Colm Ó Broin at Inside Irleand has started publishing a series of essays in Irish and English dealing with the usual anti Irish Language rants in a systematic way.

Gaeilge
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/category/4047/

Béarla
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/category/4048/

Note: The essays are not the same in both languages, so it is worth reading both.

From the article:

quote:

Given that there are children being raised in Irish speaking households in the Gaeltacht and elsewhere at the present time, and that the average life expectancy in Ireland is 79 years, it seems certain that Irish will be alive until 2089 at least, and that's without all those who learn Irish in school or as adults in the meantime.

Not to get too mathematical, but since the average life expectancy is 79 years, that means there will be a lot of people living past that age, which will easily bring the Irish language into the 22nd century, nach mbeidh?

Bleedin' engineers..... \clipart(smile}

Cén fáth nach bhfuil tusa, a Rothaí, ag scríobh as Gaeilge níos mó? Táimid ag fanacht ort ar an taobh eile, tearmann na teanga.

Maith agat ,a Aonghuis.Can't wait for the rest of the series,particularly 'Gaelscoileanna are elitist'.

Tá an-bhrón orm a Thaidhgín. Táim crochta leis m'innealtóireacht. Beidh me ansin go luath.

(Message edited by rothaí on July 06, 2010)

Contra factum non argumentum!

Maith thú, a Rothaí.

Great link. GRMMAG8!

> Maith agat ,a Aonghuis.Can't wait for the rest of
> the series,particularly 'Gaelscoileanna are elitist'.

The perception of Gaelscoileanna as elitist is a very good thing for Irish and should be encouraged as much as possible. I know it runs against the grain of Irish history since the flight of the Wild Geese, but as a marketing tool, it's the bomb.

In fact, DENYING that Gaelscoileanna are elitist is perfect! The denial itself confirms the perception.

Dia Féin a labhraíonn Gaeilge.

'denial confirms the perception' mar a dúirt an t-uasal Mac Uí Aibheilí,bhéidir!

Still,maybe you are correct.Ar an taobh eile;no reason why a great school should be elitist.In Holland nearly everyone goes to a comprehensive.The Dutch are embarrassingly good at languages,but we are not and neither - with their rigid caste system - are the English.

Ireland is opening up, especially the countryfolk (they had the most to go), and there is a more independent mindset setting in- in general. So branding the Gaelscoileanna as elitist doesn't do anything to progress the cause. Branding them as a place where enlightened people, poor and well off, send their kids for a proper education is a better brand and I think this is how most people do actually view the Gaelscoileanna. So it's positive. Everybody loves the concept of the Gaelscoileanna. Elitist brands are negative for the vast majority- except for a few snobs. But they only further their own cause in general so let's not cater to them with a cheap sell.

Elitists brands are negative for the majority when the majority can't afford them - $500 sunglasses and $4000 handbags and expensive luxury cars. People only have a negative attitude because, secretly,they want to BE one of those snobs but can't (attempt to deny it as they may...).

More people would consider gaeilscoileanna than gucci and prada as there is a practical benefit for their children.

"it's only elitism when I can't play, too...otherwise, it's "value"" etc.

As for dealing with anti-Irish-language rants...dealing with ANY rants for that matter...one cannot have a rational discussion with an irrational person. No matter how well formulated the counter-argument, you'll never be able to convince the rabid Irish-hater...but you may sway a few reasonable observers on the sidelines (proverbial observers on proverbial sidelines in the case of print media)

One cannot convince those who hate Irish, obviously.

(One can parody them, however - http://vimeo.com/12683771)

But a systematic marshalling of the arguments like this is worth having.

And those of good will, who might be bemused at the anti Irish rants, can benefit too.

Elitist isn't good. What you want is excellence. You want the idea that there is one helluva education at those schools, suitable for any person from any background. You want the idea that you put your kids in, and gold comes out the other side. You want the level of reputation (backed by fact) to be such that it would be given that you'd have your chidren in Irish-medium schooling to ensure a good, comprehensive education. Elitist counteracts against these thoughts.

So is Trinity the domain of the élite, or the excellent?

Dia dhaoibh go léir.Myself,I think it's a huge pity that a lot more people in this country don't embrace our native Gaeilge.I did not go to a Gaelscoil,but through all my school years-primary and secondary,Gaeilge was always my first love,even though I am not a fluent speaker.
Mar sin,baineann mé triail as Gaeilge a úsáid ar gach seans a fhaigheann mé-chomh minic agus is féidir.Is teanga álainn é agus deireann sé alán méad faoi muid.

quote:

So is Trinity the domain of the élite, or the excellent?

