I've been watching some of the Nuach24 videos on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/nuacht24

It has a heavy northern influence because it's based in Belfast. I notice that some of the speakers pronounce Gaeilge 'Gaelig' or almost like 'Gaelic'.
I don't know IPA so can't describe the sound any better than that, but do you know what I mean?

Others say it as if it were spelled 'Gaelige' or 'Gaeligugh'. 'ugh' as in the sound one might make if punched in the stomach, rather than the ugh in 'Hugh', for example.

What's the most common spelling for Irish in Ulster Irish? Is it Gaeilg?

Wikipedia lists Gaedhilic/Gaeilic/Gaeilig and Gaedhlag for Ulster and north Mayo. I assume this refers to the pre-spelling-reform period.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 27, 2010)

Based to what I heard and to the Linguistic Atlas, in Ulster, people say "Gaeilic" (if we write phonetically), ie. something that may be transcribed (phonologically) /ge:l'ik'/

To me, the spelling that corresponds to that is "Gaeilg", on historical bases (it is the old dative case ; while "Gaeilge" is historically the genitive case).

In the Linguistic Atlas there are 2 places where "Gaeilig" /ge:l'ig'/ is found : North Kilkenny (extinct dialect now) and a dialect of Leitrim (extinct as well) - as a variant.


According to that atlas and to what I heard, "Gaeilige" only exists in the speech of learners - ie. it's a made-up pronunciation, probably by mixing the real Ulster pronunciation "Gaeilic" with the Standard spelling "Gaeilge" (I don't know if they've mixed them on purpose or just by mistake).

And the form "Gaelige" is a common spelling mistake (a consonant is broad after "ae" so you can't have -ae-i- in a word, at least in the modern spellings).

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What's the most common spelling for Irish in Ulster Irish? Is it Gaeilg?

the most common is Gaeilge because Ulster people write in standard Irish and not in their dialect! Even if they say "Gaeilic" they write "Gaeilge"... Very few people write the real Ulster form "Gaeilg". I dunno if people write only "Gaeilge" because they want to write a standard form (as if it were any better!) or because they just think that "Gaeilic" is just the same form as "Gaeilge". I don't think Ulster speakers are aware of the origins of the non-standard forms of their dialect, since these aren't taught except in universities, I guess (and in universities they aren't encouraged to write in their dialect either!). Almost every people write as they were taught at school, and since they were taught standard Irish they write like that (and often don't know how to write many words they use everyday...).

Before the CO, Ulster writers would write in their dialect so the spoken forms would be used in writing.
The following forms can be found in the database of "Tobar" (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/index.htm) :

Gaedhealg
Gaedhilce (genitive)
Gaedhilg
Gaedhilge (genitive)
Gaedhilic
Gaeilg (more recent edition of a text)
Gaeilge (genitive, more recent edition of a text)

So, to me the best solution is to write "Gaeilg" (in nominative and dative cases), it is the "modern" spelling that corresponds to the pre-CO Ulster spelling "Gaedhilg" etc. And it's easy to recognize anyway...

GRMA. I notice that people spell it 'Gaelige' a lot too. What surprised me was how many were pronouncing the word as if it's spelled that way, in the Nuacht24 stories.

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In the Linguistic Atlas there are 2 places where "Gaeilig" /ge:l'ig'/ is found : North Kilkenny (extinct dialect now) and a dialect of Leitrim (extinct as well) - as a variant.

I'm surprised Wagner found any native speakers left in Kilkenny. Wasn't his Linguistic Atlas only released in the late 1950s? In the 1850s (census 1851) it was southern Kilkenny which had more Irish speakers.

Did you watch any of the Nuacht24 videos? Most pronounce it like 'Gaelige' rather than 'Gaeilic'.

In the most recent clip Dónall Ó Baoill (native speaker from Donegal who teaches at Queen's University Belfast) seemed to pronounce it Gaeilge as in the standard Conamara pronunciation on which the spelling is based, rather than an Ulster variant.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 27, 2010)

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I'm surprised Wagner found any native speakers left in Kilkenny. Wasn't his Linguistic Atlas only released in the late 1950s? In the 1850s (census 1851) it was southern Kilkenny which had more Irish speakers.

the material Wagner uses in his atlas has been collected by R.A.Breatnach (in an unpublished thesis) in the 30s.

