I am learning Munster Irish at the moment. I would like to know what books are out there can help to enrich the vocabulary of my munster irish. I was thinking something along the lines of 'Beal Bocht' or 'Fiche Bliain ag Fas'. I was also thinking about getting 'Cre na Cille', but i doubt that would have munster irish in it. What books would ye suggest, and if you read the books that i've mentioned above ,would ye recommend them?
Slan libh.

I like Seán Mac Mathúna, who is from Trá Lí. I particularly like his short story collection Úlla, which is also available in audiobook.

http://coislife.ie/authors/CLauthors/SeanMhacMathuna.htm

"Niall Tóíbín ag léamh Gearrscéalta le Seán Mac Mathúna"

http://coislife.ie/books/prosebooks/clos.htm

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=5905

Listen to a sample (Leaca an Tí Mhóir):

http://www.coislife.ie/leaca.mp3

The text of Leaca an Tí Mhóir, if you want to follow (scroll down a bit):

http://coislife.ie/books/prosebooks/banana.htm

And here is a sort of taste from Raidió na Life:

http://www.raidionalife.ie/podcast/Linte%20Life%201%20-%20Sean%20Mac%20Mathana.m p3

Ceard fe focloir don chanuint mumhan, a Shean, no einne eile? Labharfad libh ar ball.

(Message edited by seamás91 on February 19, 2010)

A Sheamáis,
Níl a fhios agam. I bhfoclóir De Bhaldraithe cuirim líne faoi fhocal na háite nó scríobhaim isteach ann. Scagaim na focail as na leabhair agus closáin. Mar shampla (i gcanúint an Tuaiscirt):

table: bord, tábla. Cuirim líne faoi thábla.
throat: scornach. Ach scríobhaim sceadamán isteach ann.

(Message edited by seánw on February 19, 2010)

Seán W, are those you listed specifically in Munster Irish (as asked by the OP), and no in the CO. Are all those books the full-on Munster dialect?

Munster literature

By Tomás Ó Criomhthain (1856-1937)

* Allagar na hInise (1928)
* Dinnsheanchas na mBlascaodaí (1928)
* An tOileánach (1929)
* Allagar II (1999)

By Pádraig Ó Duinnín (1860-1934):
* Cormac Ua Conaill, 1901 (the first ever novel in Irish)
* Beatha Eoghain Ruaidh Uí Shúilleabháin, 1902
* Muinntear Chiarraidhe roimh an droch-shaoghal, 1905
* Faoistin Naomh-Phádraig, 1906 (the Confessio of St. Patrick in three languages)


By Peig Sayers (1873-1958)

* Peig (1936)
* Machnamh Seanamhná (19390
* Beatha Pheig Sayers (1970)
* Labharfad le Cách (2010)

By Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha (1883- 1964) An Seabhac

* An Baile Seo Gainne (1913)
* Jimín Mháire Thaidhg (1919)
* Beatha Theobald Wolfe Tone (1937) translation

By Seán Ó Criomhthain (1898-1975) (son of Tomás)

* Lár Dár Saol (1969)

By Mícheál Ó Siochfhradha (1900-1986)

* Stair-sheanchas Éireann. Cuid 1, Ó thús aimsire go A.D. 1609 (1965)
* Stair-sheanchas Éireann : cuid II, ó 1609 go 1933 A.D.

By Muiris O Súilleabháin (1904-1950)

* Fiche Blian ag Fás (1933)

By Pádraig Ó Maoileoin (1913-) (grandson of Tomás Ó Criomhthain)

* Na hAird Ó Thuaidh (1960) (autobiography)

By Mícheál Ó Guithín (son of Peig Sayers) (1904-1974)

* Is truagh na fanann an óige (1953)

By Peadar Ó Laoghaire (1839-1920)

* Mo Sgéal Féin
* Séadna
and many other books (see Wikipedia article for list)

Nach álainn an liosta é. Jimín, An Baile seo 'Gainne, Na hAird Ó Thuaidh. Léifidh mé arís iad le cúnamh Dé sula mbuaile an clog.

Agus Maidhc Dainín, agus Pádraig Ó Cíobháin ...

an bheadh An Seabhac go maith do mo chuid cleactadh i gcanuint Mumhan?

quote:

Seán W, are those you listed specifically in Munster Irish (as asked by the OP), and no in the CO. Are all those books the full-on Munster dialect?

