i was hoping to maybe get some help translating," When all we are has turned to dust, when all we are has ceased to exist, just remember, we wanted it this way." into Gaelic.

thank you

Irish Gaelic by the way. thank you.

Nuair nach bhfuil fágtha dínn ach deannach
Nuair atá gach dá bhfuil ionann imithe
Cuimhnigh gur mar seo a bhí sé uainn

(I've taken some liberties with the wording. It is also slightly illogical - how can something which has ceased to exist remember? Or are "we" talking to "them"? That would make a difference)

Good Evening. We are the Charter members of IMMAGINE&POESIA, an artistic literary movement founded in Italy in 2007. We need to find someone who can translate The Manifesto into Irish.
Can you help us ? Here it is:
http://imagespoetry.wordpress.com/the-manifesto-of-immaginepoesia-2/
Thanks a lot
Lidia and the Charter Members of I&P

Forógra Íomhánna agus Éigse

1. CULTURE –through POETRY and ART- must be food for the spirit of the new generations
Caithfidh an chultúr - tríd éigse agus ealaíon - a bheith mar chothú do spiorad na glúinte atá le teacht
2. Poetry and figurative art lead to moments of CROSS FERTILIZATION
Eascraíonn meandair malartú cultúir* as éigse agus na dearcealíona
* I have follwed the German/French/Spanish versions here

3. Each form of expression can inspire others: our aim is their INTEGRATION
Is féidir le gach modh léirithe tinfeadh a thabhairt do dhaoine eile; an aidhm atá againn ná a gcomhtháthú

4. From the integration of POETRY and FIGURATIVE ART, reciprocally encouraged, a NEW RICH AND COMPLETE FORM OF ART can originate

Is féidir le chomhtháthú éigse agus na dearcealíona, agus iad ag spreagadh a chéile, foirm nua, saibhir agus iomlán ealaíona a ghineadh

5. The movement is open to artists and writers coming from different geographical areas and cultural backgrounds

Tá an ghluaiseacht oscailte do ealaíontóirí agus scríbhneoirí ó chríocha agus cúlraí cultúrtha éagsúla.


6. The INTER-ACTION of these artists and writers can improve the understanding and the respect of the others

Is féidir le idirphlé na n-ealaíontóirí agus scríbhneoirí seo cuir le tuiscint agus meas ar an eile.
7. We are in favour of a collaboration which can take place via TRADITIONAL MEDIA or via the INTERNET

Táimid ar son comhoibrithe tríd na meáin traidisiúnta nó tríd an idirlíon

8. NEW TECHNOLOGIES will be preferred in the exchange of creative ideas
Tabharfar tús áite do theicneolaíochtaí nua le linne malartú smaointe cruthaitheacha

9. We want to fight apathy, banality, superficiality and to support activity, imagination, originality and research

Is mian linn patuaire, éadoimhne agus seanchaiteacht a throid, agus tacú le gníomhaíocht, samhlaíocht, úrnuacht.


10. The movement IMAGES & POETRY is open to further developments and links with other disciplines and art forms.

Tá an Ghluaiseacht Íomhánna agus Éigse oscailte do tuilleadh forbairtí agus naisc le disciplíní agus foirmeacha ealaíona eile.

---

Wait for proofreading!
Note to others: I looked at the French, German and Spanish translations and adapted the wording to those rather than follow the English closely where that resulted in more natural Irish.

A couple of ideas culled from the Italian:

Heading. Íomhánna > Íomhá
1. chothú do spiorad na glúinte > chothú spioradálta do na glúinte
2. malartú cultúir > malartú cruthaitheachta
6. le tuiscint agus meas ar an eile > le feasacht, tuiscint, agus meas ar an eile
10. Íomhánna agus Éigse > Íomhá agus Éigse

íomhánna [ainmneach iolra]

Níl mé cinnte gur cnuasfhocal, mar atá in Éigse, atá in Íomhá.

Ní aontaím le do mholadh do 1) - an spiorad atá le cothú, feictear dom!

Is maith liom 2 & 6.

Tá cuma an-aisteach ar "ar an eile". Is beag úsáid a bhaintear as "eile" mar ainmfhocal, de réir an Dónallaigh. Níor thug sé ach aon tsompla amháin, sé sin: "Níl teach ná eile aige". Agus ní cás follasach é, ar aon dóigh.

