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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (March-April) » Archive through April 30, 2010 » Ceist Faoin gCupla Copula « Previous Next »

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 221
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This has been bothering me for a while, an focal 'cár' .
Now my guess is cár like gur in relation to the copula, mar shampla, cár = cá + is. An bhfuil ceart agam faoin sin?

Another thing is the copula before a verb, mar shampla, 'gur thainig'. Why isn't it 'go thainig'?

Ta suil mor agamsa bhur gcuid freagrai a leamh.

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 724
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think it is enough to recognise this "mír briathartha" (verbal particle) as going with the past tense of the verb just like "níor, gur, nár, ar, cár, murar, and sular", but not "má". [I think there may be something about the direct and indirect relative relevant here but I'm no scholar.]

Some dialects make "Tháinig" like the really irregular dependent verb forms fuair, faca, deachaigh, dearna, dúirt, agus raibh all of which take go instead of gur go bhfuair etc Some dialects say "go dtáinig" instead of "gur tháinig" in fact some people, like me, sometimes say one and sometimes the other to confuse those who insist on pinning a dialect on me. I also vary my dialect depending on that of the person I'm speaking to. Unless I know them well. Then we just talk. Say things. Exchange info. Cé tá marbh? Cé tháinig as an ospidéal. (There's another one to put with "má") Cé mhéid a bhain an Rialtas as do phóca an tseachtain seo?

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 222
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nil aon phost agam ar bith, mar sin ni gheobaidh an Rialtas aon rud asam.
But what about 'cár'?

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 02:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cár is cá plus the past tense.

Where do you do it? Cá ndeineann tú é?
Where did you do it? Cár dheinis é?

There is a small list of verbs that don't take the -r, eg Cá raibh sé? (you can't write cár raibh sé, even though it is past tense)

You wrote: ní gheobhaidh, and I think some dialects may say that, but ní bhfaighidh. I don't mean to be critical, but I appreciate criticism too...

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9795
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

cár [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
béal, grainc, scaimh; cíor fiacla.



Agus mé ag nochtadh mo chár, seo an t-eolas ón bhfoclóir

cár
= cá + ar.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 578
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The R arises from the old past tense particle ro. It is mostly hidden now, but triggers lenition.

ar = an + ro
gur = go + ro
cár = cá + ro
munar = muna + ro
níor = ní + ro
nár = nach + ro
dár = do + a + ro
ler = le + a + ro

And others ...

Also the old Christian Brothers says, “These compounds are used with the past tense of all verbs except the following: ― raibh, was; tug, gave or brought; rug, bore; faca, saw; táinig, came; fuair, found; deachaidh, went; deárna, made or did.

“The compounds of ro are used in some places before tug and táinig.”

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 114
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 01:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For a full answer, it would be necessary to mention another use of cár, that with the copula. The -r is either derived from ro, the perfective particle, as seen in "cár dheinis?", or derives from the copula. I don't know why the copula turns into an -r, but there you go.

cá+is maith leat = cár maith leat (rud a dhéanamh)? Where do you like to (do whatever)?

cá+ba mhaith leat = cár mhaith leat (rud a dhéanamh)? Where would you like to (do whatever)?

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 224
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Shouldn't Cá+ba=cárbh, as in go+ba=gurbh

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>>Shouldn't Cá+ba=cárbh, as in go+ba=gurbh

No. Only in front of a vowel. And that goes for gurbh too.

Present tense: cár, gur etc (cárb, gurb before a vowel)

Past/conditional tense: cár+lenition, gur+lenition (cárbh, gurbh before a vowel)

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 295
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Davidw- re. your example above (Cá + is maith leat)

I think that cá + is = cá

So cá maith leat.... = where do you like to

I don't think you use cár in present tense at all.

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 225
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How is a copula used in the negative sense?
Would it be like so:
"He said I can't" - "Dúirt sé gur ní féidir liom"

'mar ná beidh ár leithidí arís ann'
-Tomás O'Croitháin (An t-Oiléanach)

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 07:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sineadw, cár is present tense without lenition, past/conditional with lenition. There are few examples of it, if you check literature, because "where" is rarely followed by the present tense copula. Normally you would say "where WOULD you like to go?" rather than "where DO you like to go?", but cá would be wrong.


He said I can't: dúirt sé nár féidir liom.

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 726
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

He said I can't: dúirt sé nárbh fhéidir liom
He says I can't: deir sé nach féidir liom

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 296
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can you give us some examples of "cár" being used in present tense with the copula in the literature? I'd love to find out if it's in the canúintí, but from what I know of CO rules here, it's "cá is = cá"

Yea "cá" with "is" would be rare, I agree with that, but if it does come up, I think the "is" is left out and cá works on by itself..

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Taidhgín, you are right. Nach not nár.

Can I ask for your view on "sequence of tenses" in Irish. If you start with dúirt sé, do you have to follow with past tense copula (dúírt sé nárbh fhéidir liom), or can you "mix and match" tenses.

