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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (March-April) » Archive through April 03, 2010 » Blas na Gaeilge « Previous Next »

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Acco
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Username: Acco

Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 02:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been reading about the the tensions that existed at Tóstal na Gaeilge between native speakers and the people who run the Gaeilscoileanna, which I find very unfortunate.

It appears that people from the Galltacht don't take kindly to people who have the old foghraíocht, the blas etc. - the proper pronunciation. Why is this?

When I speak German to English speakers they are happy to accept it when I try to improve their pronunciation.

I organized an Irish evening in Berlin recently and I managed to entice one one the regular contributors to this site who was in Berlin at the time to come along.

He didn't have much time but he came along for an hour or so. (He speaks German like a native, not like an English speaker - maybe tht explains what follows.)

The other people there who were all speaking their Irish with an English accent and they thought he was showing off because he spoke Munster Irish with a very natural accent. I heard no anglo-sounds therein - and I am a good judge of language due to me being a mongrel - as I always say! Of course, they only said that after he was gone.

I have been tormenting the same man and bombarding him with emails, I must admit, to meet up with me and he is not very keen on publicity. He told me kind of confidentially (but now maybe I am kind of breaching that confidentiality) that he learned his first Irish from the last native speakers in Tipperary, in which there was no consolidated Gaeltacht but where the last native Irish speakers didn't die out until the mid-sixties.

Two interesting things I derived from this: there are still people around from certain non-Gaeltacht counties that had contact with native speakers from those counties and who got a bit of the old "dul na Gaeilge" from them (very interesting) and that the Irish speakers from the Galltacht don't like to hear too much of the blas.

What do ye think about this?

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3396
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 06:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It appears that people from the Galltacht don't take kindly to people who have the old foghraíocht, the blas etc. - the proper pronunciation. Why is this?



Because they are too proud to admit they don't pronounce properly, and too lazy to learn how to pronounce properly. They think "I am Irish so I speak Irish with a proper accent" which is nonsense because the sounds and prosody are completely different in Irish and English.
English has not broad or slender consonants, no χ, ɣ, apical r and so on...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 211
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 06:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sadly, it's human nature for people to just not be humble- people who are humble really stand out to me, everyone thinks that they know best. Perhaps this is why these groups from the Galltacht have this attitude. They certainly don't appreciate the heritage or the richness of the language either and think that what they are speaking and learning (sans blas) is the real thing. I feel sorry for them if they think they are better than Gaeltacht speakers but at the same time they make me sick.

I met a man in Conamara and like your friend he spoke perfectly in the local canúint. He was from America but living in Conamara 7 years at the time I met him. He said it took him 5 years to get to that level (full fluency in Conamara dialect) and he learned it fishing with Conamara men and out drinking :) He said after 3 years though he was happy with what he had but it took the extra two years for out and out fluency.
Another heartening story to counter the deplorable attitudes of the Galltacht groups you mentioned.

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Suaimhneas
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Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 494
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 05:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I find this kind of acrimony and division so depressing and it is a real switch-off for many who might otherwise take an interest.

I have recently started attending a weekly class in Dublin. It is such a joy to be with people who just want to enjoy learning the language.

There is so much elitism fostered by what I call the fluent learners, and I often get frustrated by some native speakers who have no interest in encouraging outsiders

Labhair í agus na bac leis an cac

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3398
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 08:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you're satisfied with an intermediate level (or beginner or whatever), you won't progress. You make progress by listening/reading/speaking with Gaeltacht speakers and trying to speak like them. That's the way it works for all languages, Irish is no exception.

When I hear people like John Ghráinne who knows and uses thousands of expressions I don't know, I get a bit discouraged but it doesn't last. At the same time, a learner should be happy with what he knows and try to know more and to master better. Learning is a nice thing too. If Irish were too easy it wouldn't be exciting to learn it :-)
The more difficult is the work, the more satisfied you are when you've accomplished it :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 813
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 01:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There is so much elitism fostered by what I call the fluent learners, and I often get frustrated by some native speakers who have no interest in encouraging outsiders.


As someone who's tried before to teach my native language to outsiders, I know first hand how difficult and exhausting it can be, which leads me to an immense appreciation for any native speaker who's patient enough to tolerate me slaughtering their language and earnestly pestering them for explanations they've given a thousand times already, as well as answers to questions they've never had to think about. (Try to explain how you know where to put the adverb in an English sentence and you'll have an idea what I'm getting at with that last bit.) As others have pointed out, learning a foreign language well requires a tremendous amount of humility. If you expect showers of appreciation to greet your every effort, well, then I don't know what to tell you.

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Alexderfranke
Member
Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 88
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 06:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think it is simply stupid of non-Gaeltacht speakers to mean that they are doing better than Gaeltacht speakers. They should admit that they have an English-influenced accent unless those who have really a perfect Gaeltacht accent.