Molaim "... ar ealaíontóirí agus scríbhneoirí eile" ina áit.

Níl mé cinnte: Tá's agam go bhfuil cuma aisteach air: ach is "the other" seachas ealaíontóirí eile atá ann.

B'fhéidir go mbeadh "an coimhthíoch" feiliúnach?

Tuigim. Níor léigh mé ach an abairt seo, ach d'iarr ciall a bhaint aisti gan chomhthéacs. An mba cheart dhúinn "ar gach ní" nó "ar dhaoine eile" a rá? Tá an abairt féin rud beag ciotach, agus níos measa fós, is féidir níos mó ná ciall amháin a bhaint as an leagan Béarla, dar liom: "Meas ar dhaoine eile" agus "meas atá ag daoine eile (ar rud eicínt)".

Seo atá sa Rúisis
. ВЗАИМОДЕЙСТВИЕ этих художников и литераторов способствовать всеобщему пониманию и уважению.

http://imagespoetry.wordpress.com/the-manifesto-russian-translation-by-olga-nale tova-russian-federation/

Sa bhFraincis:
L’INTERACTION de ces écrivains et artistes peut porter à une meilleure connaissance, compréhension, donc au respect de l’AUTRE

Sa Ghearmáinis
Die Zusammenarbeit dieser Künstler und Schriftsteller kann das Verständnis und den Respekt vor dem Anderen fördern.

An rud choimhthíoch atá i gceist, sílim, idir duine, smaoineamh nó ealaíon.

Is maith a fheileanns "coimhthíoch" dhó má leanann muid na leaganacha Gearmáinise nó Fraincise, tá an ceart agat. Ach deireann an leagan Rúisise go gcuirfeadh an t-idirphlé úd le tuiscint agus meas de chách. Is cosúil nach léir don chumann féin cé leis a bhfuil siad ag goil ag cur.

(Message edited by peter on August 31, 2010)

Aonghus, respect for others is just: meas ar dhaoine eile

Yes, but it was not clear from the other language versions whether it meant people or things, i.e. "the Other" in an abstract sense.

In the German for example it is clearly the abstract: "vor dem Anderen"

the other - an duine eile a mholfainn

Cad atá san Iodáilis?

Ní daoine atá i gceist le "dem Anderem" ná "l'Autre" dar liom.

Can we just use ar a chéile?

Tá dell'altro san Iodáil.



(Message edited by seánw on September 03, 2010)

(Message edited by seánw on September 03, 2010)

And does that refer to people or abstract otherness?

Just to say that I followed the English text, presuming, rightly or wrongly, that that was the original source text from which the other translations emanate. I think using translations into other languages can be useful and constructive but ultimately the translator needs to be faithful to the constraints of the target language, in our case, Irish and in Irish "eile" cannot be used as a substantive. The English text states: "The INTER-ACTION of these artists and writers can improve the understanding and the respect of the others". It is difficult to be entirely sure of what "others" means here, but most probably refere to the understanding of other people in general. I therefore used "an duine eile" which covers two possible bases, that it is the artists and writers respecting one other and/or other people in general.

The Italian is ambiguous. By the way, call me an Irish heretic, but I think that Irish MUST have a way to maintain that ambiguity. If it doesn't right now, then it will develop. I think an eile is just fine in an ambiguous situation because it is honest to the Irish, honest to the sense, and simple. I bet you 10 million duckets that there is a historical case for an eile. For instance, you can use the article with an adjective, mar shampla, an mhaith, an t-olc, an glas, an dearg, etc.

~daoine nach iad. (??)

An chiall atá leis sin ná "others (not yet enumerated)"

In DIL, under aile, substantive with article:

II As subst.

