bíonn na consain j, k, x, i gceist i bhfocail iasachta áirithe ón mBéarla.
nuair a chuirtear réamhfhocal simplí agus forainm le chéile, bíonn forainm réamhfhocladh i gceist.

can anyone help with the meaning of "i gceist" in these two examples?
thanks in advance.

In kind of means "at issue", "relating to the topic at hand", or "under discussion or in dispute". From these various other meanings can be drawn out like "entail" or "concerned" etc.

Here are my rough translations:

bíonn na consain j, k, x, i gceist i bhfocail iasachta áirithe ón mBéarla.

the consonants j, k, x, are included in certain loans words from English.

nuair a chuirtear réamhfhocal simplí agus forainm le chéile, bíonn forainm réamhfhocladh i gceist.

when one places a simple preposition and a pronoun together, the prepositional pronoun results.

Someone else probably can give a more accurate understand of i gceist ("in question").

I'd have translated the first one as "come into play"

And the second rather as "it is"

Ó Dónaill has quite a long article on ceist, and most of it is flavours of "i gceist"

"Tá X i gceist" is a vague catch-all device for saying that "X" exists, that "X" is present on the scene. And if you ask me, I think this device is being used way to much. It sometimes stands in the way of making your meaning clear, precisely because it is too vague.

Cad tá i gceist agat?

Haha. But that's a different construction: "tá X i gceist ag Y [le Z]". This one isn't vague, I think. It means "Y means (is trying to say) X [by Z]".

Cad atá i gceist agat?
What do you mean?

Cad atá i gceist agat leis sin?
What do you mean by that?

Is é atá i gceist agam leis sin ná...
What I mean by that is...

Another one is "tá X i gceist le Y" = "X is associated with Y", "Y involves X". This one's pretty vague too but I don't think it's being overused as much.

Tá go leor deacrachtaí i gceist leis sin.
Quite a few difficulties are associated with that.

It's just the bare one, the one without a follow-on preposition, that I have an issue with! ;-)

Mbm, you say "cad atá" - and I know this is the form prescribed by the government - but what is the prevalence of this form in the Gaeltacht? I know it is "cad tá" in Cork, and a search on Tobar na Gaedhilge showed Kerry and Donegal authors say "cad tá" too. I tried the Connacht authors in TnG, but couldn't find a cad+tá combination. I also tried ceard+tá and had no luck. What does Ó Siadhail say on this subject? Until I get examples from one of the Gaeltachtaí, I am regarding "cad atá" as a mistake.

No form is prescribed by the government. The Official Standard is voluntary and I have chosen to follow it.

And that is all I have to add to the dialects-versus-standard debate! ;-)

Mbm, I would never try to inflict my study choices on you. If you wish to say Cad atá, or if you wish to say Cad zzyy11htá or even Cad qqwmprstá, I will support you in that. After all, it is your hobby and no one can tell you what to do in your spare time!

Canathaobh ná fuil an t-aistriugh' is léire "in question" lúaighte ag éinne?

"An lá atá i gceist", the day in question...?

Obvious, no?

Yes - the day in question. But it is not always possible to so translate it. Cad tá i gceist agat? cannot be translated with the word "question" in English.

David,
I would only pose this reality to you. Michal is a fluent speaker, and you are not. I am not trying to disparage you, but there is a lot to be said for experiential knowledge. I realize myself that only so much can be learned from books, and my understanding of "natural" Irish widens each day. Perhaps the people he speaks with in Irish each day would be better placed to correct his "a"?

Michal is a fluent speaker of a made-up form of Irish - if he has experiential knowledge of Gaeltacht Irish, I would like to learn from that. If he has experiential knowledge of CO Irish as spoken by English native speakers in the Galltacht, I would not regard that as something I could learn from (I am choosing my words carefully).

I did not state that "cad atá" is not used in the Gaeltacht - rather, I asked which Gaeltacht it was used in. If he has the experiential knowledge of the native dialects, then he will know which Gaeltacht dialect says "cad atá" - it was a question. The people he speaks Irish with every day - are they native speakers of Gaeltacht Irish or not? The question cannot be swept away.

I don't think Michal has anything to teach me - not unless he has detailed knowledge of a Gaeltacht dialect. I am choosing my words carefully so as not to offend him, but I simply do not place any value on a form of Irish that is not traditional (see Feargal Ó Béarra's article on late traditional Modern Irish versus the CO).

This isn't really something that I can be browbeaten into submission on - I know enough to know what I know - and I chose my words carefully in saying that I know Cork Irish uses "cad tá" and "from my consultation of Tobar na Gaedhilge the Kerry and Donegal authors there did too". I did not overstate my knowledge - for example, I did not even claim that Donegal Irish in general says "cad tá" - as I don't know whether that is true or not - all I said was that the authors in the TnG said that. I was very carefully not to claim more knowledge on this point than I can.