I guess it depends on your view. I figure what a native speaking Munsterman writes is the Munster dialect, to a more or less degree, unless he is purposely trying to portray a character from another area. I'm not a master of dialects, but Seán Mac Mathúna's writings strike me as "Munsterish". I don't know what a "full-on" Munster book would be. Would it be a transcription of farmers conversing in the local pub in language an Irishman from another region would barely recognize? Would it be a text purposely written to avoid usages of other areas, a text that is hyper-provincial? I don't know if Mac Mathúna fits that mold, but he also doesn't fit the mold of someone who is composing purely a CO text, purposely avoiding dialectical features. He's a native speaker from Trá Lí, that's enough to certify the text as Munster, right? If Seamás is interested in the purely local forms, then I'd suggest the An Teanga Bheo Corca Dhuibhne text. I think most stories are trying achieve a different goal then conveying dialectical information, or they should if they are good writers. Maybe there are a few texts which had this goal in mind, but I think any good reading from a native Munsterman would fit the bill.

Who are Maidhc Dainín, agus Pádraig Ó Cíobháin? I don't know them. I would love to know of any other Gaeltacht writers in Munster Irish. The only Waterford one I have heard of is Nioclás Tóibín (1890-1966) [be careful: there are several people called Nioclás Tóibín, and you need to get the dates right to make sure it is him]. He wrote An Rábaire Bán (1928) and also translated Notes of an Irish Exile, a book about the travail of the exiles after the United Irish rebellion of 1798.

Seán, can I clarify? I am not saying those works are not in Munster Irish. I just don't know. But you said "I figure what a native speaking Munsterman writes is the Munster dialect" - no! that is not the case. While the dialects are still spoken in the Gaeltacht, the more fluent writers nowadays can and do write in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil. The fact someone comes from Trá Lí does not make their writing Munster Irish, unless he chooses to write in Munster Irish. See the igaeilge blog from the Muskerry Gaeltacht for an example of a native speaker who chooses not to write in Munster Irish. You're not going to learn any Munster Irish by reading the igaeilge blog. But, as you say, some speakers may write in a CO with Munster flavour - ie something not entirely neutral, or not purposely neutral. The books I listed above are the genuine real McCoy.

I would recommend OP to start with Peig SAyers' Labharfad le Cách. It is in print (printed in 2009), comes with CDs of her speaking, and has full translation too - and is indisputably Munster Irish.

Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé is a popular writer from Corca Dhuibhne - via Chicago - who has written such novels as "A Thig Ná Tit Orm" - "Dochtúir na bPiast" and many more.

Here's what Professor Alan Titley said of Pádraig Ó Cíobháin back in a Survey of Celtic Literatures in 2000

quote:

A recently much-praised writer from the Kerry Gaeltacht is Pádraig Ó Cíobháin
who suddenly produced several novels and collections of short stories. He is
important in that he continues the tradition of Gaeltacht writing while modernising
and expanding it. The first flush of Gaeltacht autobiographies in the twenties
and the thirties has indeed been followed by a second slush in the past ten
years or so. Whereas the early books were delineating a way of life which was
quickly vanishing the new wave was largely a rip-off of the fame that they had
earned. The publication of sentimental memoirs hardly helps the self-confi-
dence of a community even if they do look good on the shelves of the latest
interpretative centre. Ó Cíobháin’s stories, even if they are sometimes unwieldy
and undisciplined, show a vibrancy beating within the heart of a community
and an imagination confident in its own authenticity beyond special pleading
and image.

quote:

... the more fluent writers nowadays can and do write in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil ...

I guess what are needed then are definitions. What does "writing in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil" mean? A book in the standard spelling may or may not display the same word choices and grammatical syntax. A book which has that AND avoids the local verb inflections, prepositional pronoun forms, and the peculiar declensions of some nouns is going further, but still the "Munster" may be in there because often there is a one for one replacement. I still think those books are just as authentic. And there are even further steps which may tend toward artificiality. While I know what the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is -- it is very definite and fits between two covers -- I am not always aware of a book or text "in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil", because it is not black and white, but often a graded scale. It seems to me most writers find a balance between it and the peculiarities of their region, and that is a new style in itself. And this occurs in any writing in any language a standard exists. To say something is CO or not, for a text after it was developed, I think is often not always possible. (Do most texts besides government texts obey the standard in all things?)

quote:

You're not going to learn any Munster Irish by reading the igaeilge blog.