Neither.

Ireland doesn't have any elite Third Level colleges, although those who think of themselves as our elite tend to come from a handful of second level schools.

But we lack both the elite and the excellent; which is why we are in the mess we are.

By the way, I am using elitist in the sense of snobbish. Elite means originally chosen. I think that exclusivity would not bode well for Irish. I don't think Irish has the societal clout to pull off such a position, and I think the caint na ndaoine ethos wouldn't square with it either. I think the concept of openness and welcoming paired with excellence is the way to go. That way no one feels excluded (no excuses) and everyone could feel it would be a benefit. I am interested to see Colm Ó Broin's take.

You can't be excellent without being better than others, by definition. And once you're better, why not be the best and show the world what Irish is good for?

ex·cel
 
 /ɪkˈsɛl/ Show Spelled [ik-sel] Show IPA verb, -celled, -cel·ling.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to surpass others or be superior in some respect or area; do extremely well: to excel in math.
–verb (used with object)
2.
to surpass; be superior to; outdo: He excels all other poets of his day.


e·lite
 
 /ɪˈlit, eɪˈlit/ Show Spelled[ih-leet, ey-leet] Show IPA
–noun
1.
( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2.
( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.
3.
a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.


Irish schools should definitely should be perceived as better, higher quality, a step up, etc. Something people aspire to. Something that impresses the neighbors, the in-laws, etc, because it really is superior.

As long as everyone gets a fair chance to attend regardless of their racial, religious, or economic origins, there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it could be a very egalitarian way of proving one's merit.

"As long as everyone gets a fair chance to attend regardless of their racial, religious, or economic origins, there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it could be a very egalitarian way of proving one's merit."

Can't say I object to meritocracy!

It's already egalitarian though, and viewed as such. It's not like private schools which are viewed as for the elite. And in a negative way. Elitism is not = Excellence. We just need the perception as seanw has argued that the Gaelscoileanna are the most excellent teaching out there for EVERYONE. Not for an elite.

And we definitely do not want an Ireland where people are sending their children to Gaelscoileanna with those negative motives like trying to impress their neighbours or in-laws. That is as backward a motive as you can get. Fine, let people live their lives that way if that's all they know, but do not whore out the Irish language to them. Irish can do without those people.

Why is it, that when I close my eyes I see an image of Síle na Gig giggling at us?

We can't have it both ways though.Power parents in their MPVs who sign up for the wrong reasons may not be in for the long haul.When some 'corpo' kid starts at the Gaelscoil,they could be off 'ar nós na gaoithe'.


I expect there will be 'posh' and 'ordinary' Gaelscoileanna in the long run,just like any other schools in Ireland.Our class system is not as deeply embedded as that of England.It is of much more recent origin and is based entirely on money.But it exists,nonetheless.If Irish medium schools can help to blur these artificial distinctions in some way;so much the better.Go néiri an tádh libh.

quote:

Colm Ó Broin at Inside Irleand has started publishing a series of essays in Irish and English dealing with the usual anti Irish Language rants in a systematic way.

Irish has an uphill battle. The amount of ignorance about the language is incredible.

Some 'highlights' and quotes from a recent online debate.

"Virtually nobody speaks Irish."

"More Irish people speak Polish than Irish."
(note he says Irish people/citizens, rather than residents of Ireland.)

"Only 20,000 speak Irish."

Each of these claims came from different users.

The most common comment is that Irish is 'never heard on the streets of Dublin', but every other language under the sun seems to be. From Polish to Swahili to Finnish etc. Well, maybe Irish speakers need to become more militant and use it without apology. I'm not suggesting approaching random people using Irish like in 'No Béarla', but if you're out in public with someone who can speak Irish and have a choice between the two, choose Irish. Don't worry about people around you. Speak Irish on your mobile more often. I dunno, there have to be ways to make Irish more audible in Dublin. It's too easy to fall back on English out of convenience or deference.

Quite right Danny. I love that old chestnut : You never hear Irish in Dublin.I have been in Dublin twice in this century.On the first occasion I heard Irish spoken on a bus ride.Yet posters to internet forums often claim to have lived there for 20/30/40 years and never heard somuch as 'go raibh maith agat'!

I've heard it several times on train rides in Cork and Kerry.And two of those occasions were young girls chatting on mobies.Just a hunch - but are girls less shy and more upfront about Gaeilge? My sons were pleasantly surprised to see 'quite a few' boys doing Honours Irish Leaving cert in the exam room.But why would the numbers not be roughly even?

