From Today's Irish Times, an op ed by Pat Carey (new Minister for the Gaeltacht)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/anteangabheo/2010/0526/1224271143969.html

Further information and details of the committee

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/Scoipanphroisis/

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/AthbhreithniuarangCaighdeanOifigiu ilCoisteStiurtha/

(There is a tab for the English version of the sites top left)

Thanks for those links Aonghus.

I see the rules regarding personal numerals is mentioned and differences between CB, Ó Dónaill and the Caighdeán are to be reconciled.

For me I was confused about what happened to nouns that follow after the personal numbers, and settled for the genitive plural, though one source said nominative singular (CB), and the others said genitive plural.

Another thing that confused was what happens to F nouns after a preceding feminine noun, and I ended up emailing Focal.ie and got an answer from them which was fantastic. All the grammar learning sources were saying different things. Anyway in that case they said the noun starting with F going after feminine noun should never get a séimhiú.

What else do you anticipate they will look at? I think the revisions will be a great help to everyone.

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For me I was confused about what happened to nouns that follow after the personal numbers, and settled for the genitive plural, though one source said nominative singular (CB), and the others said genitive plural.

Just use what Gaeltacht people use... no need to be confused. I use genitive plural (which is the most logical, since you say beirt bhan, triúr ban...)

Didn't I find the right document, or did they only discuss the lenition rules ???

Níl ansin ach sampla: de réir mo thuiscint tá an cáipéis sin ann le fada. Plépháipéir de chuid an Coiste Téarmaíochta atá ann, ní obair de chuid an Choiste nua seo, atá díreach bunaithe.

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Lar-AonadAistriuchain/Copy%20of%20ACO_Treimhse%20comhair liuchain%201.doc

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Don chéad tréimhse comhairliúcháin, is mian leis an CSA leasuithe ar an gcáipéis, “Moltaí an Choiste Téarmaíochta faoi Úsáid an tSéimhithe i gCásanna ar Leith”, mar a shonraítear thíos iad, a chur faoi bhráid an phobail.

Thanks for the links. With the help of the awkward Google Translate, I was able to get the gist of Pat Carey's article.

One thing I've never entirely understood about the 'Official Written Standard'... Does the spelling reform and the official grammar fall under the 'Official Written Standard' or are they seperate? One taking place in the late 40s and the other in 1958??

Both part of a process which was ongoing for some time.

Review of An Caighdeán Oifigíúil Steering Committee

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1. Director of Translation Services (Chairperson)
2. Translator (Grade III) (Secretary)
3. Translator (Grade II)
4. Pádraig Ó Mianáin
5. Seosamh Ó Murchú
6. Fidelma Ní Ghallchobhair
7. Micheál P. Ó Cearúil
8. Éamonn Murtagh
9. Gearóid Denvir
10. Liam Mac Mathúna
11. Áine Ní Chonghaile
12. Róisín Ní Mhianáin
13. Máire Uí Dhufaigh
14. Liam Ó Cuinneagáin
15. Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín
16. Bríd Ní Choincheanainn
17. Dónall Ó Baoill
18. Pádhraic Ó Ciardha
19. Aoife Ní Chonchúir
20. Áine Ní Dhíoraí
21. Alan Titley
22. Pól Ó Muirí

That list includes some heavy hitters. Especially Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín from Fiontar DCU. I've only read her works in English so far.
I was wondering if they would include the dialectologist Brian Ó Curnáin from the School of Celtic Studies, DIAS.

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Both part of a process which was ongoing for some time.

Okay. It seems that this time only a review of the grammar is envisaged?

As I understand it only a review of certain problems identified is intended.

(I'll confess to not being terribly interested or knowledgeable.)

http://www.pobail.ie/en/CentralTranslationUnit/TheScopeoftheProcess/

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(I'll confess to not being terribly interested or knowledgeable.)

I wonder how many are actually on tenterhooks.

Oh, I see the need for it for those involved in translation of official documents. Although I think the real problem there is an inability to see beyond forms used in English which juts won't translate - leading to a cascade of nouns and uncertainty as to which should be in the genitive.

There are ways around that, and those should be used.

I'd like to see an Irish version of Strunk and White.

I thought "juts" a very evocative word like "anorak" or "thicks" until I looked at it a second time.

Ó a dhiabhail. Sciorradh méire. Aistriúcháinis aistreánach a bhí i gceist agam.

They will probably allow for the relative forms in the revisions.. 'a bheas', etc. I'm not 100% sure but I think in the old caighdeán in that particular case they outlined 'a bheidh' as proper practice.

I hope they bring back the ~ga / ~dha adjectival ending i.e. go príomhga or go príomhdha instead of go príomha. We have it in fearga and cróga and other words.

They also need to consider a ruling for the spelling of placenames: don't obliterate the meaning. Let "Inis Eiscir Abhann" be acceptable instead of "Inis Crabhann" or "Cuan Bhanbha" instead of "Cuan Bhanú" etc. Where ever the meaning is clear there is no reason to conceal it. That's killing the language a second time. The first was at the behest of the English authorities in Ireland. The only reason we study Irish is to experience the insight it gives us into our country, its history, and topography. If we lose that we might as well accept the "Roselawns" "Cedar Parks" and "River Forests" without complaint.

my least favourite street name has to be Plás an Dúnsméara (nó rud éigin mar sin) for Beresford Place!

eadaoin

Tuige?

