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Seamás91
Member Username: Seamás91
Post Number: 221 Registered: 10-2009
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 01:47 pm: |
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This has been bothering me for a while, an focal 'cár' . Now my guess is cár like gur in relation to the copula, mar shampla, cár = cá + is. An bhfuil ceart agam faoin sin? Another thing is the copula before a verb, mar shampla, 'gur thainig'. Why isn't it 'go thainig'? Ta suil mor agamsa bhur gcuid freagrai a leamh. 'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann' -Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)
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Taidhgín
Member Username: Taidhgín
Post Number: 724 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:11 pm: |
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I think it is enough to recognise this "mír briathartha" (verbal particle) as going with the past tense of the verb just like "níor, gur, nár, ar, cár, murar, and sular", but not "má". [I think there may be something about the direct and indirect relative relevant here but I'm no scholar.] Some dialects make "Tháinig" like the really irregular dependent verb forms fuair, faca, deachaigh, dearna, dúirt, agus raibh all of which take go instead of gur go bhfuair etc Some dialects say "go dtáinig" instead of "gur tháinig" in fact some people, like me, sometimes say one and sometimes the other to confuse those who insist on pinning a dialect on me. I also vary my dialect depending on that of the person I'm speaking to. Unless I know them well. Then we just talk. Say things. Exchange info. Cé tá marbh? Cé tháinig as an ospidéal. (There's another one to put with "má") Cé mhéid a bhain an Rialtas as do phóca an tseachtain seo? |
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Seamás91
Member Username: Seamás91
Post Number: 222 Registered: 10-2009
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:41 pm: |
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Nil aon phost agam ar bith, mar sin ni gheobaidh an Rialtas aon rud asam. But what about 'cár'? 'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann' -Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:57 pm: |
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Cár is cá plus the past tense. Where do you do it? Cá ndeineann tú é? Where did you do it? Cár dheinis é? There is a small list of verbs that don't take the -r, eg Cá raibh sé? (you can't write cár raibh sé, even though it is past tense) You wrote: ní gheobhaidh, and I think some dialects may say that, but ní bhfaighidh. I don't mean to be critical, but I appreciate criticism too... Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9795 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:31 pm: |
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cár [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh] béal, grainc, scaimh; cíor fiacla. Agus mé ag nochtadh mo chár, seo an t-eolas ón bhfoclóir cár = cá + ar. |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 578 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:46 pm: |
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The R arises from the old past tense particle ro. It is mostly hidden now, but triggers lenition. ar = an + ro gur = go + ro cár = cá + ro munar = muna + ro níor = ní + ro nár = nach + ro dár = do + a + ro ler = le + a + ro And others ... Also the old Christian Brothers says, “These compounds are used with the past tense of all verbs except the following: ― raibh, was; tug, gave or brought; rug, bore; faca, saw; táinig, came; fuair, found; deachaidh, went; deárna, made or did. “The compounds of ro are used in some places before tug and táinig.” I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 114 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 01:54 am: |
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For a full answer, it would be necessary to mention another use of cár, that with the copula. The -r is either derived from ro, the perfective particle, as seen in "cár dheinis?", or derives from the copula. I don't know why the copula turns into an -r, but there you go. cá+is maith leat = cár maith leat (rud a dhéanamh)? Where do you like to (do whatever)? cá+ba mhaith leat = cár mhaith leat (rud a dhéanamh)? Where would you like to (do whatever)? Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Seamás91
Member Username: Seamás91
Post Number: 224 Registered: 10-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:34 am: |
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Shouldn't Cá+ba=cárbh, as in go+ba=gurbh 'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann' -Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 115 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:39 am: |
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>>>Shouldn't Cá+ba=cárbh, as in go+ba=gurbh No. Only in front of a vowel. And that goes for gurbh too. Present tense: cár, gur etc (cárb, gurb before a vowel) Past/conditional tense: cár+lenition, gur+lenition (cárbh, gurbh before a vowel) Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 295 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:01 am: |