You are right also about our over sensitivity.I was in Llanberis once,up in the North Welsh mountains.I found a cosy pub - the Vaynol if tis still there - and I was the only guy not speaking Welsh.I asked the barman a few questions about the locality,as béarla.He replied,pleasntly enough,in English, but then resumed his Welsh conversation with his other customers.Proper order.Conversely,one time in An Daingean, I was seated next to two young lads who were chatting away as Gaeilge.Suddenly they turned to an American lady,who was in their company,and apologised profusely.To her credit she urged them to continue as Gaeilge.But this seemed to me to illustrate the weakness in our approach to this type of situation.I mean if one can't speak Irish in the Gaeltacht,then where?

You can't beat the Welsh when it comes to having the right attitude to your own language. I had a similar experience in North Wales back in 1996. Time being limited and wanting to know just how strong Welsh was in the locality, I went into the local library. I thought that if there are six shelves full of "Teach Yourself Welsh" type things then the language is as good as dead in that area. What I found was half a library full of Welsh language texts on anything you care to think of! What really surprised me was, that there wasn't a word of English to be heard anywhere unless an English person should ask for help, then it was right back to Welsh again. If I weren't Irish I'd want to be Welsh.

We spent a week in Portmadog in North Wales early this year and heard Welsh spoken everywhere in the streets. Groups of mothers with baby-buggies chatted enthusiastically outside the shops and laughed loudly at the latest jokes. The waitress in our hotel was from England but spoke Welsh: "I had to learn it to keep up with the gossip."

All the official signage was bilingual. No variation in font. No italics (for the foreign language) and no reduction in size (for the less important language). Welsh is "the" language.

Poor Ireland is totally anglicised in comparison and the gombeen men are totally in charge. Any concession given to Irish is given grudgingly "for fear of offending the tourists". Fear of having to learn Irish themselves more likely.

Is Ireland the only country in the world where a national language is taught to children with the unspoken hope that they will NOT succeed in aquiring such fluency that they will insist on using it as adults with officialdom?

TG for TG4. They get people to speak Irish who would never have had the opportunity otherwise.

By the way, there is something happening today in Catalunya. The Spanish Government seems to be intervening in the language issue to the detriment of Catalan.

The government won't save Irish...it can't.

That's turned out to be a good life lesson for everyone in a North American or European country...just replace "Irish" with anything else..."the economy"..."jobs"..."the environment"...

It is up to the people to do the important things in this world, and it is the best of governments that realizes its only responsible role is to stay out of their way.

Yes, teach it in schools. Yes, mandate the public sector must be able to deal with people as Gaeilge.

But those things won't save the language, they'll merely support the people in whatever grassroots efforts they feel worthwhile enough to undertake. Beyond support, no government "scheme" is going to substitute for the will, dedication, and tenacity of a people determined to save their language/culture/economy/environment/etc. I think it's taken the Irish most of the 20th century to figure that out about the language, and I sincerely pray that that lesson finds courageous people willing to apply it to their world throughout the 21st.

I am a long way from fluency, but I long for the day when Irish is as commonly heard as English in the streets of every city and town in Ireland. It *can* be done as long as the people realize they are the ones that need to do it, rather than waiting for others to hatch a plan that will do it for them...

You have made an excellent point Antaine.I work in a supermarket and there are a few other staff members who also have a knowledge of Gaeilge and every chance we get we speak as Gaeilge to each other(although not fluent but to the best of our abilities).And customers,also-including my schoolteachers from the past.It upsets me to see the amount of foreign nationals in this country speaking all kinds of different languages and I think that is one of the reasons why Éire is losing its identity and why Gaeilge is almost a forgotten language.In a perfect world,Gaeilge would be our first language and English our second.But sadly,the world isn't perfect.

Gaeilge go deo.

Bulaí fir, Antaine. Mo cheol thú. Well said. Well put.

What then are the issues that us grassroots -- or even one grassroot like me -- can address?

Cupid's arrow does not distinguish between Irish-speaking and non-Irish-speaking men and women so setting up an Irish-speaking family depends principally on mothers and grandparents (who may have to get permission from the non-Irish-speaking partner). It is said of Protestants, Jews, and Muslims that they seek to marry "one of their own" but few people in Ireland would go as far as Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin in his song "Muna bhfuil an tuiseal ginideach agat agus smacht ar do chuid h-annaí".