Cheap mé go raibh bunús éigin leis, ach feicim nach bhfuil.

http://www.iol.ie/~sob/sraid/tablabac.html

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Bréag-Ghaeilge áiféiseach, “Lána Dúinsméara,” atá ar na hainmchláir

GRMA as ucht an suíomh sin, Aonghus

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I'd like to see an Irish version of Strunk and White.

Me too. I think this would be a great problem solver. I actually would be very interested in creating something like that, but, alas, I don't have the knowledge or fluency to even go down that road.

Nor I.

That requires years of study and writing, not dabbling like I do.

*thinking out loud*

What sort of timeframe are we talking about here? It could be years before any changes are actually made. I wonder what sort of impact it will have on learners.

Séard a dúirt Sinéad:

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They will probably allow for the relative forms in the revisions.. 'a bheas', etc. I'm not 100% sure but I think in the old caighdeán in that particular case they outlined 'a bheidh' as proper practice.

Nope - relative forms are expressly permitted ("is cead sin a úsáid") in the CO, and have been ever since its inception. Their morphology was left unspecified presumably to allow for dialectal variation, e.g. "a bhíos" vs. "a bhíonns", and it doesn't say explicitly but of course their non-use (normal in Munster) is equally permitted.

The relevant paragraph is on page 48 in the current printing:
Ní thugtar sna samplaí an fhoirm leithleach don choibhneasta neamhspléach, san aimsir láithreach agus san aimsir fháistineach, modh táscach, ach is cead sin a úsáid. (Úsáidtear í i gcónaí i gcás an bhriathair 'leanaim' in abairtí mar 'na focail seo a leanas').

source: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/a-misc/Caighdean20091105.pdf

That's interesting Abigail. I wasn't 100% sure, but I did wonder. This is why. A native speaker I know from Conamara did their degree through Irish and a lecturer corrected her when she used 'a bheas' and told her the "correct" form was 'a bheidh'.

Mm, I'm mildly disappointed by that, but not outraged or even too surprised. University lecturers are fallible too. I know cos I iz one. (Or might be eventually if I'd ever get this dissertation written... )

(Message edited by Abigail on May 28, 2010)

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A native speaker I know from Conamara did their degree through Irish and a lecturer corrected her when she used 'a bheas' and told her the "correct" form was 'a bheidh'.

that lecturer should read New Irish Grammar and An Caighdean Oifigiuil again because "a bheas" is in them, as far as I know... He wants to be more caighdean than the caighdean lol

As someone said (here or on another Irish forum), it's hard to find people who'd be more intolerant and narrow-minded than some of the Standard Irish supporters...
If those saw how I write Irish they'd have a heart attack lol

(Message edited by Lughaidh on May 28, 2010)

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it's hard to find people who'd be more intolerant and narrow-minded than some of the Standard Irish supporters...

The same might be said of some dialect-obsessed linguists

Aonghus, regarding

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an Irish version of Strunk and White.

I think they may already exist. I have five books to hand which address good Irish usage:

AISTRIGH LEAT le Maolmhaodhóg Ó Ruairc
AISTRIGH GO GAEILGE, Treoirleabhar, le Maolmhaodhóg Ó Ruairc
DÚCHAS NA GAEILGE le Maolmhaodhóg Ó Ruairc
CUIR GAEILGE AIR le Antain Mac Lochlainn
AR THÓIR AN FHOCAIL CHRUINN, Iriseoirí, Téarmeolaithe agus Fadhbanna an Aistriúcháin: Eagarthóirí: Máirín Nic Eoin agus Liam Mac Mathúna.

There are others such as Lorg an Bhéarla and a study of that author's translations. Many of An Gúm's translations are now being mined for style. Then there is Tobar na Gaeilge by Ciarán Ó Duibhín.

The website www.acmhainn.ie has lots more...

We have no excuse.

Since there are probably no monoglot Irish speakers now we are all translators hence we have to study English carefully in order to know what to include and what to avoid.

Having received Irish in beautiful condition -- I am thinking of An tOileánach, Cré na Cille, Na Rosa go Brách, and Diabhal Smid Bréige Ann as examples of good Irish -- we must try and pass it on as a living vibrant language in the best state we can manage. It will be as different as our lives are different. Thatching, turf-cutting, súgán-making, churning, and spinning are no longer part of our lives but we have new terminology for an ríomhaire, an carr, an t-eitleán, an teilifís, and saol na cathrach.

There will be new words to be heard in Irish in 100 years' time: I hope there's a possibility of us being aware of such developments. Unlikely! Nach trua sin!

Those (some of which I've read_) are concerned more with translation, and particularly thorny issues. I agree that many of use are often mentally translating.

But Strunk and White is a slim book with very good advice, which covers most cases.

I suppose a distillation of the above is what I am yearning for.

Unless I am ag míogarnaigh I think I bought "The Elements of Style" by Strunk and White again even though I never threw out my first copy bought long ago for UCD when English was taught by scary Dennis Donoghue / Kevin McHugh / John Jordan / Maurice Harmon / Thomas Kilroy et al.

Táim cinnte go mbeidh cuimhne ag léitheoirí anseo ar na laochra sin gan trácht ar F. R. Leavis {The English Novel?) agus "Practical Criticism" nuair a chaithfeá dán ainaithnid a léamh don chéad uair agus léirmheas a scríobh air. Ina dhiaidh sin féin táim beo. Thángas slán.