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Davidw- re. your example above (Cá + is maith leat) I think that cá + is = cá So cá maith leat.... = where do you like to I don't think you use cár in present tense at all. |
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Seamás91
Member Username: Seamás91
Post Number: 225 Registered: 10-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:29 am: |
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How is a copula used in the negative sense? Would it be like so: "He said I can't" - "Dúirt sé gur ní féidir liom" 'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann' -Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 116 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:43 am: |
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Sineadw, cár is present tense without lenition, past/conditional with lenition. There are few examples of it, if you check literature, because "where" is rarely followed by the present tense copula. Normally you would say "where WOULD you like to go?" rather than "where DO you like to go?", but cá would be wrong. He said I can't: dúirt sé nár féidir liom. Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Taidhgín
Member Username: Taidhgín
Post Number: 726 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:08 am: |
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He said I can't: dúirt sé nárbh fhéidir liom He says I can't: deir sé nach féidir liom |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 296 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:17 am: |
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Can you give us some examples of "cár" being used in present tense with the copula in the literature? I'd love to find out if it's in the canúintí, but from what I know of CO rules here, it's "cá is = cá" Yea "cá" with "is" would be rare, I agree with that, but if it does come up, I think the "is" is left out and cá works on by itself.. |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:36 am: |
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Taidhgín, you are right. Nach not nár. Can I ask for your view on "sequence of tenses" in Irish. If you start with dúirt sé, do you have to follow with past tense copula (dúírt sé nárbh fhéidir liom), or can you "mix and match" tenses. Dúirt sé nárbh fhéidir liom - this literally means "he said I couldn't (I wouldn't be able to)" not "he said I can't" (past tense "said" and present tense "can't"). I have noticed odd tense usage in PUL's Mo Sgéal Féin, although explanations in grammar books are highly inadequate. I am thinking that tense usage in Irish may be intuitive to speakers of Irish English, and so the topic is only lightly covered in grammar books. Can you say: dúirt sé nach féidir liom ?? I know Latin had a very detailed "sequence of tenses" - maybe Irish does? Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 118 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:46 am: |
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Sineadw, if you know that the CO has cá and not cá in the present tense, I take your word for it. I looked it up in Lars' Nualeargais site, and found conflicting passages. http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/sonstig.htm :says it is cá http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul3.htm :says it is cár http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul5.htm : says it is cár Am I misreading Lars' site (all this stuff about the indirect relative after cá confuses the issue for me)? Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 299 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:56 am: |
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I see what you mean- it's hardly a typo as he has cár associated with the present tense in two of the 3 pages there. It doesn't sound right in present tense though. He doesn't have any examples with cár in present tense, but he does for cárb. Until I can find out if it's a dialect thing, I think I'll stick with cá. Also, I amn't 100% sure it is CO but I'll check it up to confirm- it's just what I remember from school and from what I've been exposed to since that makes cár odd in present tense copula anyway.. |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 300 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 10:03 am: |
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Christian Brothers give cá and cárb for present tense copula. The grammar book by Nollaig Mac Congail gives cár and cárb. Don't see it in Réchúrsa Gramadaí. |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 10:05 am: |
