Would the following sentences make sense:

Ba lugha saidhbhreas iad ná a gcomhursana.
(They were less wealthy than their neighbours.)

Is lugha breaghthacht (í) an bhean ná a máthair.
(The woman is less beautiful than her mother.)

My underestanding is that is lú saibhreas means "who are the least wealthy", not "less wealthy"

is iad na daoine is lú saibhreas in Éirinn iad - they are the least wealthy people in Ireland

na réigiún is lú buntáiste - disadvantaged regions

I thought sai(dh)bhreas was the noun and sai(dh)bhir the adjective, thus Bhíodar ní ba lú saibhir ná a gcomhursana or Ba lú an saibhreas acu ná ag a gcomharsana(ibh). Ná fuil an ceart aige sin?

Lú takes the noun in the bunfhoirm - and I would argue it is in the accusative case functionally.

De Bhaldraithe's dictionary under "less" shows: is lú práinn mo ghnósa ná a ghnósin. So it is possible to use "ná" after this, but note that práinn is a noun.

From this point of view, James' first example above is correct. With only one quibble - that the plural of comharsa should be comharsain. (the CO plural comharsana is manifestly taken from the vocative plural - so many things are mixed up and just plain wrong in the CO! - see the declension tables for the 5th declension in the old Christian Brothers' Grammar circa 1904).

ba lúġa saiḋḃreas iad ná a gcóṁarsain.

This has got to be right according to the examples in de Bhaldraithe and the quote from PUL (na daoine is lú ciall in Éirinn, na daoine gan Bhéarla gan Ghaelainn), but is surprisingly rare in literature....

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My underestanding is that is lú saibhreas means "who are the least wealthy", not "less wealthy"


is iad na daoine is lú saibhreas in Éirinn iad - they are the least wealthy people in Ireland

Yes, I'm familiar with that type of sentence.
I was wondering if the same construction - "Is/Ba lugha + (abstract) noun" - could be used in comparative sentences.*

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I thought sai(dh)bhreas was the noun and sai(dh)bhir the adjective, thus Bhíodar ní ba lú saibhir ná a gcomhursana or Ba lú an saibhreas acu ná ag a gcomharsana(ibh). Ná fuil an ceart aige sin?

As far as I know a noun follows the comparative adjective* in cases like this.
I'm unsure about "Bhíodar ní ba lú saibhir ná a gcomhursana" where the verb "bí" is used.


(*My grasp of grammatical terminology is weak at best so I may have made mistakes in their usage above.)

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De Bhaldraithe's dictionary under "less" shows: is lú práinn mo ghnósa ná a ghnósin. So it is possible to use "ná" after this, but note that práinn is a noun.

That's very interesting, thanks.

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that the plural of comharsa should be comharsain.

Dinneen's dictionary gives both "-ain" and "-ana". I thought it best to use "-ana" as it's the form most likely to be familiar to others here.

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na daoine is lú ciall in Éirinn, na daoine gan Bhéarla gan Ghaelainn

Isn't this a superlative sentence? "The people (with) least sense...."

>>>Isn't this a superlative sentence? "The people (with) least sense...."

Yes, and very interesting what he meant by it in context(PUL was quoting someone else): that a nation would grow up speaking incorrect English and incorrect Irish.

PUL was opposed to Hiberno-English - all that "do be" stuff - although he also admired the way the teachers managed to teach through English children with no English or little in the way of good English, and so he deprecated the abusive style of the inspectors when they came to a school where the children all said "do be".

PUL was also opposed to bad Irish - it is extremely unlikely he would have approved of the Caighdeán Oifigiúil. You would have to read the relevant passages of Mo Sgéal Féin to get his views on language - he was a man of his times, of course, expressing views common in his day.

Seo tuairim na Bráithre:

Is í an bhreischéim a úsáidtear nuair a thráchtar ar cháilíocht áirithe a bheith níos tréine ag duine (rud, grúpa) áirithe seachas a chéile, nó ag an duine (rud,
grúpa) céanna faoi thosca áirithe seachas a chéile.

Is í foirm ghinideach uatha bhaininscneach na haidiachta a úsáidtear chuige sin go hiondúil: báine, saibhre, giorra, fearúla, breátha; agus tugtar breischéim na haidiachta ar an bhfoirm sin nuair a úsáidtear i gcomparáid í.
Ní dhíochlaontar an bhreischéim

---

Is lú foighne atá agam istoíche!