Perhaps, and perhaps that is far from the blog's goal, as may be far from the goal of most books. Perhaps the writer of the blog writes very naturally, applying the appropriate register in his life for the task he is working on. What, did no Munsterman write in a literary manner before the 40s? Was all the old writing "real" while the new writing "artificial"? In fact their writings influenced the CO! The dynamic has changed and a new register scale has developed. I still wonder about "Muster Irish" and the "genuine real McCoy" Munster. I acknowledge Seamás wanting to know the unique features of his region's Irish. In particular he wants to enrich his vocubulary. Nothing wrong with that. I even think Mac Mathúna could do that since I don't interpret his vocularly as CO, Conamara, nor Ulster. Perhaps there should (or is?) a new genre developed -- dialectical literature -- in which the goal of the literature was to document and capture dialectical information for posterity, the story being simply a vehicle to convey that. Mac Mathúna isn't that genre. He is a Munsterman who writes short stories. So, Seamás, you might like them, you might not. You'll probably learn some vocabulary, particularly in the spoken parts of the stories.

I made a suggestion from my personal experience. I won't certify it "Munster" like it is beef, or organic produce. I guess in the end I define the art by the person, not from the abstact idea. Native Munster speakers define Munster Irish, not the abstract idea of what that is.

Let me give one example of what I mean. The Gaeltacht at Rath Cairn is noted for its Galway Irish, although it is in Meath. I suppose if they wrote literature - I don't know what the literary output of the Rath Cairn Gaeltacht is, if any - it would be Meath literature, but by the same token, Galway Irish.

By the same token, in a much more remote way, we all (English and Irish speakers) speak dialects of Indo-European. We've moved, we've developed. Language change is a cruel fact for some, and there is a constant play between conservative and liberal trends. Ráth Cairn is a much more remote example, and maybe hasn't drifted much from the Irish of their neighbors in the thirties. BUT, do you think their new neighbors haven't influenced them? There may not be enough difference in the language to now distinguish it as Meath Irish, but time could produce that. That's hard to see now with all areas influencing one another, and that is probably why the concept of a dialect in Ireland needs to slowly be done away with, and the idea of a accent developed, both naturally. This idea reflects more the fact that there is ultimately one nation, so they share political unity, and historically they have had unity in culture, and the island is quiet small. Within that unity you have regional flavors, accents, because I believe most certainly that the only significant differences which will remain in the future with be through pronunciation. This may be a tragedy to some, but it seems to be happening through the desires of Irish speakers themselves to speak with one another and find common ground amongst one another. The trend is toward unity, and the defined lines of "Munster Irish" etc are becoming harded to define, unless you are pulling these distinctions from older books, which purposefully highlight differences which are not always operable anymore, or only operable when people speak amongst their close neighbors. Just food for thought if anything.

>. BUT, do you think their new neighbors haven't influenced them?


Well, yes, the neighbours of the Rath Cairn Gaeltacht have probably influenced them, but as their neighbours speak English, they have probably influenced them towards English rather than towards another variety of Irish.

You make it sound like there is a political imperative to destroy the dialects, but it has always been specifically asserted that this is not the aim, and that the dialects remain respected.

If pronunciation ("accent") becomes the only distinguishing feature of spoken Irish, it will be a sign that the dialects have died out - and in fact that native Irish has died out. The Gaeltacht would have gone by then! And arguably, the political will to fund the teaching of Irish will have gone too.

I am a libertarian, and I don't agree with state control of education. I would like to see people given vouchers to purchase their own education in the private sector, with no further state input. If people want to purchase education at Gaeilscoils (gaedhealsgoileanna), then that would be their right, or if they wished 100% English that would be their right too, and if some opened up to teach purely through Irish dialect, it would be only responded to market demand.

quote:

You make it sound like there is a political imperative to destroy the dialects, but it has always been specifically asserted that this is not the aim, and that the dialects remain respected.

I don't think it is deliberate for the most part, but the major trend since the inception of the Republic, and the modern movement of the Irish language, has been toward unity.

quote:

If pronunciation ("accent") becomes the only distinguishing feature of spoken Irish, it will be a sign that the dialects have died out

No, changed. This is even evident if you look at the last 100 years or so. Clearly there has been a coming together of grammar, and a still strong distinction in pronunciation. Even the standard they've managed to pull off has accomplished only this. It is quite "by the book" these developments.