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Sineadw, I found this in an electronic file of mine, but it is not a book I have read and I don't know the context: Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a chaitín ó! It is from Smaointe fáin an tsuarthamáin, 1938, a translation of Jerome K Jerome's The Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow by Eibhlín Bean Uí Churraoin from the Waterford Gaeltacht. Cár mó seems present tense (otherwise cár mhó?), but I am not sure of the exact meaning here. Does "cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é" mean "it is SO none of your business!"??? I can't tell if this quotation is relevant to our discussion yet, until I can work out what the sentence means... Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 301 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 01:40 pm: |
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Well I found this in the Christian Bros Grammar. 2nd part is the relevant part really but needs first part as background. It's in same vein as 'Cár mó... a chaitín ó' i.e. 'múnla ceiste reitriciúla'. Tá a lán abairtí oibiachtúla ann a fhreagraíonn do na cinn atá in 16.25-26 agus a bhfuil 'do' in ionad 'le' iontu. Bheadh na habairtí sin oibiachtúil gan 'do'; ní chuireann 'do' isteach ar an oibiachtúlacht: is maith duit é (= déanann sé maitheas duit cibé faoi do bharúil féin ina thaobh); is cuma duit [é] (ní bhaineann sé leat; ná buair thú féin faoi); ní foláir di dul abhaile (caithfidh sí dul; níl aon rogha aici); ní mór di éirí as obair feasta (caithfidh sí...); ní beag duit é (tá do sháith agat); ní miste duit dul abhaile. Is féidir múnla ceiste reitriciúla a chur ar chuid de na habairtí sin thuas lena dtreisiú: cá beag duit é? cá mór daoibh imeacht? cá fearr duit bheith ag caint? cár mhiste duit é? Do you have the quote going before it? I think your translation is right but tense, that is the question (Message edited by sineadw on April 23, 2010) |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:43 pm: |
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This is the full quote: Creid uaim é a choileáinín uasail, gur dall atáir, dall i gcomparáid linn-na lucht na clisteachta, linn-na tá oilte ar phoilitidheacht agus ar fheallsamhnacht, ar gach aon rud, dá ndéarfainn é, mara n-áirmhíghtear sinn féin, ár dteacht, ár dtriall agus gach a bhfuil á shuidheamh taobh amuigh den domhan suarach so gan trácht ar urmhór a bhfuil ann. Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a chaitín ó! Ná déineadh sé aon chaduaic díbh, is móide ár meas oraibh bhúr ndaille. Taitnigheann an dallacán le cách. Níl dada is mó a chuireann searbhas ar fhear 'ná bean léigheanta, agus maidir leis an bhean ní háil léi an fear ná faigheadh sí "an t-éarla so agam-sa" do thabhairt mar ainm cheana air. Is breágh linn uile teagmháil le daoine ná fuil chómh oilte linn féin. Is móide ár meas ortha a suaraidheacht. Ní fuláir nó is cruaidh an saoghal é ag daoine cliste. Ní háil le neach iad. Is iad fuath na coitcheanntachta iad agus dar ndóigh in a gcúrsaí féin ní lugha ortha an nimh 'ná a chéile. Acht cia bheadh dhá chrádh féin leo mar lucht léighinn? Is iad na fánairí iad, agus nach cuma dhúinn cia aca sona nó dona dhóibh. Chómh fada agus bheidh na dallacáin go seascair sásta ní bheidh baoghal ar an saoghal. Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 04:04 pm: |
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OK, the original English text of this Irish passage is as follows ( http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_cats_and_dogs): Yes, poor doggie, you are very stupid, very stupid indeed, compared with us clever men, who understand all about politics and philosophy, and who know everything, in short, except what we are and where we came from and whither we are going, and what everything outside this tiny world and most things in it are. Never mind, though, pussy and doggie, we like you both all the better for your being stupid. We all like stupid things. Men can’t bear clever women, and a woman’s ideal man is some one she can call a “dear old stupid.” It is so pleasant to come across people more stupid than ourselves. We love them at once for being so. The world must be rather a rough place for clever people. Ordinary folk dislike them, and as for themselves, they hate each other most cordially. But there, the clever people are such a very insignificant minority that it really doesn’t much matter if they are unhappy. So long as the foolish people can be made comfortable the world, as a whole, will get on tolerably well. So, "Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a chaitín ó!" means "Never mind, though, pussy and doggie". Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 304 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 04:44 pm: |
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Well she's talking to the dog and cat, so I'm happy that I understand why Cár is here. Okay so. It seems 'cár' is in the dialects in the present copula, with Christian Brothers sticking with 'cá' for this. Have you seen anything in CO about it? |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 01:12 pm: |