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Did you watch any of the Nuacht24 videos? Most pronounce it like 'Gaelige' rather than 'Gaeilic'.

not yet

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In the most recent clip Dónall Ó Baoill (native speaker from Donegal who teaches at Queen's University Belfast) seemed to pronounce it Gaeilge as in the standard Conamara pronunciation on which the spelling is based, rather than an Ulster variant.

I know ; D.O Baoill is from Gweedore ; a friend of mine is a student of his and he told me he speaks standard Irish at the university (I guess he would only speak his native dialect when he is in the Donegal Gaeltacht). D. O Baoill is the scholar who created the attempt of standard pronunciation as offered in the Focloir Poca/Scoile. So it's not surprising he uses it himself.

Ok I've watched the last video. People will think I'm a pain in the *rse... but to me most of the people you can hear there (except D. O Baoill, but unfortunately he doesn't speak his dialect, as I said) don't speak properly ; they often make mistakes and they don't pronounce properly at all (their Irish sounds like English) - I mean a learner shouldn't take their speech as examples to follow, except if he/she wants to speak with a Belfast English-speaker accent :-)... It's a pity because I know learners from NI who speak much better than that, who really sound like native speakers from Donegal, but most learners don't make enough efforts to reach that standard...

A Lughaidh, For years the English have been telling us that we here in the North of Ireland don't speak English properly, now we have yourself telling us that we don't speak Irish properly. At least we are consistent - we speak two languages improperly! If I met someone from NI who sounded like a native speaker from Donegal I would think he/she is a native speaker from Donegal!
Well done to all those who took part in that film and for the work they are doing on behalf of the Irish speaking community in NI - 10-15 years ago it would have been unthinkable and impossible. We here in NI have a healthy respect for all speakers of the Irish language regardless of their dialect. We enjoy the language. You wrote 'People will think I'm a pain in the *rse...' in a word, cinnte.


"Is fearr Gaeilge briste na Béarla cliste."

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For years the English have been telling us that we here in the North of Ireland don't speak English properly,

Don't believe them. Ulster English is a dialect of English, as good as any other dialect.

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If I met someone from NI who sounded like a native speaker from Donegal I would think he/she is a native speaker from Donegal!

yes, and ?

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We here in NI have a healthy respect for all speakers of the Irish language regardless of their dialect.

as I have ; but these people don't speak a dialect, they just speak Irish with mistakes and a bad pronunciation.
Just like my English : I speak English with mistakes and a not-so-good pronunciation... and nobody would say I speak a dialect of English, because it's not my first language. Just the same thing...

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You wrote 'People will think I'm a pain in the *rse...' in a word, cinnte.

I know what Irish people think (I mean, people who don't speak Irish properly) when you tell them they make mistakes and don't pronounce properly... Being Irish doesn't make your Irish perfect, speaking a language is not a genetic feature, you have to learn it, which means you can't speak it like a native speaker unless you make enough efforts (to get rid of mistakes, English sounds and accent etc). I know it's terrible to hear that but it's just the truth, in every country of the world!

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"Is fearr Gaeilge briste na Béarla cliste."

lol
Is fearr Gaeilg chliste ná Gaeilg bhriste !
Speaking bad Irish is not enough...

Pain in the *rse = Someone who says a truth that nobody wants to face!
But what is better: illusions and lies or the truth?

If I met someone from NI who was speaking like a native speaker from Donegal - I would ask them why on earth they are speaking like that. Are you really saying that is what we should aspire to? 55 years ago the native Irish speakers from Tyrone didn't sound like native speakers from Donegal. Also, I really don't need reassured that the Ulster dialect is as good as any other dialect as I never have believed there is anything wrong with it. You may speak the truth as you put it- What is true for me is that I love being part of the thriving Irish speaking community in NI - even with it's 'mistakes and bad pronounciation'. Believe it or not, even though my Irish is not perfect, I spend most weekends in Donegal with my native Irish speaking friends conversing with them in Irish and I still don't sound like them - maybe as you say I am just not making the effort - and you are right.