Some dialects have authentically died out, because the speakers died. But the surviving ones wouldn't die out, but change. If your concept of a particular dialect is frozen in time, then it may seem that it is dead. The old English dialect of Geoffrey Chaucer, for instance, never died out, it changed. You might hear it in a pub in the East End of London.

quote:

in fact that native Irish has died out

Native Irish is learned from birth. It's just that simple. Do you imagine that if "dialects" are gone that no one is learning Irish from birth. I think this has more to do with how "native" is defined instead of the fate of the language. There are many native speakers who defy the traditional dialectical boundaries. I think it is much more dynamic than some would admit.

quote:

I am a libertarian, and I don't agree with state control of education. I would like to see people given vouchers to purchase their own education in the private sector, with no further state input.

The Irish Constitution already enshrines the right of the parents to educate their child/children as they wish. Do the Irish assert their rights?

quote:

Oideachas
Airteagal 42

1. Admhaíonn an Stát gurb é an Teaghlach is múinteoir príomha dúchasach don leanbh, agus ráthaíonn gan cur isteach ar cheart doshannta ná ar dhualgas doshannta tuistí chun oideachas de réir a n-acmhainne a chur ar fáil dá gclainn i gcúrsaí creidimh, moráltachta, intleachta, coirp agus comhdhaonnachta.
2. Tig le tuistí an t-oideachas sin a chur ar fáil dá gclainn ag baile nó i scoileanna príobháideacha nó i scoileanna a admhaítear nó a bhunaítear ag an Stát.
3. 1° Ní cead don Stát a chur d'fhiacha ar thuistí, in aghaidh a gcoinsiasa nó a rogha dleathaí, a gclann a chur ar scoileanna a bhunaítear ag an Stát nó ar aon chineál áirithe scoile a ainmnítear ag an Stát.2° Ach ós é an Stát caomhnóir leasa an phobail ní foláir dó, toisc cor an lae, é a dhéanamh éigeantach minimum áirithe oideachais a thabhairt do na leanaí i gcúrsaí moráltachta, intleachta agus comhdhaonnachta.
4. Ní foláir don Stát socrú a dhéanamh chun bunoideachas a bheith ar fáil in aisce, agus iarracht a dhéanamh chun cabhrú go réasúnta agus chun cur le tionscnamh oideachais idir phríobháideach agus chumannta agus, nuair is riachtanas chun leasa an phobail é, áiseanna nó fundúireachtaí eile oideachais a chur ar fáil, ag féachaint go cuí, áfach, do chearta tuistí, go mór mór maidir le múnlú na haigne i gcúrsaí creidimh is moráltachta.
5. I gcásanna neamhchoiteanna nuair a tharlaíonn, ar chúiseanna corpartha nó ar chúiseanna morálta, nach ndéanaid na tuistí a ndualgais dá gclainn, ní foláir don Stát, ós é an Stát caomhnóir leasa an phobail, iarracht a dhéanamh le beart oiriúnach chun ionad na dtuistí a ghlacadh, ag féachaint go cuí i gcónaí, áfach, do chearta nádúrtha dochloíte an linbh.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Irela nd%20%28Irish%29.pdf


I've said my peace on this. I'm going to move on. The main point is that the view which overly focuses on the differences, which never are as common nor as exaggerated as some would make them out to be, have a hard time pointing to anyone who writes now as authentic, in their view. Everyone has gone over to the CO, etc. etc. There is only a tiny remnant who have the true knowledge .... But just maybe the language is changing, and perhaps due to causes completely different than the CO. The Munster Irish of a young person in Tralee might very well offend those who hold eternally a notion of Irish which has never hit that young persons ear.

A quote to end on:

"Some of those connected with the Gaelic movement are of opinion that the Irish spoken at the present day is not good enough. They insist on having pure Irish or none at all. Hence, they are determined to root out all corruptions, and supply the deficiency from the cob-webs of the past. ...

"I agree with most others of the Gaelic movement that unity should be preserved as much as possible, even in the beginning. Irish is divided into three dialects, which differ pretty considerably in some respects. It is certain, however, that these differences are somewhat exaggerated, no doubt by those who have made the written language the study of their lives. ...

"Although [my Grammar] is pre-eminently the language of old Tirconaill, it is none the less the language of Ireland; for, the Northern element over the general construction of our mother tongue—which is universally the same— is scarcely perceptible. In writing this Grammar, therefore, my principal object, and I might say my only labour, lay, not in showing forth Northern usage, but in perfecting the general rules of Irish grammar."

James Patrick Craig, Modern Irish Grammar, 1900

[He was saying this then, how much more so now.]