(a) another, the other, others etc. : cuit inna aine ┐ inna a.¤ of the one and of the other , Thes. ii 15.42 (Bcr.). amal na heliu `like the others ', Sg. 9 b 2 . arus leth do fallaib an aill do doebdadaib `for half is due for the neglects, the other for the claimants ,' Laws iv 126.21 Comm. mad a.¤ da lina beta olca folaid `one of two parties ', ii 366.11 . ma a.¤ dá lína bes anfoltach, O'Don. 565 ( H. 3.17 , 441 ). co ndearnadhsom in a.¤ chédna likewise , TFrag. 22.22 . mani tucad . . . ní din chéttad- all ni bered a n-aill, Sc.M² § 1 . ní fargaib bennachtain ┐ ní thuc anaill (alali, v.l. ), RC viii 52.25 . aroile . . . anaill the one . . . the other (ref. to leomuin), Grail 3399 .

(b) period of two days: a.¤ do mnaib . . . treisi do rig, Laws i 78.15 . nat ṡasai aena tar a.¤ `that one day should not be extend- ed beyond two days ', 120.18 . athgabail a.¤ itir uin ┐ treise rosmidir Sencha, 126.11 . cach athgabail a.¤, 144.24 .i. for ata anad naili ┐ apad aili, 146.21 Comm. is for dail na haili, 146.12 Comm. athgabail a.¤ do ingin im comorbus a mathar, 146.y .i. ar ata anadh naili, 148.3. Comm. a.¤ déc space of twelve days (cf. a.¤ déc one twelfth, (g) infra ): a.¤ do mnaib, a.¤ dec doib im roe, Laws i 78.15 .

(c) Frequ. a n-aill something else, anything else: nimbe anaild arbera bith `he has nothing else that he may eat ', Mon. Tall. 146.16 (§ 50) . ind lethbairgin ┐ ind cethramtu nó anaild `the half loaf and the quarter or other quantity , 151.z (§ 63) , ní fogbat merdrecha Ulad a n-aill acht foraim én dóib, LU 3254 ( SC § 5 ). it é do theoir ríagla / nítroib anaill bas diliu `have thou naught else dearer ', Ériu i 194 § 7 . in fil anaill? ol Grigoir `is there anything else ?' ZCP iii 30.21 .

(d) Hence with ocus, etc. furthermore: ┐ anaill forácbus[s]a . . ., LL 279 a 7 . ┐ anaill béus, iarfaig-siu and furthermore, ask . . ., TBC 1920 . ┐ dano a n-aill and úair ni chesend nech, LU 2654 . ┐ anaill niro tagaill . . ., Grail 2786 . Cf. similar use of araill: et araill aile dana béus, TBC 106 . ┐ araill and, dano, . . . ní fil rígain . . ., LU 4015 ( SC § 46 ). araill ele bheós ro leth ainm . . ., FM v 1858.z . ┐ araill ele nir bó siodhach . . ., vi 2052.10 .

(e) Uninflected aill . . . aill one . . . another, some . . . others (not found in O. Ir. Glosses): imrordus in rígraid / . . . / aill úas laithib lígdaib / aill fo díanaib déraib some . . . others , Fél. Prol. 23 . aill fir mair . . . / aill ingene húage `one of a mighty man . . . another of a virginal maiden ', June 5 . áill fri cumaid . . . aill ele fri teichead (of persons), Alex. 309 . .lll. carpdech . . . aill bruitt budi aill bruit deirg `some in yellow mantles others in red mantles ', RC xiv 412.8 . Hence adverbially partly . . . partly: aill is tóla catha crūach / aill is cōra cacha crích, ZCP xi 110 § 30 . go ruc in ingen leis aill ar áis aill ar égin, Ériu xi 46.13 . Cf. aill .i. aonfecht .. . ut est aill torla tres tochuired, O'Dav. 34 , Ériu xiii 15.11 .

(f) With nach any other: arna arroímatsom nach na.¤ `lest they should receive any one else ', Wb. 14 d 37 . cen acaldaim nach aili, Sg. 153 b 7 . cen acomol naich aili do `without joining any other to it ', 197 b 17 . nib écen na aill, Wb. 22 d 12 . ni gessid na aill act búaid precepte, Wb. 26 a 34 . ní epur na haill `I say nothing more ', Sg. p. 217 marg. sup. (Thes. ii xxii). in fail na aill adcota[r] dam, Trip.² 1323 . cona bía cuit do nach ailiu i nHére, 2766 . do-bérad naill ( = na aill) would give something else , BDD² 276 . With partitive DI something else of: asbéram na aill diar ṅgnímaib, Wb. 17 c 23 . in fuil anaill d'ingantaib air? Grail 2983 . Cf. aill do buadaib Duind C. andso something of the triumphs , TBC 1529 .