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If I met someone from NI who was speaking like a native speaker from Donegal - I would ask them why on earth they are speaking like that.

why? because as a learner he/she shouldn't speak properly? lol

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Are you really saying that is what we should aspire to?

What do learners (of any language) want to achieve : speaking like learners or speaking like native speakers? What is the example to follow? Those who speak properly or those who make mistakes etc? Is Ireland on another planet? :-)

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55 years ago the native Irish speakers from Tyrone didn't sound like native speakers from Donegal.

I heard old recordings and they sounded like people from Donegal.
ANyway those students from Belfast don't speak Antrim Irish (which died in the first part of the 20th century, if I remember well) not Tyrone Irish, they just speak Irish with mistakes and their usual Belfast-English accent...

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You may speak the truth as you put it- What is true for me is that I love being part of the thriving Irish speaking community in NI - even with it's 'mistakes and bad pronounciation'.

Fine, if you're aware that it's not a model to follow it's ok.

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Believe it or not, even though my Irish is not perfect, I spend most weekends in Donegal with my native Irish speaking friends conversing with them in Irish and I still don't sound like them - maybe as you say I am just not making the effort - and you are right.

Depends on your aims. Normally learners of any language want to speak as well as possible, ie. as close to native speech as possible. I don't understand why this universal feature is so rare in Ireland... I heard students of French, in NI, who spoke French with an almost perfect accent. I don't understand what jams with Irish. Maybe because they hear much more bad Irish than Gaeltacht Irish from the very beginning and don't manage to get rid of their bad habits?... to me it's a mystery. Any thoughts?

As you say, it's not their monther tongue Lughaidh,, so what more can you expect? What more can they do to improve their Irish? I commend anyone who is willing to be interviewed and filmed.

My favourite clip from Nuacht24 is from Carn Tóchair in county Derry. Supposedly the only community outside the Gaeltacht where the majority of children are educated through the medium of Irish. Some of the children are being raised with Irish in the home from infancy, too.
Surely they are native speakers?

Here's one young girl (02:17-02:46 in the clip)
http://www.youtube.com/user/nuacht24#p/u/29/AcC_pw0oRSQ

Feis Charn Tóchair 2009, 4min20s

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As you say, it's not their monther tongue Lughaidh,, so what more can you expect?

well... make efforts to speak better. Anyway the problem is not that learners don't speak properly, which is quite normal, but that many people think every video or recording in Irish is a model to follow (and that many Irish people claim to speak good Irish simply because they are Irish citizens... as if it were something genetic, or something like that).

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What more can they do to improve their Irish?

first of all, to try to pronounce the native sounds, it's not that hard...

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Some of the children are being raised with Irish in the home from infancy, too.
Surely they are native speakers?

In the case of minority languages, it's quite different from other languages, because you can be raised with a language by people who don't speak it properly. So stricto sensu you'll be a native speaker but you won't speak it properly (except if you try to correct all the wrong things you were taught). While Gaeltacht speakers are raised with Irish by people whose first language was Irish, and so on since the Iron Age :-)
To me, in Ireland those who must be called native speakers are these. All the others are learners or, say "neo-native speakers" or whatever, but we shouldn't use the same name for all speakers because the Irish of the Gaeltacht is reliable, while the Irish that was taught to children by learning parents isn't, most of the time.

Good Irish isn't something impossible to define, it's easy to know what it is, just listen to Gaeltacht speakers from anywhere, or read studies about Gaeltacht Irish dialects. All the things that don't exist in these dialects are bad Irish, that's all... As in all languages, what doesn't exist in the speech/writing of native speakers is wrong.

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Surely they are native speakers?

Here's one young girl (02:17-02:46 in the clip)
http://www.youtube.com/user/nuacht24#p/u/29/AcC_pw0oRSQ

She says :

leis an cultúr Gaelach, instead of "leis an chultúr Ghaelach" or "leis an gcultúr Gaelach"
i Contae Goire, instead of "i gContae Dhoire" (or Ulster: i gCondáidh Dhoire)
scaifte ollmhór de Gaeiligeoirí, instead of "de Ghaeilgeoirí"
atá ag freastal > she pronounces the g, while native speakers would say "atá 'freastal"

gan trácht ar an fhuaimniú... she doesn't make a difference between broad and slender except for a few of them (t, d, s...), of course her r's are pure English ones. A good point though, it looks like she pronounces the ch's more or less properly (while most learners/neonative speakers use a k-sound for both slender and broad ch, which is awful).

and so on.

