Daingean Uí Chúis where she worked as a home help: "Gaelainn ar fad a labhraíodh sa tigh ach amháin leis an gclainn." (It was all Irish that was spoken in the house except to the children.)

"Dá mbeinnse i mo Thaoiseach ar Éirinn" (now that's a nice phrase for your next school díospóireacht) I would pour airgead na Gaeilge into naíonraí and language support for the earliest years. How much would it cost to have a nice colour-poster displayed in every clinic and maternity hospital that would show a mother and new-born child cuddling and a speech bubble from the child saying "Labhair Gaeilge liom, a Mhamaí." Perhaps many Mammies might respond with "Labhród, a chuidín dílis is a mhúirnín ó / a stóirín mo chroí / etc" and give their baby a hug that would register on the Richter Scale.

What's my interest? I was born and reared in a bilingual home. My wife and I tried to speak Irish to our two children. They are all grown up now and their partners show no interest in Irish so we don't push it. On grand occasions -- weddings and funerals -- they speak fluent Irish to their relatives. Will they pass it on to their children? Who knows.

lovely Post Taidhgín,And thanks for the Fáilte.
but i know of at least 3 families her in a non Gaeltacht area who have raised their families through Irish , yeah English knocked on ther Doors Every single day of them and the growing enquiring kids lives , yet i can honestly say when i meet these boys and Girls i am so Proud, as they are the nicest bunch of Young adults you could ever hope to meet, and so talented music wise. Has been raised in the home and olny spoken to in Irish Harmed them in any way , Absolutely not .. the opposite in fact, they have many friends who may not even know they speak Irish , and other whom they Only converse with in Irish. They switch back and forth from Irish To English its scarey lol and also a thing of beauty to see and hear. Are they Native Speaker ,,,, im not looking for an arguement or a debate ... ?but i say Yes. Another weird thing is no matter where i am or what company i am in they generally only speak Irish to me ,, scarey at times lol .. but if i think on it its not outta disrespect to non Irish speakers in our Company , which i guess i am painfully aware are there , its just what they do .. and i guess as i write this i have only twigged on it is respest to me , that they see me as an Irish speaker ... and im sure this All happens without even a second thought to them im sure as they switch back and forth as effortlessly as me and you Breath ....

Maith thú, a Shneachta. Tugann sé sin misneach dúinn go léir.

As for the question "are we native speakers" it has been discussed at length on earlier posts to this forum. Although I'm an exceptionally brilliant Irish speaker -- eh -- for a Dubliner! I do not have the blas of a real native speaker but I think I am probably a very fluent learner. I keep coming back to Irish every day, speaking it, reading it, listening to it, and writing it. Unfortunately my Irish is of no interest to linguists who only want to study the original traditional Irish from the unbroken stream of speech transmitted naturally within the recognised Gaeltacht areas. And that is as it should be. We are all indebted to them and learning from them. We are delighted to have communities where we can hear the language spoken.

On the other hand, occasionally neither they nor some native speakers appreciate the effort we had to put in to learn the language nor how great our achievement has been in becoming fluent.

That's OK. I'm not offended...


My great-great-grandparents endured a few financial and social problems -- including discrimination, religious persecution and famine, which weakened their enthusiasm for Irish and while my great-grandparents and grandparents knew it they didn't speak it to their children, my parents, for shame. The great Liberator and Kerryman Daniel O'Connell M.P. told them not to. They were left in a situation that they could not speak their own native language knowing only a few words and phrases and their knowledge of the newly dominant language, English, was poor. Hiberno-English how are you!

Surprise! Surprise! Under the influence of Douglas Hyde, Pádraig Pearse, Éamon de Valera, Michael Collins, Risteard Mulcahy, Daniel Corkery, and Earnán de Blaghd my parents encouraged us to learn it and we did. We know it and, more importantly, we use it. Use it! Use it! Use it!