I have heard the nost terrible pronunciation in Dublin city were some did not make any difference between a slender and broad r. But in other places outside the Gaeltacht I did not hear such. On the other hand I have heard several native Gaeltacht speakers having an English-influenced accent. But pure Gaeltacht speech will always remain the most beautiful Irish.

On the other hand native Gaeltacht speakers should accept that those outside the Gaeltacht do not speak a certain local dialect. Outside the Gaeltacht it is use speaking Irish more standardized. I anyhow think that local Gaeltacht dialects will more and more give way to either Southern or Northern Standard Irish. This is unavoidable today in times of people´s mobility. We should be glad of Irish actually being spoken.

Slán agus beannacht, Alex

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Scooby
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Username: Scooby

Post Number: 15
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 07:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am from Dublin and I have a Dublin accent which comes through when I speak Irish. I agree that the aim should be to have an accent approaching that of native Irish speakers.

I often listen to non-Gaeltacht speakers from outside Dublin speaking Irish and somehow their Irish sounds more natural simply because their accent seems to suit Irish better (and perhaps their English accent is less removed from its Irish language origins).

When I consider accents, I think of French people learning English. If they can communicate clearly in English despite having some flavour of a French accent, then that's perfectly fine by me. Frankly, I'd prefer this than a Cockney accent, a Scottish accent or whatever. Sometimes the learner's accent is clearer. I have French colleagues who have perfect English but they don't sound 100% like any native English speaker. Should I impose my Dublin accent on them - God forbid!

On the other hand, the person who imposes French language pronounciation on English is doomed to failure, and probably ridicule. The parallels with Irish are obvious.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 507
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As I've said before here, I encounter many accents of English in my area. Almost all of them are deficient in some way. For instance, the Vietnamese cut off the ends of words, and nasalize very heavily. Sometimes it is hard for me to make out what they are saying. I went to a Vietnamese sandwich place and the man asked me if I wanted "black coffee" or "milk coffee", but "milk" came out as a highly nasalized MEEL. I had no idea what he was talking about, until I put two and two together and thought that I certainly didn't want black coffee. His accent is not "perfect" California English. He and many others here are first generation immigrants. But, as I've said here before as well, their children will have a perfect accent, or certainly their grandchildren. These things take time, and some people will be more successful than others.

Concerning Irish, though, there is not that mass of natives like English is to Vietnamese here, and so it is more likely that Irish will change slightly as the English speakers reach up to Irish, but being so heavy the weight pulls a bit. There is also the rebuilding of regional accents which became extinct but remain somewhat in living Hiberno-English.

Just think of the opposite situation which occurred. English was introduced into Ireland as a minority language. It eventually subplanted Irish in many areas, but out came a distinctive pronunciation and grammar. Now these Hiberno-English dialects have also been supplanted from new and continous input from outside in the form of standarizd grammar and now world language status, but the Hiberno-English, for those who understand, is grammatically correct and distinctive, but certainly not the exact same English brought in from England. As Irish begins to regain ground in people's lives, the English they speak and learn will inevitably have an influence on their Irish, especially since the societal aim has become bilingualism. The question is whether the steady flow of Gaeltacht modeling and standardization will curb English overly influencing Irish. That remains to be seen. Up till now, though, I think nothing essential to the language has been upset by the process, and we never could know what Irish would have been without English influence. For instance, Ls Rs and Ns have been coalescing for years now in almost all areas. The slender and broad distinctions will probably also need to become more distinct, or coalesce into one. Etc.

All in all the fluent speakers should be accommdating and courteous while maintaining the standards of the language. The learners should be entusiastic to learn, thankful, and humble while aiming toward the standards.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 508
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I have French colleagues who have perfect English but they don't sound 100% like any native English speaker. Should I impose my Dublin accent on them - God forbid!



I remember a young Polish lady at the desk of a hotel in Dublin with a mixed Dublin/Polish accent on her English. It was quiet enchanting to be honest.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 680
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 01:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maith thú, Scooby. Well said. We're all on the one side here I hope.

Pronunciation of the living Irish language today ranges over a huge spectrum from the real Gaeltacht native-speaker with the blas to the excellent non-native-speaker but Irish-born and reared advanced learner's accurate representation of many if not all of the distinctive features of one or other of the dialects and so on down through the various grades of achievement among the hundreds of thousands (!!) of non-Gaeltacht speakers of Irish who are transmitting Irish to their children and grand-children.

Dublin-speakers of Irish are to be particularly appreciated. They also range from the amazingly accurate, fluent, and creative Gaeilgeoirí to .. ahem .. chancers earning a few bob on local radio and unwittingly revealing all the pitfalls facing the learner.

