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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (March-April) » Archive through March 10, 2010 » Ceist gramadach, le bhur dtoil « Previous Next »

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Driftwood814
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Username: Driftwood814

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 12:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I understand that you use the article “an” for singular nouns, except feminine nouns in the genitive case, for which you use “na.”

O'Donaill says that “i” combines with the plural article to form “sna.” I am confused by the designation “singular/plural article.” In the case of singular feminine nouns in the genitive, is “na” a singular or a plural article? Or is it simply:

i + an = sa
i + na = sna

regardless of singular/plural?

GRMA

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3388
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

i+an = sa ---> only used before singular nouns (regardless of their gender).
i+na = sna ---> only used before plural nouns (regardless of their gender).


The article is never in the genitive case after "i" so with a feminine noun singular, after "i" you'll always have "an".

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 470
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

i + an = sa



Keep in mind too san, which is sa before a vowel or an f- (which goes to an fh-).

sa chupard
san fharraige, san aer

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3390
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

f+vowel only, otherwise before fr- or fl- you use sa : sa fhreagra, srl

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>f+vowel only, otherwise before fr- or fl- you use sa : sa fhreagra, srl


Who says? I think it should be:

sa bhfarraige
sa bhfreagra

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Crí
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Username: Crí

Post Number: 25
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 03:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Who says? I think it should be:

sa bhfarraige
sa bhfreagra



You are right, but it's only true for Munster and Conamara.
In Donegal and CO: san fharraige, sa fhreagra.

Go mairidh ár nGaelainn slán!

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Panu Höglund ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I" is never directly followed by a noun in genitive. So, it is "sa(n)" in singular, "sna" in plural.

It might be pedagogically wiser to use the older forms still extant in Ulster: "ins an" instead of "sa(n)" and "ins na" instead of "sna", because it is difficult to see the relatedness of sa and sna to i, while it is easier to understand why "ins an" and "ins na" are related to "i(n)".

No simple prepositions (with the exception of "chun") are followed by genitive. Can you give me an example where you would want to use a genitive after "i"?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3393
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 05:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

No simple prepositions (with the exception of "chun") are followed by genitive.



and trasna, cois, tigh, timpeall, fearacht...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Panu Höglund ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 12:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I would not call those "simple" prepositions. Well, "trasna" maybe, but it does not have personal forms.

Cois, chois, de chois is noun-derived, and so is tigh. Timpeall is historically speaking a compound noun, tim-cheall. Fearacht is also historically speaking a noun, and so is its synonym dálta.

Chun has personal forms, the same ones as chuig: chugam, chugat, chuige, chuici, chugainn, chucu. This is why I call it a simple preposition.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Panu and LUghaidh were both interesting. I learned something. I didn't know of fearacht before.

But I wonder *why* chun takes the genitive? Did it always do so in the times of Old Irish? Or does it have an interesting derivation?

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Curiousfinn
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Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 380
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 06:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe because "toward x" = "to x's direction"...

Dunno if this is exactly the reason why. But the pre/post positions taking a genitive object might be easier to explain to a Finn than an English speaker. For us, there are plenty of positions that can and will take genitive objects.

Tine, siúil liom!

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Panu ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 04:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"But I wonder *why* chun takes the genitive? Did it always do so in the times of Old Irish? Or does it have an interesting derivation?"

I am not very well informed about Old Irish or the history of Irish, because I intentionally focus on modern dialects. But "chun" indeed has some kind of interesting derivation: in older works, you will find "chum" or "do-chum" for "chun".

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Driftwood814
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Username: Driftwood814

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 12:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh

GRMA. Your first two sentences made it very clear.

Not so clear on your last sentence. Could you maybe give me some examples?

SeánW, yes, I am aware of "san" but that's easy enough to remember and that was not part of my confusion so I didn't reference it...

Gotta admit, I am partial to Munster Irish, and y'all just gave me six million directions to go in...

This is going to spawn many, many questions....

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 487
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Concerning chun:

It’s a form of tochim “proceeding” or “advancing”, which was a verbal noun of doching related to céim. Since it was a verbal noun, its object takes the genitive.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 02:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seámw - it is something I always wondered! Thanks



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