So, is this native Irish ?...
Nothing personal but this Irish isn't an example to follow, not yet.

Just listen to Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh or other native speakers and you'll see the difference : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK-FJ5GBo28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD-_l5p3MzI&feature=related

Nach gcluineann sibh duifear ar bith?...

(Message edited by Lughaidh on May 28, 2010)

And listen to what the woman in red says about the pronunciation of learners :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIp4aeCHU9s&feature=related

quote:

She says :

leis an cultúr Gaelach, instead of "leis an chultúr Ghaelach" or "leis an gcultúr Gaelach"
i Contae Goire, instead of "i gContae Dhoire" (or Ulster: i gCondáidh Dhoire)
scaifte ollmhór de Gaeiligeoirí, instead of "de Ghaeilgeoirí"
atá ag freastal > she pronounces the g, while native speakers would say "atá 'freastal"

That can't be the same person. I was referring to the little girl in the clip, not the woman at the beginning. The young girl speaks from 2:17 to 2:46. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/user/nuacht24#p/u/29/AcC_pw0oRSQ

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 28, 2010)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD-_l5p3MzI&feature=related

I've seen this clip before and would encourage anyone interested in Ulster Irish to watch.

There are two parts in particular.

1:17-2:01 A local student with great sounding Irish (to my ears)

4:24-5:27 A young woman named Kayla Reid, from Idaho in the USA. She came to Donegal with no Irish, now listen to her. An inspiration to all us learners!

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That can't be the same person. I was referring to the little girl in the clip, not the woman at the beginning. The young girl speaks from 2:17 to 2:46. What do you think?

Cute but not properly pronounced, to me...

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1:17-2:01 A local student with great sounding Irish (to my ears)

aye, she's probably a native speaker. Nice.

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4:24-5:27 A young woman named Kayla Reid, from Idaho in the USA. She came to Donegal with no Irish, now listen to her. An inspiration to all us learners!

Nice too, it'd be nice if all learners could reach that standard. Nice to see that she uses many Gweedore things in her Irish... She has understood what learning a language is :-) All learners of Irish should do like her!

What are some examples of Gweedore things in her Irish?

For example she says [ɔbwij] for "obair" (pronouncing slender r's as a y-sound is typical of Gweedore Irish), -cht as -rt (with a devoiced r ; it exists in Tory as well and maybe Cloghaneely)

+ features that are typical of (NW) Donegal but not specifically Gweedore : "ráidht" for "rá", "Gaeilic", "leofa", dheá (=dhá), achan nduine, ar aist...

I wholeheartedly agree with you Beanrua.

Dá mbeadh gach cainteoir Gaeilge mar an gcéanna le Lughaidh, bheadh ár dteanga marbh cheana féin. Is maith an rud é mar sin nach bhfuil aige ach dearcadh mionlach agus go bhfuil pobal an-láidir Gaeilge againn ar fud na tíre, ach go háirithe i measc mhuintir na mbailte móra srl.
Rinneadh iarracht an Ghaeilge a chur faoi chois ach tá sí ag teacht i réim arís a bhuí le hobair na ndaoine seo atá le feiceáil ar Nuacht24 agus áiteanna eile. Go maire siad, agus an teanga atá acu.

If every Irish speaker was like Lughaidh, the language would already be dead. Luckily he represents only a minority view and thanks to people like those interviewed on Nuacht24 and elsewhere we now have vibrant Gaelic communities throughout Ireland, especially in Dublin, Belfast and other large cities and towns. May they, and our language, long continue.

If everybody considers mistakes, replacing every Irish sound by the closest English one, every Irish idiom by an English one, are OK, in a couple of decades Irish will just be English hidden behind Irish words. Of course it'll be much easier to learn : learn just 100 words, pronounce them as in English and put them together in the same order as the English equivalent, and you can claim you speak Irish.

Except... it won't be Irish anymore. Just people pretending to speak something that *looks* different from English.