Dúirt sé nárbh fhéidir liom - this literally means "he said I couldn't (I wouldn't be able to)" not "he said I can't" (past tense "said" and present tense "can't").

I have noticed odd tense usage in PUL's Mo Sgéal Féin, although explanations in grammar books are highly inadequate. I am thinking that tense usage in Irish may be intuitive to speakers of Irish English, and so the topic is only lightly covered in grammar books.

Can you say: dúirt sé nach féidir liom ?? I know Latin had a very detailed "sequence of tenses" - maybe Irish does?

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 118
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sineadw, if you know that the CO has cá and not cá in the present tense, I take your word for it. I looked it up in Lars' Nualeargais site, and found conflicting passages.

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/sonstig.htm :says it is cá
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul3.htm :says it is cár
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul5.htm : says it is cár

Am I misreading Lars' site (all this stuff about the indirect relative after cá confuses the issue for me)?

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 299
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 09:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I see what you mean- it's hardly a typo as he has cár associated with the present tense in two of the 3 pages there.

It doesn't sound right in present tense though.
He doesn't have any examples with cár in present tense, but he does for cárb.

Until I can find out if it's a dialect thing, I think I'll stick with cá.

Also, I amn't 100% sure it is CO but I'll check it up to confirm- it's just what I remember from school and from what I've been exposed to since that makes cár odd in present tense copula anyway..

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 300
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 10:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Christian Brothers give cá and cárb for present tense copula.
The grammar book by Nollaig Mac Congail gives cár and cárb.
Don't see it in Réchúrsa Gramadaí.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 119
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 10:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sineadw, I found this in an electronic file of mine, but it is not a book I have read and I don't know the context:

Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a chaitín ó!

It is from Smaointe fáin an tsuarthamáin, 1938, a translation of Jerome K Jerome's The Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow by Eibhlín Bean Uí Churraoin from the Waterford Gaeltacht.

Cár mó seems present tense (otherwise cár mhó?), but I am not sure of the exact meaning here. Does "cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é" mean "it is SO none of your business!"???

I can't tell if this quotation is relevant to our discussion yet, until I can work out what the sentence means...

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 301
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 01:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well I found this in the Christian Bros Grammar. 2nd part is the relevant part really but needs first part as background. It's in same vein as 'Cár mó... a chaitín ó' i.e. 'múnla ceiste reitriciúla'.

Tá a lán abairtí oibiachtúla ann a fhreagraíonn do na cinn atá in 16.25-26 agus a bhfuil
'do' in ionad 'le' iontu. Bheadh na habairtí sin oibiachtúil gan 'do'; ní chuireann 'do' isteach ar an
oibiachtúlacht: is maith duit é (= déanann sé maitheas duit cibé faoi do bharúil féin ina thaobh); is cuma duit [é] (ní bhaineann sé leat; ná buair thú féin faoi); ní foláir di dul abhaile (caithfidh sí dul; níl aon rogha aici); ní mór di éirí as obair feasta (caithfidh sí...); ní beag
duit é (tá do sháith agat); ní miste duit dul abhaile.

Is féidir múnla ceiste reitriciúla a chur ar chuid de na habairtí sin thuas lena dtreisiú: cá beag
duit é? cá mór daoibh imeacht? cá fearr duit bheith ag caint? cár mhiste duit é?

Do you have the quote going before it? I think your translation is right but tense, that is the question

(Message edited by sineadw on April 23, 2010)

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is the full quote:

Creid uaim é a choileáinín uasail, gur dall
atáir, dall i gcomparáid linn-na lucht na
clisteachta, linn-na tá oilte ar phoilitidheacht
agus ar fheallsamhnacht, ar gach aon rud, dá
ndéarfainn é, mara n-áirmhíghtear sinn féin,
ár dteacht, ár dtriall agus gach a bhfuil á
shuidheamh taobh amuigh den domhan suarach so gan
trácht ar urmhór a bhfuil ann.

Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a
chaitín ó! Ná déineadh sé aon chaduaic díbh, is
móide ár meas oraibh bhúr ndaille. Taitnigheann
an dallacán le cách. Níl dada is mó a chuireann
searbhas ar fhear 'ná bean léigheanta, agus
maidir leis an bhean ní háil léi an fear ná
faigheadh sí "an t-éarla so agam-sa" do
thabhairt mar ainm cheana air. Is breágh linn
uile teagmháil le daoine ná fuil chómh oilte linn
féin. Is móide ár meas ortha a suaraidheacht.
Ní fuláir nó is cruaidh an saoghal é ag daoine
cliste. Ní háil le neach iad. Is iad fuath na
coitcheanntachta iad agus dar ndóigh in a
gcúrsaí féin ní lugha ortha an nimh 'ná a chéile.
Acht cia bheadh dhá chrádh féin leo mar lucht
léighinn? Is iad na fánairí iad, agus nach cuma
dhúinn cia aca sona nó dona dhóibh. Chómh fada
agus bheidh na dallacáin go seascair sásta ní
bheidh baoghal ar an saoghal.

