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Driftwood814
Member Username: Driftwood814
Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 12:21 pm: |
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I understand that you use the article “an” for singular nouns, except feminine nouns in the genitive case, for which you use “na.” O'Donaill says that “i” combines with the plural article to form “sna.” I am confused by the designation “singular/plural article.” In the case of singular feminine nouns in the genitive, is “na” a singular or a plural article? Or is it simply: i + an = sa i + na = sna regardless of singular/plural? GRMA |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3388 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 01:50 pm: |
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i+an = sa ---> only used before singular nouns (regardless of their gender). i+na = sna ---> only used before plural nouns (regardless of their gender). The article is never in the genitive case after "i" so with a feminine noun singular, after "i" you'll always have "an". Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 470 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 03:13 pm: |
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quote:i + an = sa Keep in mind too san, which is sa before a vowel or an f- (which goes to an fh-). sa chupard san fharraige, san aer I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3390 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:16 pm: |
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f+vowel only, otherwise before fr- or fl- you use sa : sa fhreagra, srl Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:31 pm: |
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>f+vowel only, otherwise before fr- or fl- you use sa : sa fhreagra, srl Who says? I think it should be: sa bhfarraige sa bhfreagra |
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Crí
Member Username: Crí
Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2009
| Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 03:40 am: |
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quote:Who says? I think it should be: sa bhfarraige sa bhfreagra You are right, but it's only true for Munster and Conamara. In Donegal and CO: san fharraige, sa fhreagra. Go mairidh ár nGaelainn slán!
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Panu Höglund ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:41 am: |
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"I" is never directly followed by a noun in genitive. So, it is "sa(n)" in singular, "sna" in plural. It might be pedagogically wiser to use the older forms still extant in Ulster: "ins an" instead of "sa(n)" and "ins na" instead of "sna", because it is difficult to see the relatedness of sa and sna to i, while it is easier to understand why "ins an" and "ins na" are related to "i(n)". No simple prepositions (with the exception of "chun") are followed by genitive. Can you give me an example where you would want to use a genitive after "i"? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3393 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 05:37 pm: |
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quote:No simple prepositions (with the exception of "chun") are followed by genitive. and trasna, cois, tigh, timpeall, fearacht... Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Panu Höglund ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 12:56 pm: |
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I would not call those "simple" prepositions. Well, "trasna" maybe, but it does not have personal forms. Cois, chois, de chois is noun-derived, and so is tigh. Timpeall is historically speaking a compound noun, tim-cheall. Fearacht is also historically speaking a noun, and so is its synonym dálta. Chun has personal forms, the same ones as chuig: chugam, chugat, chuige, chuici, chugainn, chucu. This is why I call it a simple preposition. |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, February 28, 2010 - 06:24 pm: |
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Panu and LUghaidh were both interesting. I learned something. I didn't know of fearacht before. But I wonder *why* chun takes the genitive? Did it always do so in the times of Old Irish? Or does it have an interesting derivation? |
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Curiousfinn
Member Username: Curiousfinn
Post Number: 380 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 06:06 am: |
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Maybe because "toward x" = "to x's direction"... Dunno if this is exactly the reason why. But the pre/post positions taking a genitive object might be easier to explain to a Finn than an English speaker. For us, there are plenty of positions that can and will take genitive objects. Tine, siúil liom!
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Panu ar cuairt (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 04:12 am: |
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"But I wonder *why* chun takes the genitive? Did it always do so in the times of Old Irish? Or does it have an interesting derivation?" I am not very well informed about Old Irish or the history of Irish, because I intentionally focus on modern dialects. But "chun" indeed has some kind of interesting derivation: in older works, you will find "chum" or "do-chum" for "chun". |
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Driftwood814
Member Username: Driftwood814
Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 12:20 pm: |
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Lughaidh GRMA. Your first two sentences made it very clear. Not so clear on your last sentence. Could you maybe give me some examples? SeánW, yes, I am aware of "san" but that's easy enough to remember and that was not part of my confusion so I didn't reference it... Gotta admit, I am partial to Munster Irish, and y'all just gave me six million directions to go in... This is going to spawn many, many questions.... |
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Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 487 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 02:11 pm: |
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Concerning chun: It’s a form of tochim “proceeding” or “advancing”, which was a verbal noun of doching related to céim. Since it was a verbal noun, its object takes the genitive. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 - 02:29 pm: |
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Seámw - it is something I always wondered! Thanks |
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