(g) In numerals (fractions). a.¤ déac one twelfth: oile dég f., IGT Decl. § 3 . oil a dég (oil dhég v.l. ) lochdach, IGT Decl. § 14 . aili deac brotto `the twelfth part of a second ', Thes. ii 13.29 (BCr.). erpais Patraic aili deac Erend dó the twelfth part of Ireland , Trip.² 911 . `a.¤ dhéc the twelfth part, the Brehon's fee. Anglicé allayéag,' O'Don. Suppl. ni uil aile déc dosomh ┐ atá éiric a gubreite fairsium, O'D. 536 ( H. 3.17 , 432 ). da tecarthar ni da folaid cruid on breithemain, no ailedec, Laws i 234.17 Comm. diablad na aile dec, 234.18 Comm. no co thormaigi fa geall co roib aile dec, v 252.20 Comm. log a breithemnuis, aile dec, 212.22 Comm. Perh. also in: ni bhía an oile dēgsi am díaigh / nach foighe Ó Bríain d'éicsi úaim, IGT Decl. ex. 216 . barr na ngēg uile re n-idnaibh / uile dég gun fidhbaidh ortt (lochtach), ex. 225 . Cf. Kl. enair for dardain ail uathaid fuirre `the second day of the moon thereon ', RC xviii 176.27 (Tig.). 284.2 . For ail dec 35.9 Stokes suggests reading ail uathaid.

I think coimhthíoch would carry that ambiguity, as I concluded in my discussion with Peter.

I agree with Ailín that eile as a noun would be odd today.

http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=coimhth%C3%ADoch

Thank you for the examples from DIL which do indeed show the use of aile with the def. article. However, is such use sanctioned in Late Modern Irish? I mean, would good native speakers from the core Gaeltacht areas say "an eile"? They may well do but some evidence would need to be provided. Ó Dónaill gives just one example "Níl teach ná eile aige".

As an aside, I know that "eile" is frequently substituted for "uile" in Corca Dhuibhne and pronounced likewise. See Ó Sé, Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne: 488.

I also note that Ó Cadhlaigh (411) mentions "eile" alongside "uile" though it is not entirely clear if he is claiming this to be a byform of "uile".

Deirtear "uile" mar "eile" i gcanúint thraidiúnta Chonamara freisin agus ní úsáidtear é ach ar lorg sin nó is. Seo cuid de na somplaí atá le fáil sa Deilbhíocht le Tomás de Bhaldraithe: Sin uile a bhéadfainn a rá, ag iarraidh gach's uile a bhfuil ann, ina dhiaidh sin is uile.

quote:

I agree with Ailín that eile as a noun would be odd today.

Well, so does "the other" and "the others" in English. I don't think many say this kind of stuff much outside certain stock phrases, poetry, and, well, in manifestos.

Don't forget "the Other" as a concept in psychology.

My I remind you that the English says "the others" and not "the other".

Sorry, might I remind you.

So it does. A point I missed by looking at the other versions, which are singular.

I was assuming the original was in Italian; but that may well have been a false assumption, given the range of signatories.

Anyway, it was a discussion worth having - and it reminded me of that useful word coimhthíoch!

Dála an scéil, is féidir píosa a leasú laistigh de leathuair ach brú ar an bpeann luaidhe agus páipéir sa chúinne ar dheis thuas.

I would like to add on this point that the use of "the other" in English seems quite a recent thing - I think it has been spoken a lot of in connection with cultural diversity and acceptance of "the other". I am not at all sure that this usage is of long-standing - but it would be interesting if anyone has access to the full Oxford English Dictionary of 20 volumes - I suppose that dictionary is so all-encompassing that some examples could be dredged up - can you post here if you find some as it will be interesting.

What I am implying is that something of very recent English usage cannot be translated verbatim into Irish in the hope of its being idiomatic Irish. Níl tigh ná eile aige is not an example of "the other"; eile here means "anything else", it doesn't mean "the other" as in "fear of the other", "respect for the other".