Then there are the good teachers with fluent Irish who do their best to teach the language to the million or more children attending school in Ireland on any single day.

Even as the personnel change due to age, accidents, alcoholism, and amigration, there are still, thankfully, a vast number of young people attracted to learn the ancient language of the Gael, teanga na nGael, an teanga ba dhual dúinn ónár sinsir, and they will have more opportunities than ever my generation had to hear and speak Irish with a good blas just as they have brilliant exemplars of good Irish prose and poetry in Gaeltacht literature.

Audio versions of accurate pronunciation allow learners to hear the best speakers just as Pádraig Ó Maoileoin's writings and those of dozens of other writers -- and translators, think of Pádhraic Ó Ruadháin, -- provide good sentence templates for the rest of us. Not for nothing did the teachers of yesteryear get us to learn the poetry by heart: "Má fháimse (fhaighimse) sláinte is fada bhéas trácht ar an méid a báthadh (bádh) as Eanach Dhúin... (Anach Cuain?)"

I admire everyone who makes the effort to speak and write Irish. Maith sibh.

Now English is a different matter. Some of the "foreign correspondents" from India and Pakistan are almost unintelligible to me and not such a pleasure to listen to.

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 111
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All a matter of taste surely,especially when it comes to English.

One of my best friends is a Kenyan Indian,whose command of English is almost intimidating.As for the Vietnamese lads who will wind up with perfect Californian:go bhfága Dia do ciall agaibh!

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 112
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 05:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

On reflection ,Seanw,we're all Californians now.People here in rural Cork are forever banging on about their 'issues'!

The Polish girls very quickly pick up odd local usages.

'So' is the first one,as in ;'that'll be two euros,so'.

'Grand' isn't far behind and so on.

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Ardri
Member
Username: Ardri

Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


Ireland is a bilingual country.

New dialects are coming into existence in Dublin and Belfast that are heavily inluenced by the way people speak English, just like how the Irish influenced the way our accents developed in English years ago.

Something new is growing out of the language, you may say it is incorrect. Nope, it is natural.

Dont forget the only reason "Irish" survived in its native form was as a result of the "ignorance" of the rural people that didnt learn English. Likewise, the reason our Irish accents developed was as a result of our Gaelic pronounciation= incorrect English.

There is no right or wrong in communication, there is what develops naturally. I know pedanticism is important for keeping the standard of Irish in traditional parts strong, and for educational purposes, but one should look into the circumstances that the new Irish is developing, the bilingual society.

(Message edited by Ardri on March 14, 2010)

Ó go n-ithe an diabhal thú!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3405
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 08:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What you call new Irish is simply Irish spoken by learners who didn't manage to speak Irish properly. Will you call New English the English that is spoken by French or Spanish teenagers who're learning English at school?

For all languages, the reference to follow is the speech of native speakers (native Gaeltacht speakers, in the case of Irish), not that of learners. When I learn a language, my aim is not to speak like another learner, but like a native speakers. It is self-evident about all other languages, why is it so hard to accept about Irish?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Ardri
Member
Username: Ardri

Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 08:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Because Irish is being re-introduced to parts of the island where it had ceased to exist...

the circumstances differ.

it is a similar notion that has rural Irish accents (in English) tabooed in favour of more "sophisticated"/urban/British/American accents.

(Message edited by Ardri on March 14, 2010)

Ó go n-ithe an diabhal thú!

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2010 - 08:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>'So' is the first one,as in ;'that'll be two euros,so'.

'Grand' isn't far behind and so on.


What is the origin in Irish of these? Is "so" derived from "nó mar sin"? What about "grand"? by the way, the Filppula book on HIberno-Irish is available for free download on the UZ Translations website - I think it is based in Uzbekistan where copyright doesn't apply...

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Eadaoin
Member
Username: Eadaoin

Post Number: 46
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 07:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

maith thú, Ardrí

no idea where "so" etc come from - we use "grand" all the time everywhere, but to my Dublin ear, having lived in Cork, "so" is very Cork.

there's also "bold" used instead of naughty -my English relatives used to laugh when I told the kids "don't be bold,now"

eadaoin

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 114
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 11:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another 'bookend'word is 'sure'.Very handy as it can be used in the beginning or the end of a sentence and it carries little,if any,meaning.Maybe close enough to 'is ea'for an Irish learner of English in days gone by?

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Ardri
Member
Username: Ardri

Post Number: 89
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2010 - 02:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

jaysus lads ye should here the poles in kerry/limerick at this stage!

ní mór na Polannaigh a chloisteáil im cheantair fé láthair;

"i swear on my mothers life boi, i'd give him a dog batin, ye've a shmoke?, he unrael" agus araile!

Molaim go mór iad haha

Ó go n-ithe an diabhal thú!



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