Men in the Gaeltacht would claim that women were the first to give up speaking Irish and introduce English to the family home. Could that trend be reversed? Could the "Housewife of the Year" competition have an additional criterion or even a separate section? Could photographs of prize-winning mná tí na Gaeltachta be published in the local Press? What an honour in this day and age to be the mother of an Irish-speaking family in the Gaeltacht!! What an advantage for their children.


Naíonraí? We have some we need more.
Gaelscoileanna? ditto
Clubanna iarscoile trí Ghaeilge?
Immeachtaí do Ghaeilgeoirí idir 17 mbliana agus 30 bliain d'aois?

Ionaid Ghaeilge: Centres devoted totally to the Irish language... providing rooms for events ... facilities for Irish language classes ... social areas alcohol- and smoke-free-- gach duine fostaithe ina ghaeilgeoir. (How often have you visited or phoned places you would have thought gave Irish a high priority only to find you were wrong. The staff were English-speaking with no knowledge of Irish -- and angry at having to admit it -- and the publicity all a sham.)


I wonder what should we expect from the Straitéis 20 Bliain?

Imeachtaí do Ghaeilgeoirí idir 17 mbliana agus 30 bliain d'aois?

http://www.cnocadoiri.com

Is an-smaoineamh é sin,a Aonghuis.

Mór an trua go bhfuil me dhá bhliain is triocha d'aois!

Áfach,ceapaim go mbainfeadh alán daoine taitneamh agus sult mór as,agus bfhéidir go bhfuil árdú agus biseach faoin suim sa teanga Gaeilge,le dóchas

quote:

Mór an trua go bhfuil me dhá bhliain is triocha d'aois!

Tá deich bhliain agam ort - ní haon bac é sin ar páirt a ghlacadh sna cnocadóirí. [Taidhgín tréan a chuir an réimse aois síos, rinne mé dearmad ar na comharthaí athfhriotail]

Caithfidh mé an suíomh sin a léigh arís.A Aonghuis,ar ghlac tú páirt sna himeachtaí seo riamh?

Rinne, roinnt uaireanta. Braitheann an tinreamh ar an siúlóid, gan amhras. Tá siúlóid fhada cois trá ann Dé Domhnaigh seo chugainn, ó Bhaile Chill Mhantáin go dtí na Clocha Liath. Níl sé luaite ar an suíomh fós.

Agus an bhfuil sé tábhachtach cén sórt Gaeilge atá ag aon duine-Gaeilge lonrach,nó Gaeilge ar fheabhas,nó Gaeilge cuíosach,nó beagáinín Gaeilge?

quote:

Could photographs of prize-winning mná tí na Gaeltachta be published in the local Press?

Ceard faoi "Bean Óg na Gaeltachta?" Maybe photos of Miss Gaeltacht might have a wider "appeal" and hence do more for the cause.

quote:

Agus an bhfuil sé tábhachtach cén sórt Gaeilge atá ag aon duine-Gaeilge lonrach,nó Gaeilge ar fheabhas,nó Gaeilge cuíosach,nó beagáinín Gaeilge?

Ní dóigh liom é, cé go mbíonn daoine líofa go leor ann.

quote:

Maybe photos of Miss Gaeltacht might have a wider "appeal" and hence do more for the cause

That is the alleged effect of the TG Fóir weather babes. However, Taidhgín was suggesting encouragement for mothers who have achieved something in terms of raising children though Irish, by recognising them. An excellent idea.

Bleedin' programmers - no sense of humor!

Beidh mise ag smaoineamh faoi sin mar beidh mé ar laethanta saoire i mí Meán Fómhar.Beidh mé ag féachaint ar an tsuíomh ar ball chun eolas breise a fháil.Go raibh míle maith agat,a Aonghuis.

The Miss Gaeltacht and Housewife of the Year ideas are redundant in the 21st century, esp. the Housewife of the Year! We have moved on! Yes we have to suffer through the Rose of Tralee but women today won't aspire to Housewife of the Year of Miss Gaeltacht prizes, apart from a few... the motivation to speak Irish and bring your children up through Irish is either there or it isn't.

I'm not sure that is true, Sinéad. You could argue about the title, but I think people do appreciate recognition.

(BTW as part of Comórtas Peile na Gaeltachta there is a Cailín Gaelach competition
http://www.nuacht24.com/fiseain/comortas-peile-na-gaeltachta-2010-laochra-loch-l ao-cailin-gaelach/
)

quote:

Bleedin' programmers - no sense of humor!

Guilty as charged, except that it is a sense of humour I lack....