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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (March-April) » Archive through April 15, 2010 » Help with a verse « Previous Next »

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 10:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

this verse is about the poet Éamonn de Bhál being robbed by the highwayman, Séamas Fréiní

Is brón liom an sgeón so do ghlacais, a Éamoinn,
Mar chóbach neamhchródha gan neart 'n-a ghéagaibh;
'S gur dhóich linn, dar ndóchaint, gur cheap le céad tú!
'S do bhróga do sheóladh 'n-a ghlaic chun Fréiní!

It is the third line that I don't get, especially "dar ndóchaint, gur cheap le céad tú!"

The translation says:

"We're sad to hear of your trouble, Éamon,
How you blanched with fear like a thorough craven;
We thought you were brave and cool and daring
Till we heard you gave your boots to Freney!"

How is "'S gur dhóich linn, dar ndóchaint, gur cheap le céad tú!" "we thought you were brave and cool and daring"?

(Message edited by david_w on April 08, 2010)

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 44
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 06:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am not sure if anyone can advance an opinion, but could the line

'S gur dhóich linn, dar ndóchaint, gur cheap le céad tú!

be understood this way:

dóchaint = dóthain
ceap = leader or head

"and we thought, to our satisfaction, you were a leader with a retinue of 100" or "you were as brave as a centurion"?

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 274
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 06:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd say you have it David. The only other thing I can think of is 'ceap le céad' could mean the power of a 100 people/fighters.

Your own translation looks like the one. that is the leader with a 100 behind him.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9756
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 04:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dinneen gives a bewildering array of meanings for ceap, but I'm not sure leader is the correct one here.

I think "an obstacle to 100" fits the sense better.

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 57
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks a lot Aonghus, that makes sense now! I am thinking the translation ought to be "we thought you could take on a hundred"

Do you agree " dar ndóchaint" means "to our satisfaction"?

(Message edited by David_w on April 11, 2010)

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9757
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To be honest, I'm not sure. I found a reference to it here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20623019/The-Grammatical-Structure-of-Munster-Irish

I thought on first reading that it was an interjection like "dar fia"

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 717
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I hadn't a clue what it meant either but when I first read it I thought "dar ndóchaint" might be the same as "dar ndóigh" (= "of course") and might just be there to fill out the metrics and not really intended to add significantly to the meaning/message.

Knowing there was a reference to "bróga" coming up I thought "ceap" might mean "a shoemaker's last" and that a pun of some sort was intended. When I looked it up in Ó Dónaill however I saw that when referring to a person it means "a chief" or "a protector".

So "gur cheap le céad thú" could mean "that a 100 people would think you their protector/chief" or that you were "a chief with a 100 followers" i.e. that you were "the best" i.e. better than "cóbach neamhchróga gan neart 'na ghéagaibh" who would let Fréiní take his shoes. I wonder if "ceap le céad" were googled would many instances of its use come up?

Is the poet being searbhasach (sarcastic)? Is this an "aor" (a poem of satire).

Dinneen gives the following for "ceap" when applied to a person: "a leader, a progenitor, the head of a tribe or family, a supreme ruler, a battalion, a body of men in square array."

For "cóbach" he gives "a clown, a boor, a churl, the black-back (???!)"

I think the poet engaged in the favourite Irish pastime of "slaggin" and is contrasting "cóbach" with "ceap le céad" and pointing out that if he lost his shoes to Fréiní (the highwayman/robber) he's no "ceap le céad" but a bit of a "cóbach".

Now I'd like to see the rest of the poem. My curiosity has been whetted. Is deas an dán é más ón Mhumhain féin é!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9758
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 02:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl ann ach an rann amháin. Magadh seachas aor atá ann.

(Féach ceap céille, ceap magadh srl ag Dinneen; sin a chuir brí seachas ceannaire i'm cheann).

Seo freagra an fhile ar goideadh a bhróga ag an foghlaí

A óigfhir nach feolta a chanas bhéarsa
Ní dreoileacht neamhchróga do bhain dom féinig,
ach rógaire ar bhóthar do ghread le piléir mé
'S nár mhór aige siúd feoirling ná anam Éamoinn

p.s. ar eagrán s'agamsa chuir duine éigin an gluais cabóg le cóbhach

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 59
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 08:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is brón liom an sgeón so do ghlacais, a Éamoinn,
I am sorry about this fright you got, Eamonn (sgeon=scéin)

Mar chóbach neamhchródha gan neart 'n-a ghéagaibh;
Like a timid churl with no strength in his limbs (cóbach=caobach)

'S gur dhóich linn, dar ndóchaint, gur cheap le céad tú!
And we thought, we expected, you could take on 100

'S do bhróga do sheóladh 'n-a ghlaic chun Fréiní!
and you handed your shoes over to Freney (lit. into his handful)

A óigfhir nach feolta a chanas bhéarsa
Young man not wounded in combat who sings a verse (feolta - Dinneen's has feoluighthe wounded or cut, otherwise I don't know what this is; chanas - relative form of the verb)

Ní dreoileacht neamhchróga do bhain dom féinig,
It is not a timid puniness that happened to me (dreoileacht =dearóileacht)

ach rógaire ar bhóthar do ghread le piléir mé
but a rogue on the road who scorched me with a bullet

'S nár mhór aige siúd feoirling ná anam Éamoinn
who who thought no more than a farthing of Eamonn's soul/life


Any corrections?

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Jessica Mcknight (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 09:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How can I translate:
"Until we meet again, may god hold you in the palm of his hand"?

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 77
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 11:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go gcoimeádaidh Dia thu i mbais aige chun go mbuailimíd umá chéile arís?

Wait for someone to give a different view - I am not good at constructing my own Irish...

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9768
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 04:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is a clichéd translation of an Irish prayer.

I can't put my hand on my version of the original.

But it would be something like

Go raibh tú i mbos Dé go gcasfar ar a chéile arís muid

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David_w
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Username: David_w

Post Number: 81
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, the "chun go" above in my version was wrong - go or go dtí go would be right. I am wondering Aonghus whether the future autonomous or the subjunctive autonomous or both are right there? go gcasfar? or go gcastar?

Jessica, I would go with Aonghus' answer, but can I say it is better to open your own thread so your post gets noticed? Also www.irishgaelictranslator.com is the best site to ask for translations.

Luasgann an tAṫair Peadar mo ṡaoġal!.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9769
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 04:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think both are right.



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