It would be a big job to wade through all the entries in the DIL - but I don't believe the concept of "the other" existed then... I think Peadar Ua Laoghaire spoke of the type of Irish which is just a copy of the English stylistically - I read some pages of the introduction to Alan Titley's An tÚrscéal Gaeilge recently - it appeared to me to be an attempt to put the awful "academic" style of English theses into Irish - a bad style of English informing a bad Irish style - and I am not talking about vocabulary, morphology or syntax, but the basic style. And "the other" belongs to this awful cod-academic style of English universities - it would be a mistake to copy that into English.

Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote the following in the Cork Weekly Examiner in 1905:

"How Irish Should Develop

"A few years ago our writers of Irish were making sgiot sgot of Irish syntax. Most of them have now fairly mastered the syntax, but they are still, with very few exceptions, making sgiot sgot of the usages. I fear that there are some of them who imagine that, in order to develop a literary style, it is necessary to drop the living native usages. That is a mistake. It is a fatal mistake. To write Irish, using English literary usages, is to produce written matter in which there is neither life nor strength nor sweetness. It is Irish in form. The syntax is correct. No person can find fault with the grammar. But, when a person has to read one or two sentences he turns away to something else. The stuff is mawkish, tasteless, unreadable.
"'What am I to do, then? Surely I cannot be expected to confine myself to the narrow fields both of thought and expression in which living Irish speech has had its being those two or three centuries back.'
"No, you cannot be expected to do that. You must be permitted to expand. But, if your expansion is to be a true growth, you must expand from within. If you want to be a true oak, every particle of you must have grown from the acorn. The living Irish speech which, thank God, we still possess, is a real, good, sound, true acorn. It has within itself, in full perfection, the elements and the forces which are capable of producing a mighty oak. An attempt to infuse any foreign elements into it will only have the effect of destroying it.
"Study the living speech of the people. Then expand it from within. Just as you would have to expand it if there were no other language in existence."
------------------

"The other" is not really good English, and it would be a mistake to be bringing that sort of stuff into Irish by means of a verbatim rendering.

quote:

We thank the TRANSLATORS of the MANIFESTO:

IL MANIFESTO DI IMMAGINE&POESIA, by the Charter Members (November 9, 2007 – Alfa Teatro, Torino, Italy)

THE MANIFESTO, English translation by Aeronwy Thomas, UK
...

Is cosúil mar sin gurb é an leagan Iodáilise an bunleagan.

Maidir le "rispetto dell'altro" is é "meas ar a chéile" a chuirfinn air .i. scríbhneoir agus ealaíontóir ag dul i gcomhar agus meas acu ar a chéile dá réir. Níl aon "eile" i gceist seachas iad beirt.

An-dheas! Ba cheart dom cuimhneamh air sin a chéaduair.

Seo an téacs Iodáilise:

L’INTERAZIONE di questi scrittori ed artisti porterà ad una migliore
conoscenza, comprensione, dunque rispetto dell’ALTRO.

"Maidir le "rispetto dell'altro" is é "meas ar a chéile" a chuirfinn air .i. scríbhneoir agus ealaíontóir ag dul i gcomhar agus meas acu ar a chéile dá réir. Níl aon "eile" i gceist seachas iad beirt."

- Is dócha ach ní gá ar a shon san gurb ea. Ní follas ar fad cad é an "altro" so, meas a bheith ages na healaíontóirí ar a chéile nó ar dhaoine eile i gcoitinne? Measaim go n-oireann "an duine eile" don dá cheann, rud a luas i dtosach.

Two things mentioned by Aonghus above:

"Nuair nach bhfuil fágtha dínn ach deannach
Nuair atá gach dá bhfuil ionann imithe
Cuimhnigh gur mar seo a bhí sé uainn"

- A nice translation but note that the verb must be in the future tense: nuair nach mbeidh, nuair a bheidh. A common mistake is for learners to use the present to refer to the future, the only cases where this is allowed is after má: má thagann tú isteach amáireach, tabharfaidh mé céad euro duit, and in the sense of something having been preplanned or already arranged: táim ag dul don Ghaillimh Dé hAoine. Both cases are covered in GGBC.