Are we native speakers? Is the Indian shopkeeper at the corner of the street in any Irish town a native speaker of English. What does it matter. We're Irish speakers.

By the way, the website www.teg.ie has tests to tell us how good we are! Wow!

funny we are getting to run with no interuptions lol , you misunderstood me a chara , i asked " Are they Nativer speakers , ? Children raised in an Irish household who only have heard Irish from the Mouthes of their Parents and brothers and sisters. Im well aware i Will Never be a Fluent speaker, that said i dont feel i need a Gaeltacht Blas, im well happy with my 100% Irish Blas , no matter what part of Ireland you are from , to me its Legitamite. I have heard the " You should go to Gaoth Dobhair , and learn from the native speakers , in as Beautiful as it is ... its not for me. Im Irish/Derry born and bred and through, why in Heavans name would i adopt another accent, yeah this isnt flavour of the monthe with Linguists, but thats not my problem.

Bulaí fir.

Togh fir!
Even in the Gaeltacht, the shape of Irish is changing with the younger generations. I myself have heard heavily English influenced accents from native speakers. The most evident sign is the almost complete loss of the rolled broad r. Pure accents I have heard only from a few guys from Gaoth Dobhair and some older adults. Another guy from Germany whom I met had adopted a pure Conamara accent when he has learnt his Irish around An Cheathrú Rua. The accent of Irish English, I have read, is a mixture between native Irish and English accents. But now, this one in the Gaeltacht is shifting to such a mixture, too. Therefore it is a matter of time when the pure accent will be gone.
One time I have spoken with a native speaker raised in Muskerry with who I am in contact, namely a woman, about the future of the Gaeltachts. She has acknowledged my guess about the shift towards Standard Irish. She meant that already today, Standard Irish with slight local influence is commonly spoken by younger speakers in Muskerry. This is no wonder due to nowadays frequent contacts to non-native and non-Gaeltacht speakers as well as to Gaeltacht people living outside the Gaeltacht in combination with the presence of English all around them.
Of course, the loss of local dialects is also a pity. But on the other hand we must be glad if the Gaeltachts will survive in one form or another as well if Irish will make modest progress in any way. The Donegal dialect, I suppose, will survive due to strong local pride of Irish speakers in the six counties.
In order to maintain Irishness in speech, attention should be paid to preserve an Irish accent, also in English spoken in Ireland. The influnce from the media and contacts to the U.S. and Britain has already weakened the Irish accents. For Irish accents in English will again result in more authentic spoken Irish.
For Irish people living in the U.S., it is or was certainly difficult or impossible to preserve an Irish accent. You will clearly notice Irish speakers from the U.S.

Go n-éirí bhur nGaeilge libh.
Is cinnte go dtiocfaidh athrú ar an nGaeilge labhraithe sa Ghaeltacht, freisin.

Alex

Sneachta, You very well can be fluent. Fluency has nothing to do with being a native speaker. From the descriptions of your life, you certainly sound close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluency#Language_fluency

quote:

Therefore it is a matter of time when the pure accent will be gone.

This is what we judge to be the pure accent. You can open linguistics books from 1910 or so and read descriptions of changes which existed between the young and old which are accept as the pure Irish now. Donegal Irish for example, from my point of view, is progressing along a quiet natural course of language change. The R is influenced by English, but that is to pretend that this is only recent. Irish has been continuously influenced throughout its history. It would strike me as odd if someone my age spoke to me like my great grandfather did. I would wonder what planet he came from.

Yeah we Cannot turn back the clock , its like trying to avoid new Tecnology , Mobile phone , Computer , Electricity ... All things move on... Languages too. Its only for communication , no matter how precious we get about it ... it for speaking and being understood. I love and appreciate the Language , yet its to be enjoyed. No matter how we try the Language will change with its surroundings and outside influences .. if i thought it was possible to change this ... to be honest i dunno if i would .. no more than i would like to use a Record player in place of a CD or my ipod.