Look! I am not living in Ireland, and I have been to Ireland once and I was there for about 10 days. But when someone is right on a point they are right regardless of any other considerations. I remember a man of Caribbean origin I knew at university - he told me his family were from Jamaica. As we walked past a travel agent's, we saw a sign for a holiday in Barbados, and he said "that's where my family are from". I told him, "actually Barbados and Jamaica are different countries". He flatly denied that was so. Seanw, you could say "he must know, as he is from there, so don't contradict". But clearly, a person is right on what he is right on, regardless of any other limitations to his knowledge.

Now, about that cad atá: MBM - you have the experiential knowledge, so, come on then, which Gaeltacht dialect is it that says "cad atá"? The answer may be Galway - for all I know - but do you in fact know either?

quote:

are they native speakers of Gaeltacht Irish or not? The question cannot be swept away.

I don't know, but I'm sure you know that native Gaeltacht speakers have been leaving the Gaeltacht for years. In Dublin, a speaker can easily mesh with people from various backgrounds and dialects. He may read from various backgrounds and dialects also. What to do when mommy's from Kerry and daddy's from Donegal?! That's been going for years now, and those hard and fast lines are not as prominent in the streets as they are in old books. Perhaps that is the most interesting aspect of Irish in Dublin.

(Funny enough, also, I don't think many Gaeltacht speakers can answer your question. They could just tell you whether it sounds right or not.)

quote:

I don't think Michal has anything to teach me - not unless he has detailed knowledge of a Gaeltacht dialect. I am choosing my words carefully so as not to offend him

I don't know if he placed himself in the position of a teacher to you. But I always think of a student being in a position of humble subjection, only correcting the teacher in certain cases in a certain manner. Maybe I'm too "tradition" in that sense. Maybe that's the hardest part of being a real student to someone else.

quote:

clearly, a person is right on what he is right on, regardless of any other limitations to his knowledge.

I'm am not questioning your ability to apprehend the truth of a situation, but the way you are going about apprehending it. There is ever a debate between book knowledge and experiential knowledge. I'm just not willing to consign Bla Cliath speakers to second class status. If you're fluent, you're fluent. And we can all agree we have more to learn.

Could someone please post a link to the article by Feargal Ó Béarra that was mentioned?

Seanw, you are right in all you say. Apart from this: "Funny enough, also, I don't think many Gaeltacht speakers can answer your question." Actually, I think EVERY SINGLE Gaeltacht speaker could say whether he said "cad tá" or "cad atá".

>>>But I always think of a student being in a position of humble subjection, only correcting the teacher in certain cases in a certain manner.

Seanw, Mbm has never claimed to be "my teacher". And I would never engage him to teach me Gaeltacht Irish - at least, not without some evidence that he had a good knowledge of it.

>>>I'm just not willing to consign Bla Cliath speakers to second class status. If you're fluent, you're fluent.

Well if the BÁC speakers speak late traditional modern Irish, as defined by Feargal Ó Béarra, I see your point. I am afraid I saw those dreadful No Béarla videos of Manchán, and my instant reaction was to say "Manchán, you don't have Irish". I feel sure that PUL would have agreed with me (na daoine is lúgha ciall i n-Éireann na daoine gan Bhéarla gan Ghaoluinn). PUL thought that people who spoke Hiberno-Irish were "gan Bhéarla" and people with bad Irish were "gan Ghaoluinn".

Look! I simply refuse to be told that I MUST accept the CO. You can argue, and argue, and argue about it - and in the end you will be successful in getting my username barred again. I am more than happy to let other people including Mbm study what they like - but here is the more controversial bit - I expect them to afford that courtesy to me. And I have yet to meet ANYONE on any of Irish-language websites who is prepared to accept the fact that someone is studying Cork Irish. There is a total absence of any "live and let live" attitude.

The more you keep on trying to force me to accept the CO - I don't and I won't - the more I will be inclined to just be blunt about it. I don't accept the CO as even really being Irish at all. Look, there is the iGaeilge blog written by a native speaker in the Cork Gaeltacht - I can't learn a thing from it, because it is not written in traditional Irish. To my mind, iGaeilge is just worthless - a waste of state money. If I were leader in Ireland, I would pulp all books written in standard Irish. And I would like to see Northern Ireland demand the cessation of standard Irish as part of any future agreement on Irish unity.

Wouldn't it be so much better to accept that there is some variation of opinion on the CO/dialects question, and that someone who doesn't accept the CO is part of a legitimate spectrum of opinion? You know who those who opppose and approve of women priests in the Church of England are regarded as church members in good standing - neither side is so far allowed to crush the others - they must all accept that the question is debated in the church. Well, I would like some variation - some diversity of opinion to be accepted on the CO. Honestly, if Mbm has replied and said "I am not aware of its existence in any Gaeltacht, but I don't care about that", I would instantly have accepted that his choices were being determined according to different criteria, and that diversity of opinion (the one form of diversity that sends the left crazy) ought to be allowed.