Seán, nearly all writing in Irish is done by non-native speakers in the Galltacht. Looking at the figures, how could it be otherwise? I think you are right that the native speakers employed in the Údarás or as teachers have to write in the CO as a condition of their jobs, but the number of native speakers writing in Irish is a mere handful. In fact, the ability to write in Irish, knowing how to spell all the words, and knowing the Irish equivalent for a broad range of modern terms on finance and economics and public policy - is rare in the Gaeltacht, where most of those technical terms don't exist. What you are missing is that the most fluent native speakers don't speak the CO. They're not writing much, but they are speaking. The weaker speakers speak more CO-influenced versions.

Seán, obviously I will carry on learning what I want to - and cannot tell anyone else what to learn. I think it's great if everyone develops his own specialism. Eg Lughaidh here has specialised in Ulster Irish. Peter here has specialised in Connemara Irish. I would like to (a little more clumsily and with less raw ability than those two) specialise in Cork Irish, and good luck to those who are learning Standard Irish and those learning Old Irish too! There is this richness - as indicated in the thread title - that gives space for people to "do their thing".

There is a collection of poems in Munster Irish written by Simon Ó Faoláin called 'Anam Madra'. Seriously high standard of writing imo. I think Kerry Irish more so than Cork. I think Séamus you will find a gem or two in it anyway :)

go raibh maith agat, a shean! cifead mo siuil ar an cheann sin.

It is less than ten years since I began reading this and other Irish language bulletin boards and in that time I have never failed to be astonished at the preoccupation of some learners with "dialects" while all I ever wanted to do was "learn Irish" -- all of it -- North, South, East, and West.

Our greatest prose writer so far, Máirtín Ó Cadhain, earned quite a few kudos for his extensive vocabulary based on his own dialect but drawing freely on all the others including those of Scotland. In some of his pieces he played with words as did Joyce in Finnegan's Wake.

To my mind the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is a safety net for all of us to ensure we don't stray too far apart from each other.

Nor should anyone underestimate the influence of Raidió na Gaeltachta. I remember long ago one of my neighbours in the Gaeltacht was an elderly bachelor who listened avidly to R na G and delighted in telling me of world problems. For me he spoke slowly and deliberately and I sensed he savoured all the new words he had learnt from the radio.

That cross-fertilisation / enrichment of the dialects has been going on now for more than 50 years -- and still the language continues to emerge in whatever town there is a newstory every night on TG 4.

By all means study dialect if you must but don't forget there are no walls around them and they are blending together. As in any language that is changing with use you have to find some really isolated people to find the really distinctive features of an older form of the dialect. Worth recording. Worth preserving. Worth studying. Hardly worth teaching to the bulk of the population no more than the Unionists will want to learn Ullans or Ulster Scotch. That would set their English spelling back a bit.

Anyway there is still the real reason we're learning and using Irish:

because it is ours, all of it, we know it, we like it, we want to use it and hear more of it and we're going to use it for our own purposes in our own time, after that ....

Here are two two verses which I learnt by heart long ago without ever thinking of dialect:

Ní hí an ainnise is measa linn ná bheith thíos go deo
Ach an tarcaisne a leanas í a ghoinfeadh na leoin.
Má tá an tAthair-Mhac mar an Eaglais níl brí inár ngnó
Is ní fearra dhúinn an tAifreann ná suí ar an móin.

===========
Do threascair an saol is shéid an ghaoth mar smál,
Alastar, Saesar, is an méid úd a bhíodh ina bpáirt.
Tá an Teamhair ina féar is féach an Traoi mar atá,
Is na Sasanaigh féin go mb'fhéidir go bhfaighidis bás.
+++++++++++

>To my mind the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is a safety net for all of us to ensure we don't stray too far apart

from each other.

But there is no need to seek to impose this view on everyone. If anyone wants to learn, eg Tory Island

Irish - why not?

>Worth recording. Worth preserving. Worth studying. Hardly worth teaching to the bulk of the

population no more than the Unionists will want to learn Ullans or Ulster Scotch. That would set their

English spelling back a bit.

Well, you did say "worth studying", so why try to imply I shouldn't be studying that? There is no reason

why a real dialect should not have been chosen to teach to the whole population - in fact it is was a

colossal mistake not to do so, as it has led to teaching a made-up dialect. True, the majority of

speakers and writers are non-natives in the Galltacht, so they are driving whatever language change

happens today, but they are doing so having been taught a made-up dialect. This is not just "cross-

fertilisation" at all. I would like Ireland's literary heritage pre-1945 to be accessible to the children of

Ireland - and yet, written in the script, the wrong spelling, the wrong morphology and the wrong

vocabulary, those books are now unavailable.