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>>Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a chaitín ó!" means "Never mind, though, pussy and doggie". Sineadw, this is not 100% clear to me yet. In "Cá beag duit?" cá is used as a rhetorical device, "how come that's not enough for you?" It would seem it is also used in a similar rhetorical way in cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, but I can't fully understand it. Cá - how come? Is mó go - ?? (exact meaning unclear to me) Ba chuma dhíbh é - it would make no difference to you Putting these together: how come it would so greatly make NO difference to you (the opposite of what the translation shows it to mean) Sineadw if you can help me to understand it, I would be grateful. As for cár and cá - well this is the only example of cár with the present-tense copula I found. What about cá beag duit? Is that cá + is beag duit? In that case that phrase also contains a (deleted) copula. Alternatively, you could just parse that as an adjective "beag", with no copula (and that is the approach that Ó Dónall's dictionary under cá seems to take). Possibly, when followed by an adjective, you would just have cá: cá beag duit? But when that adjective itself governs a whole clause, its copular function becomes clearer, and so you would need to say: cár beag duit go... Just an idea. Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 127 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 01:13 pm: |
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Sineadw, it is becoming clear that, although many Irish people feel they learned little Irish at school that they can recall, it does give a good grounding to those who want to learn Irish in later life. You are given something to build on, and so have more intuitiveness in your learning than a learner based abroad! Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 309 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:05 pm: |
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Re. the translation of the cár mó sentence.. 'Why would (all that: é) really matter to you' is how I'd translate it. 'Is mó' going to 'cár mó' 'is mó..': 'it greatly' ...(doesn't matter to you) 'cár mó gur..' 'why would' or 'sure how would' that really matter to you So cá mó is not a 'how come?' question, it's a rhetorical statement 'sure how would'.. |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 310 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:09 pm: |
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Quote: "Possibly, when followed by an adjective, you would just have cá: cá beag duit? But when that adjective itself governs a whole clause, its copular function becomes clearer, and so you would need to say: cár beag duit go..." Yeah that looks possible, but if that's the case why didn't the Christian Brothers cover it in their Grammar? |
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 311 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:22 pm: |
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Can this be right? The Caighdeán does not have any mention of "cár" in present or even past tense of copula! So what does that say? Could it be that "cá" was more often used in the dialects than was "cár" in present copula, so they stuck with that in CO (in the present copula) and then kept cá also in past tense for simplification, which the CB thought overly simplified so they kept with cá in present copula and didn't simplify for past copula and so kept cár there?? I SO hope they explain this better in the revised version of the Caighdeán and I think they will. Éamon Ó Cuiv said that one of the benefits of the revision would be for learners where there was little explanation of some parts of the grammar! |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 133 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 09:37 pm: |
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>>>'cár mó gur..' 'why would' or 'sure how would' that really matter to you Sineadw, I don't want to be tenacious and prolong the discussion, but "is cuma dom" means "it doesn't matter to me", not "it matters to me". So that's my problem: does "cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é" mean what you said ("why would that really matter to you?") or the opposite: why would that really NOT matter to you? It seems it means the latter to me: "why are you so thoroughly unphased about it?" That makes sense in the context of talking about how a dog takes no interest in certain things a human does. I hope I haven't unchilled your chilled-out weekend! Thinking about cár mó has been a teaser for me too! Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 315 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 09:15 am: |
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Is cuma do...: it doesn't matter to... Is mó is cuma do..: It really doesn't matter to .. Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é: Sure how would it really matter to you/what would it matter to you = it doesn't matter to you Maybe look at the "cár" as being "cá" = "what" in this context |
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David_w
Member Username: David_w
Post Number: 136 Registered: 03-2010
| Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 09:29 am: |
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OK I've got - basically it's just rhetorical. Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.
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