Please let me study Cork Irish and please let me think what I like of the CO. Tolerance all round - simples!

Wee falorie man, Ramón, you can find the article by Feargal at http://books.google.ie/books?id=VgBtaDT-evYC&lpg=PA260&ots=7XS4RssAfW&dq=%22Late %20Modern%20Irish%20and%20the%20Dynamics%20of%20Language%20Change%20and%20Langua ge%20Death%22&pg=PA260#v=onepage&q=%22Late%20Modern%20Irish%20and%20the%20Dynami cs%20of%20Language%20Change%20and%20Language%20Death%22&f=false

David,
I shall give you this feedback and move on, since I believe it will serve you well. You do not take crticism well. You answer back in such a way as to indicate that you did not understand the criticism completely. You often shift the debate. You make offensive gestures and then immediately go into a defensive position as though you've been victimized, whereas you are simply being countered, as is natural in debates and forum situations. You also experience complete freedom, but accuse others of stifling that freedom when you are stiling theres, according to your rule. Your contributions on Cork Irish are great, and I think many people are enjoying them and benefitting from them.

No, Seanw. You're trying to blame me for your offensiveness. I asked a perfectly reasonable question of Mbm. Did he know which Gaeltacht used the form he used? He could say "yes, I do, it is XYZ" or "no - but I don't think it matters". You have tried to make it a question of whether I am fluent in Irish or not - although my question was reasonable all along, and would be reasonable if put by someone who didn't have one word of Irish.

I have shown in countless threads that I enjoy debate on subjects and am more than happy to acknowledge when I am wrong. You can see that in quite a few threads where I have discussed things with Sineadw. But you seem to think here that you can convert a question about the CO into a personal attack on me, and then somehow blame me for "insufficiently understanding". I understand only too well that ANY dissent from the CO is viewed as unacceptable by you.

Well, what situation does that leave me in then? I do take criticism well when it is intelligently argued.

quote:

Now, about that cad atá: MBM - you have the experiential knowledge, so, come on then, which Gaeltacht dialect is it that says "cad atá"?

I don't know, probably none. I never said I say it like that, anyway. I write it like that. In spoken language I probably say something like /c@'ta:/.

As I said earlier, I (try to) follow the Official Standard. The Official Standard is a standard for the written language. It has nothing to do with how the forms are pronounced.

quote:

To my mind, iGaeilge is just worthless - a waste of state money.

I was under the impression that iGaeilge (http://igaeilge.wordpress.com/) is just some guy's blog, certainly not funded by state money.

Mbm, you must be right. I just assumed it was an Údarás project. Yes that was a major booboo of mine.

Even more pathetic if someone in the Gaeltacht is writing in Standard Irish in his free time.

"Pathetic"?

(So much for live and let live.)

Well, Abigail, it is MUSKERRY after all. It is very close to where Peadar Ua Laoghaire came from - it is a part of Ireland that maintained a literary heritage all the way through- the Dámhsgoil is still extant. The area has such an illustrious history in terms of literature that is not matched by any other area in Ireland. While I was there, people were keen to tell me that the poets of other parts of Ireland were illiterate, whereas theirs weren't. Standard Irish is not part of Cúil Aodha's heritage.

I made it clear that I do not care what forms a Czech person living in Ireland is using - it is not his heritage anyway. But I do think the Irish government has abused its authority by introducing the CO, and that the CO is not a legitimate form of Irish. I don't expect anyone in Ireland (whether native speakers or not; whether in the Gaeltacht or not) to give a damn what I think about Irish; but, similarly, I don't give a damn what CO-users think of my views either (whether native speakers or not; whether in the Gaeltacht or not). I would like the deontas to be redesigned to give the grant ONLY to speakers of traditional Irish.

Don't forget, Abigail, I had my fingers burned recently by buying books by Seán Ó Mulláin, only to find that, although apparently the son of a famous person from the Muskerry Gaeltacht, he had sold out to the Caighdeán.

(Message edited by david_w on April 30, 2010)

By the way, if you look at http://igaeilge.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/sinn-fein-ar-chul-na-h-imeartha-i-gclui che-na-gaeilge/ - yes he wrote "cad atá". I have no idea whether the author says "cad atá" - to be quite honest, I don't want to find out.

Yeah, whatever.

So it's "live and let live unless you happen to live in a Gaeltacht" then?

Well, Abigail, if the Gaeltacht dialects are not being kept up - then it means there will be nowhere to go to learn them and no-one to speak them to. I thought the whole point of the Gaeltacht was to keep the dialects in existence.