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, the original English text of this Irish passage is as follows (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_cats_and_dogs):

Yes, poor doggie, you are very stupid, very stupid indeed, compared with us clever men, who understand all about politics and philosophy, and who know everything, in short, except what we are and where we came from and whither we are going, and what everything outside this tiny world and most things in it are.

Never mind, though, pussy and doggie, we like you both all the better for your being stupid. We all like stupid things. Men can’t bear clever women, and a woman’s ideal man is some one she can call a “dear old stupid.” It is so pleasant to come across people more stupid than ourselves. We love them at once for being so. The world must be rather a rough place for clever people. Ordinary folk dislike them, and as for themselves, they hate each other most cordially.

But there, the clever people are such a very insignificant minority that it really doesn’t much matter if they are unhappy. So long as the foolish people can be made comfortable the world, as a whole, will get on tolerably well.

So, "Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a
chaitín ó!" means "Never mind, though, pussy and doggie".

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 304
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well she's talking to the dog and cat, so I'm happy that I understand why Cár is here.

Okay so. It seems 'cár' is in the dialects in the present copula, with Christian Brothers sticking with 'cá' for this.

Have you seen anything in CO about it?

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 126
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 01:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, a ghadhairín ó, agus a
chaitín ó!" means "Never mind, though, pussy and doggie".

Sineadw, this is not 100% clear to me yet. In "Cá beag duit?" cá is used as a rhetorical device, "how come that's not enough for you?" It would seem it is also used in a similar rhetorical way in cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é, but I can't fully understand it.

Cá - how come?

Is mó go - ?? (exact meaning unclear to me)

Ba chuma dhíbh é - it would make no difference to you

Putting these together: how come it would so greatly make NO difference to you (the opposite of what the translation shows it to mean)

Sineadw if you can help me to understand it, I would be grateful.

As for cár and cá - well this is the only example of cár with the present-tense copula I found. What about cá beag duit? Is that cá + is beag duit? In that case that phrase also contains a (deleted) copula. Alternatively, you could just parse that as an adjective "beag", with no copula (and that is the approach that Ó Dónall's dictionary under cá seems to take).

Possibly, when followed by an adjective, you would just have cá: cá beag duit? But when that adjective itself governs a whole clause, its copular function becomes clearer, and so you would need to say: cár beag duit go...

Just an idea.

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 01:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sineadw, it is becoming clear that, although many Irish people feel they learned little Irish at school that they can recall, it does give a good grounding to those who want to learn Irish in later life. You are given something to build on, and so have more intuitiveness in your learning than a learner based abroad!

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 309
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re. the translation of the cár mó sentence..


'Why would (all that: é) really matter to you' is how I'd translate it. 'Is mó' going to 'cár mó'
'is mó..': 'it greatly' ...(doesn't matter to you)
'cár mó gur..' 'why would' or 'sure how would' that really matter to you

So cá mó is not a 'how come?' question, it's a rhetorical statement 'sure how would'..

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 310
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Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Quote: "Possibly, when followed by an adjective, you would just have cá: cá beag duit? But when that adjective itself governs a whole clause, its copular function becomes clearer, and so you would need to say: cár beag duit go..."

Yeah that looks possible, but if that's the case why didn't the Christian Brothers cover it in their Grammar?

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Sineadw
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Post Number: 311
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Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 02:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can this be right? The Caighdeán does not have any mention of "cár" in present or even past tense of copula!

So what does that say? Could it be that "cá" was more often used in the dialects than was "cár" in present copula, so they stuck with that in CO (in the present copula) and then kept cá also in past tense for simplification, which the CB thought overly simplified so they kept with cá in present copula and didn't simplify for past copula and so kept cár there??

I SO hope they explain this better in the revised version of the Caighdeán and I think they will. Éamon Ó Cuiv said that one of the benefits of the revision would be for learners where there was little explanation of some parts of the grammar!

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 133
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Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 09:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>>'cár mó gur..' 'why would' or 'sure how would' that really matter to you

Sineadw, I don't want to be tenacious and prolong the discussion, but "is cuma dom" means "it doesn't matter to me", not "it matters to me". So that's my problem: does "cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é" mean what you said ("why would that really matter to you?") or the opposite: why would that really NOT matter to you?

It seems it means the latter to me: "why are you so thoroughly unphased about it?" That makes sense in the context of talking about how a dog takes no interest in certain things a human does.

I hope I haven't unchilled your chilled-out weekend! Thinking about cár mó has been a teaser for me too!

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 315
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 09:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is cuma do...: it doesn't matter to...
Is mó is cuma do..: It really doesn't matter to ..
Cár mó gur chuma dhíbh é: Sure how would it really matter to you/what would it matter to you = it doesn't matter to you

Maybe look at the "cár" as being "cá" = "what" in this context

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 136
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 09:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK I've got - basically it's just rhetorical.

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.



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