People like me just want Irish to remain what it is in the Gaeltacht ie. an interesting language, interesting because of all its peculiarities, all its differences in comparison with the other languages.
You may prefer disguised English if you like.

We'll see what the Irish people want to do : learning disguised English or learning an interesting language, that they ancestors spoke.

What is *your* language ? "Un will shay un Gwaylgah?" (or "better" : "taw shay un Gwaylgah?"), nó an í an Ghaeilg í?

Thagh mise cad é an teangaidh is fearr liom.

Dá mbeadh achan chainteoir Gaeilge cosúil liom, ní bhfuigheadh an Ghaeilg bás go deo, mar nach mbeasmaid sásta go ndéanfaí praiseach don teangaidh.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on June 28, 2010)

I agree with you Rg_cuan , all you can do is learn the language and speak it, to the best of your ability. i think to watch a piece of video fotage and judge it is silly , we all make mistakes daily even native speakers of Every Language ,, look at some of the major mistakes made by political speakers and Presidents , does that make then any less native? I can guarantee other Irish speakers understand me and non Irish speakers dont ..As for learning 100 words and pronounch them in English and for someone who puts Irish words in English order is just crazy as no one will teach you this way as You learn from Lesson one that there is a Different word order i.e mé bhí ansin/ I was there... Just wont happen i my opinion if the Learner has been in a classroom situation or used a proper recomended Irish course Tús maith etc.

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to the best of your ability.

that's the problem : many learners don't do their best and they don't care.

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we all make mistakes daily even native speakers of Every Language ,,

yes, but there's a difference between making one mistake a day and making ten mistakes in every sentence.

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look at some of the major mistakes made by political speakers and Presidents , does that make then any less native?

they probably make mistakes according to standard English, but not (or few) according to their own dialect.
There are several sorts of native English: there's a standard dialect and non-standard dialects.

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I can guarantee other Irish speakers understand me and non Irish speakers dont ..

and? I can guarantee other Irish speakers understand me as well and non-Irish speakers don't !

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As for learning 100 words and pronounch them in English and for someone who puts Irish words in English order is just crazy as no one will teach you this way

but many do that way, even teachers.

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You learn from Lesson one that there is a Different word order i.e mé bhí ansin/ I was there... Just wont happen

one day it will happen, if we accept all mistakes as OK, as you do!

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i my opinion if the Learner has been in a classroom situation or used a proper recomended Irish course Tús maith etc.

as if being in a classroom prevented you from making mistakes, lol
And using Tus Maith is ok, but... you have to work seriously if you want to speak properly. Many people make mistakes, that they wouldn't make if they followed Tus maith seriously, you see. But they are like you, they don't care.

The difference between you and me are these:
- to me, good Irish is better than bad Irish
- to me, the model to follow is Gaeltacht Irish since it's the only Irish that's been transmitted from generation to generation, like all other languages (if you want to learn Spanish you try to speak like a Spanish person, not like an English person who's learning Spanish, don't you?)
- to me, mistakes should be corrected. Every kind of Irish isn't alright, only proper Irish is.
- to me, it is normal that learners make mistakes, but it's not normal that people consider that the Irish spoken by learners is a model to follow, as good or even better than Gaeltacht Irish (do you think my German is a model to follow LOL). And to me it's a pity that so much Irish that you can hear on the internet or on TG4 is so bad.
In Catalonia, they managed to revive their language because they hired good speakers in the media and schools, so all learners had good models to follow. As far as I know it was successful. In Ireland people should do the same way, otherwise Irish will become nonsense in a few years.

Yes, you are obviously right, Lughaidh - it's obvious to me anyway!

Does anyone really think it's okay to imitate a learner's speech rather than a fluent native speaker in ANY language? I don't understand how anyone could be opposed to what you are saying

Tuigim duit ar bhealach Lughaidh ach, le bheith ionraic, tá caighdeán ginearálta na nua-chainteoirí dúchais srl. measartha ard. Is iomaí duine chomh maith a bhfuil Gaeilge foghlamtha acu go leibhéal an-chumasach ar fad agus go deimhin labhraíonn cuid acu níos cruinne ná roinnt cainteoirí dúchais sa lá atá inniu ann.

