I'm looking at this (chapter 24 Mo Sgéal Féin):

agus go deimhin do ghabhas mo bhuidheachas ó chroídhe le
Dia na Glóire a bhreith am' beathaigh orm go bhfeaca
an t-atharughadh aimsire sin

I know "tá breith agam air" means "I can get it, I don't need to hurry for it". But the idiom in the sentence above has "orm" not "agam". I know from the translation the maning is "thankful to God for allowing me to live to see the changing times". But I am still trying to find "breith orm" in the dictionary, or pin down its literal meaning.

Is the idiom I am looking for connected with "breith beo ar dhuine", "to reach someone alive", in Dónall's dictionary?

"Tá an t-am ag breith orainn" is a phrase I have heard said by Máirtín Mac Donncha on RnaG. And it means 'time is catching up on us' or 'we are running out of time' (context was it was a few minutes to go before the end of his radio show).

So now can you see how it fits into your quote?

Yes, sort of. Thanks.

My DIY explanation... Since the verb "beir" in many contexts = "tabhair", then "a bhreith...orm" = "a thug...dom" = "who gave me...". (And I know you know that, David).
Breaking it down, DIY - style:
- "greim a bhreith ar X" = to bring/lay/bear/put/"give" a hold/grip on X
- "barróg a bhreith ar X" = to b/l/b/p/g an embrace on X
- "'amadán' a bhreith(thabhairt) ar X" = to b/l/b/p/g 'amadán' on X
Ttherefore: "am 'beathaigh a bhreith ar X" = to b/l/b/g "am 'beathaigh" on X = To give/grant X "am 'beathaigh"...

As I said above: "a bhreith...orm" = "a thug...dom"/"a bhronn...orm" = "who gave/granted me am 'beathaigh"

Any takers?

(This is a user-very unfriendly site for posting in. It's so much more complicated than IGT, wouldn't you agree, sinéadw and David?)

(Message edited by Hugo on April 25, 2010)

(Message edited by Hugo on April 25, 2010)

Hugo, I think Sineadw was right. Breith+ar can mean managing to do something, sometimes with a temporal aspect.

Ní raibh aon bhreith agam air - I had not way of doing/getting it.

Literally it means "I had no seizing on it".

Tá an t-am ag breith orainn - the time is seizing on us, ie catching us up, ie we are running out of time.

mo bhuidheachas ó chroídhe le Dia na Glóire a bhreith am' beathaigh orm go bhfeaca an t-atharughadh aimsire sin =my heartfelt thank to the God of Glory for its seizing on me while still alive to see..., ie for managing to see, getting to see being in time to see something.

Some of these more colloquial usages don't match up 100% with anything in any dictionary, although some dictionary entries come close.

Hugo you explanation assumes "God" is the subject: God gave the opportunity to me. But my explanation is impersonal.

I was assuming that " bhreith" was an old Munster form of the past tense of the CO's " rug", which happened to be the same in form as the (aspirated) verbal noun. My huge mistake! Munster's a mystery to me.
I'm familiar with the likes of "Tá an t-am ag breith orainn" etc, but there's no direct object there, and I, humbly, think it has no part here. I'm sticking to my guns - changing it of course from "who gave me" to "his giving me "am 'beathaigh".

(Message edited by Hugo on April 25, 2010)

(Message edited by Hugo on April 25, 2010)

quote:

agus go deimhin do ghabhas mo bhuidheachas ó chroídhe le Dia na Glóire a bhreith am' beathaigh orm go bhfeaca an t-atharughadh aimsire sin

and certainly I gave my heartfelt thanks to the Glorious God to have (for having) brought me (caught me) alive so that I saw that time change ( i.e. change in the standard of living / social conditions etc)

am beathaig = i mo bheatha = alive

We offer this toast at family occasions: "Go mbeirimis beo ar an am seo arís."

May we catch this time again - alive / May we all be alive at this time again etc

And the answer "agus murar fearr nára measa!"And if [we are] not better may [we be]not worse!"

Taidhgín, you've given another alternative altogether! I suppose you may be right. But it is difficult to be sure which.

Given that Peadar Ua Laoghaire was a good Catholic, I suspect he does actually mean that God maintained him alive.

Dinneen has under beirim:

With ar; beirim air I lay hold of him, &c.

also

gaċ lá ḃearaiḋ ort every day that will overtake you, i.e. every day of your life.

