I see the name Hiúdaí mentioned here and there in reference to people. Usually this style of naming seems to be a colloquial name or names, or a name that has a reference to one's ancestry. One recent example I saw was Seán Ó Duibheannaigh aka John Ghráinne aka John Phadaí Hiúdaí. Another was Proinsias Mac a' Bhaird's friend John Gallagher (RIP), who was called John Phincí. I also saw Sónaí recently too. Can someone enlighten me to understand this aspect of the culture? Now some of these seem to be "stage names" in the case of singers, but is there a clear explanation for me to understand traditional naming beyond the baptismal name and the regular last name (family name)?

Thanks!

Names vary depending on the age and gender of the person you are speaking to. On a foray into a remote Gaeltacht area long ago I found myself seeking out particular families for a particular purpose. I quickly discovered that there were only a few "official" English surnames in the area and that numerous people carried the same name.

These names were to be used by officialdom and strangers. When giving a name and address the name would be given in English: Hugh Brady for example; but since there might be four or five "Hugh Bradys" in a townland the grandfather's name (or grandmother's) would be appended in brackets: so Hugh Brady (Hiúdaí) would be given to assist the postman. (postperson?)


Among themselves they all had another designation however: their given name, their father's name (or mother's name) and their grandfather's name (or grandmother's name): Hugh Hughie Hiúdaí; John James Charlie. Some carried the "pet names" of their childhood throughout their lives: Seán Óg; Sonny Phaddy; Babby Brady etc.

If a woman were referring to a particular person she might refer to Mac Bhidí Bhridie Mheaigí or some such. (Each of the aitches may be read as "descendant of")Not necessarily however. In my particular search of the area I discovered that one family could have many names, some referring to the mother as somebody's daughter and grand-daughter; others referring to the father in a similar generational fashion.

I think this is a beautiful system of naming because it keeps two or three generations in memory and some people may be praised for some characteristic or other by reference to their grandparents.

Strangers entering such a community intending to spend time there and get to know people need to be extremely careful because there may also be nicknames which are used behind a person's back and it would create great amusement in the pub to have a stranger greet someone with the wrong name.

Strangers need also to bear in mind that since they themselves did not know either Hughie or Hiúdaí they might be safer to refer to the person by the first name and the surname: Hugh Brady or whatever. I have had it said to me:"Níl a fhios againn cé dár díobh thú. If you were to ask a small child "Cé thusa?" you might get the answer: "Leis an teach sin mé." (I belong to that house.)

Nicknames in a rural area can be amazingly informative and may refer to some physical characteristic good or bad; or a profession, shoemaker, tailor, fisherman, etc or an ironic reference to some incident in the person's life or some quirk of character. Again dangerous ground for the newly arrived resident in the locality.

Getting to know people in a closely knit community like that became easier once you realised who was related to whom. A look at a list of the local names as opposed to the official English names showed immediately the connections between the families.

A stranger arriving in a village asking for "Hugh Brady" might find people very reticent about knowing anyone of that name in the area despite being surrounded by houses containing people of that name. That is until they could be sure that this was not the dreaded "gauger" come to cut their dole payments.

I don't know if this is of help, SeánW?

I have to say this may be in the Irish blood because when I met my wife I never learned most of her friends real names. For instance, there is Straight Face, and Cinnamon Toddy, and Shane McGuire for Hire, or her friends are Jenny Day and Jenny Jones even though they married a McAdams and an O'Donoghue respectively (that is they took the husbands names but still are informally called by their maiden names). There are many others! She is not from a rural background at all, and obviously some of these are common to all peoples and rural/small communities. I was just amazed at the sheer volume of names. Did anybody have a "regular" name? Maybe some ancient tendency in her ancestry.

I find this very fascinating. Thanks, Taidhgín, for the introduction. Lots of history there, and I imagine this is the exact ways our family names and middle names came about anyways. It was very helpful. Even though I am surrounded by Irish people, the link has been cut a bit with the island, and my father-in-law from Ireland is good only for certain aspects of Irish culture. The Irish language and the culture surrounding it is lost to him, unfortunately.

If I remember correctly a man with the surname Ó Néill was on TG4's Comhrá and said that Hiúdaí was very common in the Donegal gaeltacht, in particular.

Yes, Danny, that seems to be the case. The last instance of running across this which lead to my question was an episode of "Treádaí an Chnoic". It had a Mánus Mac Pháidín from Gleann Tornáin. He said that in his area they call him "Mánus Mhiley". He then says later his father was "Miley Éamoinn Hiúdaí Rua". Then he refers to a “Hiúdaí Rua” from about 1740. I can see now after Taidhgín's post the historical links being maintained.

and in the Gleann Gaibhle area of north Cavan where old native speakers of Irish lived on to the 1930s and 40s. My example of "Hugh Hughie Hiúdaí" is actually a person's name. Hugh is formal or "modern", Hughie is a familiar name, and Hiúdaí is obviously a name from the Irish-speaking days. A similar name from the same area is "Tom Tommy Teamaí/Teaimín".

Hiúdaí would be an interesting name. Was it permanently h-prefixed?