Aonghus I think the CBs are talking about the comparative vs. the gsf of the adjective - these are normally THE SAME, and the distinction is in function, not in form. The gsf is called the comparative when it is used in a comparison.

Of course there are gsf's, eg bige that are not the same as the comparative, eg fearr.

bige??

Beag / níos lú / laghad

Ach "ag treabhadh na páirce bige" (gsf = ginideach uatha baininscneach)

Is fearrde muid ar fad an léamh chúramach! Sílim go raibh meascán ar DW agus é ag lua fearr seachas lú.

Yes, tá an ceart agat, a Thaidhgín.

Most adjectives have the comparative the same as the genitive singular feminine: níos fuaire (colder) is comparative. Ag ól dí fuaire (to drink a cold drink) is genitive singular feminine.

But for beag, the comparative is lú: níos lú, smaller. Whereas the genitive singular feminine is bige. An example from Mo Sgéal Féin: Chruinnigheas cuid de bhuachaillíbh na sráide bige sin agus do labhras leó.

Yes, Aonghus, I meant bige and lú. The same is true of maithe and fearr.

re: ag ól dí fuaire, according to the rules on Lars' site there is no genitive of an indefinite noun that is the object of a verbal noun and itself qualified by an adjective. But I have done exhaustive searches on the works of PUL to find examples of this - and have found none - but have found that other genitive rules on Lars' site are at variance with PUL - so I am sticking with: ag ól dí fuaire, for now at least.

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Is lú foighne atá agam istoíche!

"I have less patience tonight" ?

Is "Tá níos lugha foighne agam istoidhche" possible here too?

Is duine géarshúileach thu, a Shéamuis!

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"I have less patience tonight" ?

Ní hea, ach "I have less patience at night (nó "nights" más Poncán tú!). Nó go litriúl

It is less patience I have at night.

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Is "Tá níos lugha foighne agam istoidhche" possible here too?

Tá.

Aonghus, with is lú meaning "least" and not "less", I think your sentence means "my patience is at its lowest ebb at night".

Féach na Bráithre, thuas:
Is í an bhreischéim a úsáidtear nuair a thráchtar ar cháilíocht áirithe a bheith níos tréine ag duine (rud, grúpa) áirithe seachas a chéile, nó ag an duine (rud, grúpa) céanna faoi thosca áirithe seachas a chéile.

Tá "seachas ag amanna eile" intuigthe san méid a scríobh mé.

Is í an bhreischéim a úsáidtear nuair a thráchtar ar cháilíocht áirithe a bheith níos tréine ag duine (rud, grúpa) áirithe seachas a chéile, nó ag an duine (rud, grúpa) céanna faoi thosca áirithe seachas a chéile.

"It is the comparative form that is used when we are discussing how a certain quality of a person, thing or group is stronger than another's, or when in special circumstances this quality of the same person, thing or group is relatively stronger".

Aonghus, this has nothing to do with use of the superlative vs. the comparative. Níos lú=smaller. Is lú= the least. I think Séamus is right on this point, but as I pointed out above, my translation of ""my patience is at its lowest ebb at night" would suit what you said, as it would include a superlative (and not a comparative).

Is {lú foighne} atá agam istoíche seachas ar maidin.

Istoíche {is lú} foighne agam.

I mo thuairim.

Sampla eile:

quote:

Ní ionadh go rachadh fir le gunnaí i bhfeidhm ar bhuachaill san aois sin. Is lú an t-ionadh nuair is baill armtha den IRA a bhí i gceist.

http://www.intercelt.ie/index.php?page=clippings&id=1212&viewby=date

Breis samplaí anseo:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-39%2CGGLJ%3Aen-GB&q=%22 is+l%C3%BA+an%22&meta=cr%3DcountryIE&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Breischéim seachas sárchéim atá i gceist anseo.

Aonghus, you must be right. I suppose the seachas is analogous to the ná above in thread that Séamus was talking about.

It is. And the comparison can be implied, as it is in the sample I gave.

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Is duine géarshúileach thu, a Shéamuis!

Do chuadhas go Specsavers :)

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Ní hea, ach "I have less patience at night (nó "nights" más Poncán tú!). Nó go litriúl

It is less patience I have at night.

Botún bómánta a dheineas annsoin, ár ndóigh.
Is lugha céille atá agam-sa istoidhche! :)


Go raibh maith agaibh go léir as bhur bhfreagraí. Tá an snáithe seo fíor-spéiseamhail.