There were hundreds of works published between 1880 and 1945 in what is known as the Gaelic

Revival - a handful - only a handful are available nowadays. Séadna, Peig, an tOileánach and a few

others are available, but of Peadar Ua Laoghaire's 40-odd books, all are unavailable except Séadna,

and I haven't checked whether Mo Sgéal Féin is also available in modern spelling. The other 40-odd

have simply been deleted from Irish heritage. Why shouldn't someone read Don Chiochóté or Críost

Mac Dé or Aithris ar Chríost, or whatever?

I am specifically linking the issue with the issue of literary heritage. Most works in the Gaelic Revival

were in Munster Irish - Peadar Ua Laoghaire's own literary output dwarfed anyone else's. Including the

whole Bible in Cork Irish that he left in manuscript, which was sunk without trace by the authorities.

What about the works of the 19th century? The diary of Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin? The poetry of the

18th century? Párliament na mBan? The diary of Tadhg Ó Cianáin? Ireland's pre-1945 literary heritage

is now "for specialists only". Can you imagine England would try to fence off Dickens, Austen and

Shakespeare and prevent their study? The children of the Galway Gaeltacht must (do?) grow up

reading the works of Máirtín Ó Cadhain. The children of the Donegal Gaeltacht must (do?) grow up

reading the Grianna brothers. To argue otherwise is to divorce language from the literary heritage

altogether - Ireland is thereby reinvented as a country with no heritage or literary works other than

"modern fiction". That is totally wrong - anti-education.

The comparison with Ullans is totally false. The literary heritage of English is mainly written in Standard English - Dickens, Austen, Hardy, Pope, Milton, Blake, Dryden etc. There are the poems of Robbie Burns that would be accessible in Lowland Scots, which Ullans is related to - but writing exclusively in Ullans would divorce young speakers of English from the English literary heritage - those writers I mentioned, but also James Joyce, W. B. Yeats and all the Irish writers in English.

quote:

I would like Ireland's literary heritage pre-1945 to be accessible to the children of Ireland - and yet, written in the script, the wrong spelling, the wrong morphology and the wrong vocabulary, those books are now unavailable.

What rubbish. I have read nearly everything you mention apart from Tadhg Ó Cianán's diaries, and a good deal that is older and more obscure besides. I say this not to blow my own horn as a reader - I'm nobody special - but just to emphasize that all this older literature, even without reprinting, is not as remote and inaccessible as some people would like to make it out.

I'd like to see more old books reprinted too, seanchló or nuachló, but the notion that they are somehow "unavailable" until then is a peculiar one. They're available to me, and to anyone else willing to put in even an hour's work - which writers, or aspiring writers, or even aspiring well-rounded readers, invariably do at some point.

But where literature is concerned the CO seems to me to be fairly close to the old written Irish. I think that was the idea of CO originally - to go back to the "noble" language that was, they say, common over the whole island (and perhaps in scotland too).

I've been learning something approximating to CO for over 60 years.
It doesn't give me a problem reading the poetry of Riocard Bairéid or Ó Bruadair (though I'm glad some of the spelling is simplified).
I don't have a problem reading Cré na Cille - not with grammar or spelling, just my stór focail was way too small to start with.
I did find "An t-Oileánach" harder going, and it was the grammar there, but half way through I acclimatised.

With a reasonable CO background, you can then launch out into any of the dialects, or not, as you wish.

eadaoin

I agree, Abigail. Add to the original literature the large number of translations from European languages which can be found in secondhand shops. Some of those are well worth reading in Irish for their content as well as for the language.

Some new editions of older texts have been issued in the Caighdeán and I suppose if it has to be a choice between that and having youngsters reading them in English at least it makes the language more accessible to more people.

Something I hate to see however is songs and poetry composed long before the Caighdeán was ever thought of being republished in the Caighdeán with all the beauty washed out of them. Their rythm, rhyme, and cadences all depend on the original poetic forms should not be changed.

That is just ignorance on the part of the publishers and their Irish-speaking collaborators. Apart from that it is pointless because people can't sing them and if they try they sound ridiculous. Those who know the original forms throw up their hands in despair and switch to English thinking their (authentic) version has been rejected for some reason.

Songs need to be sung exactly as they were originally intended with all the older forms and the exact pronunciation of the local dialect as it was then. They are sacred and changing them is sacrilege.

Oh. And by the way: leave the guitar at home. Try the drones of the píobaí uilleann or a few arpeggios on the harp or harpsichord for accompaniment. Don't strum.