Presumably from Aodh? Btw the thread next to this concerns 'Jimín'.If I remember right he is 'Jimín Mháire Thadg' -after his mother.So the maternal line is often just as important,if not more so.

On the subject of naming:

Isn't it true that the common practice of adding "-ín" to a male name to make it feminine is, basically, nonsense?
E.g. "Pádraigín" and "Seosaimhín" actually remain masculine and simply mean "Little Patrick" and "Little Joseph"!

Does anyone know if this is the case for all such names or are there some which have a long tradition of use as feminine names in the Gaedhealtacht?

Sin ceart Macdara. 'Jimín Mháire Thaidhg'. Séamas Ó Breasail an t-ainm a bhí ar a athair![agus Jimín comh maith]

Mo bhrón!! [agus Jimín chomh maith]

An old neighbour of ours was called "the manyeen" or mainín.

Tigh Hiudaí Bhig - the premier nightspot in Gaoth Dobhair/Bun Beag.

Nuair a bhí mé i mo ghasúr óg, tuairim deich mbliana d'aois, caith mé mí Lúnasa in Anagaire. Mas buan mo chuimhne, bhí bean a' tí againn ab ainm Biddy Hiudaí.

Can I take it that no one here is aware of any authentic/traditional examples of:
masculine name + "-ín" = feminine name ?

OK
This place is a real gold-mine of information :)


Perhaps I should have made mention of a tattoo? Something like -

"My girlfriend's name is Josephine and I'd like to have her name tattooed on my right buttock in the ancient language of my heroic Celtic warrior ancestors as a mark of my devotion. Classy!
Anyway, the trouble is I've heard that female names ending in "-ín", like "Seosaimhín", aren't quite as authentic as they're cracked up to be...."

quote:

Isn't it true that the common practice of adding "-ín" to a male name to make it feminine is, basically, nonsense? ... Anyway, the trouble is I've heard that female names ending in "-ín", like "Seosaimhín", aren't quite as authentic as they're cracked up to be....

I wouldn't say non-sense. Everyone knows what is being implied. A female is being named after Joseph, or it is a feminine of Joseph. So nonsense is not accurate. And authentic? What makes a name authentic? In as much as the Irish have a shared culture with other Christians, it is a very authentic tradition. Feminine names from male saints is long standing. Even if it wasn't practiced in Ireland for a very long time (which I doubt) doesn't negate it being quiet in line with the ethos of the culture. I don't think you can frame the issue of names the way you can frame other types of words. Names have always defied certain language rules because they have a different function. Also diminutives are common in regular speech in Irish in a variety of usages, e.g., go fóillín.

I hear what you are saying, a Shéamuis! Pádraigín is traditionally a male name. See http://www.answers.com/topic/p-draig-n-haic-ad for discussion of Pádraigin Haicéad, a (male) poet in the 17th century - a Tipperary lad who wrote poetry calling for rebellion.

But if a woman is called Pádraigín today - it may reflect influence from the French ending -ine.

As for nouns in -ín, they are not all masculine. Cathairín is feminine at least in Cork Irish - an chathairin, na cathairíneach etc.

Another interesting question is what females would have been named in placed of an -ín.

I'm not questioning the authenticity of the common custom of creating female forms of male (saints') names but how it's generally been done in recent times.
As far as I'm aware (I'm certainly not sure about it - hence my question here) names like Pádraigín and Seosaimhín were, and perhaps still are amongst native speakers, actually masculine - not simply grammatically but used exclusively for males.
It would be difficult to justify, in my opinion anyway, their use as feminine names simply because of their similarity to French/English female names ending in "-ine" like "Josephine".

quote:

Another interesting question is what females would have been named in placed of an -ín.

That's hard to say. "-óg" wouldn't do for the same reason as "-ín".

"-s(e)ach" can be diminutive or feminine (e.g. gadhairseach - "bitch", gaillseach - "woman foreigner") but seems (according to Dinneen) to not alter a personal name's gender e.g. Seánsach "Johnny", Pádsach/Páidseach - the possible source of "Patsy".

Another option which occurs to me is "-nait/d" found very frequently at the end of old female names like Gobnait and Damhnait. It might look & sound a bit odd suffixed to some of the masculine names in question though: "Pádragnait", "Seosamhnait" :)

Why do female names have to be cognate with male names? What about Nuala? What about Bríd? I don't see why either male or female names have to be formed from each other.

They don't have to. But when you want your female child named after St Joseph or St Patrick, or even uncle Joseph, or uncle Patrick, what do you do ...

You do it 'a la espanola' (dunno how to get the 'tilde')-as in the common female names 'María Jesús' and 'María José' (but not 'María Patricio')!

Very well explained a Thaidhgín.
That's exactly how it is here in Connemara.
Even the nicknames that shouldn't be mentioned in front of people LOL.

I'm better known from my fathers/grandfathers name than I would be from my first/surname.

And also I know people by their traditional names and if you ask me their surname I'd often wouldn't know.


People are known from their parents/grandparents until they marry then they can be known by both that name and also their spouses name. Usually the husband. But sometimes if a man moves into a woman's locality on marriage then he can be known from his wife's name.

SeánW - if you are talking about sean-nós singers. Then it's not a stage name it's their real traditional names.