Aonghus also mentions "coimhthíoch", but see same in Ó Dónaill and Ó Duinnín. In Munster it is pronounced "caoitheach" /ki:həx/.

quote:

"The other" is not really good English, and it would be a mistake to be bringing that sort of stuff into Irish by means of a verbatim rendering.

The use in English of "the other" of "the others" goes back to Old English times. Many are obsolete now, but some obviously are still used. It was also common in Irish in the past. But if Aonghus says it sounds odd, then that can kill benefits to such a pithy phrase. Keep in mind my comments were based not necessarily on English, but on Italian, French, German, and English, cousin languages, which all had a simple way to express the phrase dell'altro.

Here is the entry in the OED under "other, B, I, 4b":

b. In form others. (The regular modern form.)

1542 N. UDALL tr. Erasmus Apophthegmes f. 67v, When the others..addressed theim selfes to returne

1611 Bible (A.V.) Ezek. ix. 5 To the others he said in mine hearing.

1611 Bible (A.V.) Dan. vii. 19 The fourth beast..was diuerse from al the others. [Elsewhere the other.]

1719 D. DEFOE Life Robinson Crusoe 319 The Cave where the others lay.

1749 H. FIELDING Tom Jones II. VI. x. 296, I shall..promote the Happiness of every Party; not only that of the Parent, who will thus be preserved from the highest Degree of Misery, but of both the others, who must be undone by this Match.

1788 A. HAMILTON in Federalist Papers lxxxiii. 335 In the courts of common law only, the trial by jury prevails, and this with some exceptions. In all the others a single judge presides.

1819 SCOTT Ivanhoe I. viii. 160 This politic selection did not alter the luck of the field, the challengers were still successful: one of their antagonists was overthrown, and both the others failed in the attaint.

1860 C. J. ELLICOTT Life Our Lord (1912) viii. 374 The two others direct our thoughts more to Judea.

1891 W. MORRIS News from Nowhere xxxi. 226 Take me on to the house at once; we need not wait for the others.

1926 D. H. LAWRENCE Plumed Serpent iii. 52 She did not hide the fact from herself, but she kept it dark from the others.

1958 J. RHYS Let. 9 Apr. (1984) 157 The Creole is of course the important one, the others explain her.

1991 Which? Feb. 67/2 Eight of the 15 saws hired came with transformers..but none of the others was supplied with an RCD.

With respect Seánw, you haven't provided any examples containing "the other" referring to an abstract "other". The question posed relates to "the other" not "the others". There is a key difference.

Anyway, whether "the other" in respect of an abstract "other" is a new expression in English or an old one is beside the point. To claim that "the other" in this usage is bad English is absurd. If native English speakers use this expression and accept it in their own English then it is correct English.

Ailín

I've been most directly interested in Aonghus' translation. I am not interested in the psychological term (which came in about 1860) because I don't think the manifesto has that in mind, although the usage is obviously related. I quoted "the others" because that is the modern English form, which was used by the English translator. The other form, in singular, I quote below, which is labeled as obsolete in the OED.

Under "other, B, I, 4a":

4. Usu. with the (or formerly occas. a demonstrative determiner). The remaining ones, the rest.

a. In form other (Old English plural othre). Obs.

OE Blickling Homilies 223 Wæs heora sum reedhra..edhonne tha othre.

OE West Saxon Gospels: Matt. (Corpus Cambr.) xxvii. 49 Tha oedhre cwædon.

OE Anglo-Saxon Chron. (Laud) (Peterborough interpolation) anno 1107, Onmang tha odedhre the abbodrices underfengon, Ernulf..feng to tham abbodrice on Burh.

c1175 (OE) ÆLFRIC Homily (Bodl. 343) in S. Irvine Old Eng. Homilies (1993) 62 Tha sædon sona sume tha synderhalyghan..Heom andswyrdan tha oedhre.

c1200 Serm. in Eng. & Germanic Stud. (1961) 7 61 O mang heom ves on engel thet vas brithere and feire thene ani of then othre.

1225 (?c1175) Poema Morale (Lamb.) 166 in R. Morris Old Eng. Homilies (1868) 1st Ser. 169 Ach thothre habbeth scome and grome.