Most learners I know strive to improve and I know many people who have continued to hone their language skills year after year. Living here in Ireland, speaking Irish on a daily basis to dozens of native Gaeltacht speakers, new native speakers and learners alike, I am very confident about the future of our language, am proud of what we have achieved and am excited about where our community is going.

Na Gaeil Abú!

Dála an scéil, the Catalans have always had millions of native speakers so their revival can hardly be compared to ours.

(Message edited by RG_Cuan on June 28, 2010)

My impression is that Irish isn't taken seriously by most people, which limits its influence and makes a 'revival' on a large scale difficult. I'm constantly stunned by the lack of awareness of Irish.

A lot of it is little things. Quite insignificant in isolation, but it all adds up. From referring to TG4 as 'TnaG' (is it 1996?) to complaints about a pass in Irish for entry the civil service still being required (something that was dropped more than 30 years ago, IIRC) to the complete absence of fadas. Eire instead of Éire, Dail instead of Dáil. Common words that even non-Irish speakers in Ireland see all the time. One of the main Irish newspapers can't even be bothered to spell basic words in Irish correctly. It's not that they aren't aware, they just don't care! It's a complete lack of respect and lack of interest.

And even for many people who are positively disposed to Irish, it's little more than a symbolic gesture. Something to be trotted out on special occasions. Something to be used for tattoos. Not a living language with 'real world' uses (as they see it). It's like Irish is in a straightjacket.

I agree again with you Rg_cuan, the strides made in the North are nothing less than amazing in some cases .. With the cultúrlann in Derry and Belfast and the amount of Gaelscloileanna srl.. i know that is looking on the positive side .. but why not .. i feel it really depends on your outlook weather you are a positive person or a negative person .. for me as often as i can i try to look at the glass being half full. Am i oblivious to the negativity and downsides ?... No ... But honestly why dwell on them .. Deal with them but dont dwell on them.

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Tuigim duit ar bhealach Lughaidh ach, le bheith ionraic, tá caighdeán ginearálta na nua-chainteoirí dúchais srl. measartha ard.

Mo bharúil nach bhfuil caighdeán ard agad má chluintear ins an chéad soicind nach cainteoir dúchais thú. Caithfear labhairt mar chainteoirí dúchais ie. mar chainteoirí Gaeltachta.
Char chualaidh mise mórán cainteoirí neamhdhúchasacha a rabh cuma Ghaeilg na Gaeltachta ar a gcuid Gaeilge. Chualaidh, ach cha rabh ann ach cupla duine. Blas Béarla a bíos ag chóir a bheith achan chainteoir neamhdhúchasach, monuar.
Ní obair dhodhéanta fuaimeannaí na Gaeilge a fhoghlaim agus a úsáid, caithfear éisteacht agus aithris, agus labhairt, labhairt, labhairt agus éireann an béal cleachtaí leis na fuaimeannaí cearta deasa, agus ina dhiaidh sin bíonn sé deacair labhairt ar dhóigh eile, dh'aon turas féin!

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Is iomaí duine chomh maith a bhfuil Gaeilge foghlamtha acu go leibhéal an-chumasach ar fad agus go deimhin labhraíonn cuid acu níos cruinne ná roinnt cainteoirí dúchais sa lá atá inniu ann.

Níos cruinne... cad é dá réir? De réir rialacha ghraiméar an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil?
Sin an rud : go deo beidh rud inteacht breise ag na cainteoirí Gaeltachta, mar go rabh Gaeilg thart faofa ó rugadh iad. Chualaidh siad i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge maithe ná na daoiní eile, má labhrann siad seo go maith féin. Rud céarna leis na teangthacha eile. Is beag duine a bhfuil an t-eolas céarna aige ar theangaidh iasachta agus atá ag cainteoir dúchas, fiú nuair is duine a labhras gan blas gallda ar bith. Braitheann sé ar an mhéad don teangaidh a chualaidh tú agus ar an aois ar chualaidh tú an teangaidh ar tús (is fearr a fhoghlaimeas na páistí teangthacha, tá's agad, mar nach bhfuil a n-inchinn "críochnaí" go fóill).