The works on the Irish curriculum are in a Word document at http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/m04_04.doc

They include the option of 3 pages from Fiche Blian ag Fás, and 8 pages from Lig Sinn i gCathú.

Is there a separate curriculum for the Gaeltacht? Have I misunderstood the document? I hope so!

A chairde, Dia daoibh.
If you look at:
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/50205.html?1267151479
You will find that I have been re-typesetting another book.
I have finished Dillon, but due to copyright matters, you need to contact me personlly to find it.
I also have, My great thanks to Gael-Linn, a very good copy of the audio discs, and a very good scan of the record covers.
Gael-Linn have given me permission to publish these on a Not For Profit educational basis. I will post these on Box.net in due course, replacing the older versions. It will be an update, so the link will remain the same.
The re-typesetting work is in progress, but proof-reading, and comments on my comments and observations can be made during WIP.
Go raibh maith agat.
Is mise, le meas,
Déyv.

Why shouldn't someone read Don Chiochóté...

It's available again - and I'm actually reading it at the moment. In fact, I've just finished Rotha Mór an tSaoil. The first book mentioned is written in the Cork dialect and the second one is in (one of) the Donegal dialect(s).

Reading non-CO literature and making the transition from one dialect to the other is really no big deal at all.

It is completely exaggerated.

Variety is the spice of life. Get to know the spice; it's worth the effort.

And stop scaring people off with dialectical horror-stories. ;-)

(Message edited by ormondo on February 28, 2010)

Mo sheacht ngrá thú, a bhuachaill.

Tá mé ag léamh Rotha Mór an tSaoil faoi láthair. Cé nach bhfuil an méid ghaeilge Ormondo agam, is féidir liom á thuiscint maith go leor. Roghnaigh mé é de bharr spéise i gcursaí stair na gnáthdaoine - níor bhain sé leis an gcanúint a bheag nó a mhór.

>>Reading non-CO literature and making the transition from one dialect to the other is really no big deal at all.

To read a book requires a book being in existence in the first place. Nearly all of the hundreds of Irish books published between 1880 and 1945 are not available period. A handful are - incl Don Quixote.

To read Don Quixote you found a book for sale - and then you can read it. A book not for sale is difficult to read.

I am talking about hundreds of works no longer available, not one or two. With Peadar Ua Laoghaire, I mentioned his 40 books - I was not talking just about Séadna. If Don Chiochoté is available, that makes 3 of 40 incl Mo Sgéal Féin - with 37 unavailable.

I am not talking about a handful of books - I am talking about hundreds of books. There are numerous books by Peadar Ua Laoghaire, Douglas Hyde, Dinneen, An Seabhac, and many others. I would most like to get the 37 unavailable books by Ua Laoghaire, the 2 autobiographical works by Douglas Hyde (two different ones), a few things by Dinneen, and the autobiography of Gerald O'Nolan. My "must buy" list includes around 50 books I can't find anywhere but I am not talking about these 50. I am talking about hundreds of books.

I don't have a list of all IRish books printed, but I would like one. I have made a list of books from Philip O'Leary's book Gaelic Prose in the Irish Free State, and I am making a spreadsheet of Irish books by querying the National Library of Ireland database (eg doing one year at a time, and then copying all the entries in Irish).

The genres I am most interested in are novels, autobiographies and translations. I have a copy of An Seabhac's Beatha Wolfe Tone - the largest book I have ever seen in Irish - and Nioclás Tóibín's Deoraidhe Gaedhil ag Eachradh ar Bhliain 1798 - they are a flavour of the sort of fascinating translations that were done. Another book that might occasionally be found second-hand is a translation of John MItchell's prison notebooks. There are many books of a type that would probably not be done today: Saor-Phairlimint dheireannach na hÉireann, a 1938 translation by Donn Piatt of a history of Ireland 1760-1820.

How can I make this point, if I am even allowed to make it - I am talking about hundreds of books. Sure Don Ciochóté is there now - but 1-2% of the novels, autobiographies and translations published between 1880 and 1945 are now available. The other 98% are not available in any edition, whatever the script, whatever the spelling, whatever the dialectal forms used, and not available second hand either.

Why do these books come up so infrequently second-hand? Were they thrown away? Did they go into libraries and be tossed out when the books became decrepit? Or do old peope in their 80s and 90s still have them? I can't work this out.

Nearly all the books I am talking about could **ONLY** be read by photocopying them from the National Library of Ireland where copyright has run out. (ie where the author died before 1935). But they are not generally available. How can I make the point, and be understood, that I am talking about hundreds of books, possible in excess of 1000?