1225 (?c1200) St. Katherine 1365 Tha ygheide thus the an, & elnede the oedhre.

1300 Iacob & Iosep 105 Ruben, that o brother, thenne he is igo..This othre sitteth bisides.

1340 Ayenbite (1866) 237 Hi clenzeth and halygheth the othre.

1375 William of Palerne 1200 The other were lordes of that lond, lelly of the best.

1400 (1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) 14306 He wepe sarer than thas other.

1477 CAXTON tr. R. Le Fèvre Hist. Jason (1913) 10 The other deffended them with alle their puissaunce.

1526 Bible (Tyndale) Rev. xx. 5 The wother off the deed men lyved not agayne.

1540 (?1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 11483 Priam..comaundit All the buernes of the burghe, bacheler & other.

1600 SHAKESPEARE Midsummer Night's Dream IV. i. 65 Awaking when the other do.

1658 Whole Duty of Man I. §9 The best groundwork whereon to build both the other.

1662 E. STILLINGFLEET Origines Sacræ III. ii. §17 That Space wherein the other were, is made empty.

1768 G. WHITE Let. 17 Aug. in Nat. Hist. Selborne (1789) 55 That it is a size larger than the two other.

* * *

I did find a quote in Tobar na Gaedhilge, from Seosamh Mac Grianna's Teacht fríd an tSeagal.

... orm ina dhiaidh-san comh maith leis an eile acu, agus nuair a bhain mé an stáis ...

quote:

did find a quote in Tobar na Gaedhilge, from Seosamh Mac Grianna's Teacht fríd an tSeagal.

... orm ina dhiaidh-san comh maith leis an eile acu, agus nuair a bhain mé an stáis ...

I'd have "an chuid eile" there.

I think we're flogging a dead horse here though.

\quote {...flogging a dead horse}. Cén Ghaeilge a bheadh air sin, agus ar "out of curiosity". Níl FGB agam.

(Message edited by Hugo on September 07, 2010)

flogging a dead horse - ag marú madra mhairbh - de Bhaldraithe

out of (sheer) curiosity - le teann fiosrachta or de ghrá na fiosrachta

You would also say something like "An bhfeadraís seo dhom?"; "Can you tell me this?"

As for the Mac Grianna quote, this appears to be equivalent to "an chuid eile" as Aonghus suggested and is therefore not the same as an abstract "the other".

Go raibh maith agat, a Charmanaigh.

I need some help with translating this below, I'm awfully rusty on my Gaeilge since i just got back into it recently.


sílim go mbeidh sí ag teacht ar an smaoineamh

Taking a shot in the dark and guessing to see if i am close 'I think until then(?) she will come up with an idea'

Close, but no cigar.

I think that she will be coming round to the idea that ....

(Something missing in the original)

Go raibh maith agat Aonghus!

quote:

I think we're flogging a dead horse here though.

I guess it was my learner's desire to want to get the whole picture straight. I'll let the horse alone now.

flogging a dead horse - Mac Cionnaith gives something similar to de Bhaldraithe: ag caitheamh cloch ar madadh [sic], &c. marbh. The lack of lenition on the initial m might be a typo or indicative of some older rule whereby a noun's initial consonant remains unlenited following a preposition if the noun is qualified? Madadh is the Ulster form, so possibly an Ulster rule? Or am I reading too much into this? Lughaidh?

Tá ceann deas eile ag Bannister faoi flog: Tá sú na beatha fáiscthe as an scéal [eile] sin againn.

Well, I don't know if flog=whip, but this quote from Séadna is quite interesting, although not dead horse-related:

do ghaibh sé de’n fhuip sin uirthi chómh h-áluinn agus do ghaibh Conchúbhar Máighistir riamh ar aon sgoláire d’á raibh ar an sgoil aige...nuair a bhí gabhtha go maith aige uirthi do sgaoil sé uaidh í

he set about her with that whip/whipped her as soundly as Schoolmaster Conchúbhar every whipped any schoolboy in his school... when he had given her a good whipping, he let her go

It makes Séadna sound quite racey!

Oh, yeah, go on Conchubhar, you good thing you! Hit me harder baby!!!

(Sorry, I'll probably be chucked out of the forum for that, but I couldn't resist!)