I think it just means that he is happy he lived to see the day. What of the context? Is he describing an improvement in people's lives?

It is a long time since I read that book. I read it at a sitting. A sunny day on top of a low hill overlooking Sceilg Mhichíl in Uíbh Ráthach. My Heinkel scooter parked down on the road where I stopped on a trip around the "Ring of Kerry". I remember "Mullach na Mangartan" and "July an Chabáiste" but that is about all.

There are other phrases in common use: Ó Muise, chonac an dá lá. (Oh, indeed, I saw the two days) I may be well-off now but I once was poor.

"Chonac" (in Cork Irish) means "chonaiceas" or "chonaic mé" everywhere else. I like it.

Taidhgín, the context is PUL's joy at living to see Michael Davitt's Land League inspire the Irish peasants to unity, enabling them to get rent reductions from the landlords. He explains they were always picked off one by one because they feared to act together, but now they were uniting and achieving success, and PUL himself took part in the Charleville (Ráth Luirc) Land League rallies with other priests on the pulpit encouraging the peasants to take part.

Can I say thanks to everyone for helping me with this on a Sunday evening.

Regarding that toast above I fell into a grammatical trap when writing it: it should be "go mbeirimid beo ar an am seo arís agus murar fearr nára measa."

go mbeirimid = that we may
go mbeirimis = that we used to
go mbéarfaimis = that we might

Níl a bhuíochas ort!

David_w, the same thought is in the third verse of Óro, 'sé do bheatha abhaile.

A bhuí le Dia na bhfeart go bhfeiceam
Muna mbeam beo ina dhéidh ach seachtain
Gráinne Mhaol agus míle gaiscíoch
Ag fógairt fáin ar Ghallaibh

(Thanks to the God of miracles that we may see
Even if we only live for one week afterwards
Gráinne Mhaol and 1,000 heroes
Announcing dispersal on Foreigners)

The native Irish longed for the overthrow of the others.... They knew it would happen if only they could live long enough to see it ...

I (in my unscholarly ignorance) think Gráinne Mhaol should be Gráinne Uí Mháille. I very much doubt if the sobriquet "maol" should have been applied to her at all. Queen Elizabeth 1 may have been almost bald but not our Gráinne. In trying to cope with "máille" when Gráinne visited London I think the English converted it to "mail" and then we took it back again in Irish as "maol" and made up stories to justify it. Naah! Our Gráinne Uí Mháille was a strong Mayo girl agus cúl breá gruaige uirthi. IMHO

Maol doesn't always mean bald. It can mean "dunce, dimwit".

(This is a user-very unfriendly site for posting in. It's so much more complicated than IGT, wouldn't you agree, sinéadw and David?)

What's that supposed to mean Hugo?

I still look at IGT now and again and when I came back to Irish last March it was the first forum I joined, before I even knew about Daltaí.

Then one day there came a certain person on the site, who lied about their location, and made up loads of weird details about living in Galway when they were actually in Australia. Others on the site - moderators- twigged what was going on, and I was one of the people who asked this person were they deceiving people.

Now, Hugo, not a big deal of course, but believe it or not I then got a couple of private messages from the owner of the site, who was going in a really roundabout sly way, trying to find out from me, what moderator had told me what was going on!

You may have noticed I dislike rudeness, unnecessary sarcasm and dishonesty, and slyness- so I stopped using IGT. And being honest with you, I don't feel my Irish is up to a lot of those translations as they are hard to bring from English into Irish. I have since made some comments, which I hope were helpful. I don't get involved in any other discussions there anymore.

So again, Hugo, what was the point you were trying to make? Your attitude stinks and honestly, I don't know why you have it in for me. Maybe because I asked you not to be sarcastic and starting arguments out of nowhere?

GROW UP!

Also, if you must know, there is a particular person on IGT who has been beyond ignorant to a genuinely sound helpful knowledgeable and all round good sort I would think, who themselves have left the site as a result. I even saw sarcastic comments about this person made just last week. Granted it is one person, but it's borderline bullying behaviour and the behaviour of a child.

So... can you see how Daltaí can be perceived as 'friendly and civilised'? Of course, you being Hugo, you have to try ruin it eh?

By the way I am not getting involved in any more of this crap with you. Any more sly remarks about me and I am complaining to owners on this site about you.