And (proportionally) how many English books from the same time period are still in print? Fewer yet, I should imagine.

It must be said that a fat lot of what is written and published in Irish is not worth keeping in print for 100+ years - neither for its commercial nor literary merit. Libraries still have these books; out-of-print bookshops still have them although the selection becomes increasingly spotty; but once a particular work is no longer of interest to anyone but specialists (who, it must be said, usually have access to good libraries) out of print it goes.

Same as any other language, really.

Another point is that many people today would simply not know that the Gaelic Revival had been so fruitful. How many people on this forum have even **heard** of Douglas Hyde's 2 autobiographical works before I mentioned them? Once the decision was made in mid-century not to republish books unless they were caighdeánized, they just became forgotten

Abigail,

the fact that there is a market for Séadna, Don Quixote, Peig, and other works shows that they were worth bringing back into print.

I think the Carberry editio of Séanda (modern spelling, most dialectal forms preserved) came out in 1995 or 1996 - I haven't checked. Until that happened, the book had been out of print for decades - not because people weren't interested, but because - as I have said - the sudden change of script and spelling meant that either the books had to be completely overhauled and they were not going to be published.

Actually, in the middle of the century a period occurred when some of the earlier works were fully caighdeánized, but this is an even larger job than just modernizing the spelling, and is not faithful to the original. They could, I suppose, have caighdeánized a couple of hundred works, but they didn't - they did it to a few.

Now that the pendulum has swung back, and it is considered acceptable to published in Gaeltacht Irish (think of how one of the Grianna's works were unavailable for a time because he refused to allow them to be caighdeánized), some of these works are being produced in the new spelling, but uncaighdeánized.

Quite simply, these books went out of print, not because they were rubbish, but because of the introduction of the caighdeán, which for decades either meant they had to be caighdeánized or abandoned.

I am particularly surprised by Douglas Hyde's autobiographies. He is such a key figure in Ireland's history. You would have thought his autobiography would be available, even if in English. I am a little surprised that even monoglot English speakers in Ireland don't have his autobiography to read.

The books I am talking about are:

*Mo thurus go hAmerice: Imeasg na nGaedheal Ins an Oileán Úr, 1937. An account of Dr. Hyde's visit to America, 1905-06.
*Mise agus an Connradh (go dtí 1905), 1937. An account of Dr Hyde's involvement in the early Gaelic League.

I would suggest these books are probably not worthless, Abigail - at least they would have historical interest.

One positive aspect is that maybe someone like me could transcribe them, update the spelling and print them, and make some money?? But as Douglas Hyde died in 1949, I couldn't do it until 2024 for copyright reasons.

quote:

One positive aspect is that maybe someone like me could transcribe them, update the spelling and print them, and make some money?? But as Douglas Hyde died in 1949, I couldn't do it until 2024 for copyright reasons.

I'll chime back in. They may not be in copyright. The vast majority of books before roughly 1962 in the US are copyright free. I am not familiar with the intricacies of Irish law, but I would imagine the vast bulk of Irish language works are copyright free unless they made special provisions in law to bring them back into copyright protection. This mostly would result from not fulfilling previous copyright laws or renewing copyrights. I don't know if the 50 or 70 years after death applies to all books. I'm sure there is a good copyright book in your libraries to shed light on this. I, again, doubt that most are under protection, though. Don't lose hope!

Seánw, the Republic of Ireland is not in a position to devise copyright law or make any special provisions in law. This is because it is a member of the European Union, which lays down 70%+ of the laws for all member states, including copyright. The RoI cannot override EU law.

I am wrong about 75 years. AS you said it is 70 years - and so Douglas Hyde's books leave copyright protection in 2019 - well, I have other things to do over the next decade, but it is a disappointment that libraries in Ireland would probably not allow me to photocopy such works.

Seeing as these books never appear for sale even second hand, I would like to find an owner of a copy who would let me photocopy it! If anyone on this list owns either of these books, I would like to know about it!

As you said, US copyright law is more liberal - that is why most books scanned in by Google are not viewable in Europe - it simply says that there is no Full View available - but I find that if I go on books.google.com through a proxy server (eg browser9.com), which is based in the US, I can download all the PDFs that are available State-side! Where there is a will, there is a way!

Abigail, I have been reading Gabriel Rosenstock's reasons for bringing Don Quixote back in print. See http://www.studiesirishreview.ie/articles/2002/RevArt302.htm You will see tht he does not argue at all that the work went out of print in the mid-20th century because it was of no literary value; quite the opposite.