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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (January-February) » Archive through February 18, 2010 » Awkward Sentences « Previous Next »

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 428
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 02:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I came across the following sentence in an English grammar book:
"Mrs Brown, who was worried by the traffic on the main road, took her children to school every day."
(It says Mrs Brown is the subject of both clauses which are linked with the relative pronoun "who".)
I tried to translate this into Irish in my head - as is my habit :) - but found it surprisingly difficult.

The best I can come up with is something like:
"Thug Bean de Brún, go/a raibh an trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthair ag cur imnidhe uirthi, thug sí a clann chun na scoile gach lá."
(I think I'm right in repeating the verb in that way.)



Here's a similar type of sentence which I'd find even more awkward:
"The thief injured Pádraig, whom I met last year, with a shotgun."
My attempt:
"Ghortuigh an gadaidhe Pádraig gur/ar bhuaileas leis anuiridh ghortuigh sé le gunna gráin é."


Am I anywhere near accuracy with these?

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 638
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 04:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I suppose the ideal way to translate from one language to another is to extract the meaning from the realm of the source language, elevate the whole thing into an abstract, languageless realm, and then let it drop down into the the realm of the target language, thereby allowing it to take on its natural configuration in that language. Easier said than done!

I would reconfigure the first sentence:

Thug Bean de Brún a clann chun na scoile gach lá de bharr í a bheith buartha faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthair.

After all, I would say that there is an implicit cause/effect relationship in the English sentence.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Joe
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 56
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But Ormondo, it's not at all obvious to me from the original English that Mrs Browne took her children to school because she was worried about the traffic. Being worried about the traffic might merely be an extra bit of information and, maybe, irrelevant information that we are given about Mrs Browne.

I'd go for, "Thug Bean de Brún, a bhí imníoch faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthar, a clann chun na scoile gach lá".

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 639
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 05:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Strictly speaking, I would agree with you: any judge worth his wig would forbid a jury from drawing any conclusions from the juxtaposition of these two pieces of information in one sentence.

But is it not a bit artificial putting two unrelated pieces of information into one and the same sentence? And pointless, other than for grammatical (or legalistic) fun and games?

(Message edited by ormondo on February 14, 2010)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Paploo
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Username: Paploo

Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Perhaps it means something along the lines of "Mrs. Brown took her children to school everyday despite worrying about traffic on the main road"

Where the traffic isn't the reason she drives her children to work but just a note as to how dedicated she is to driving her children to school.


Might be playing a little bit of a Devil's advocate here...

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Joe
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Username: Joe

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 08:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Thóg Bean de Brún a cuid páistí chun na scoile gach lá d'ainneoin go raibh imní uirthi faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhothar". How does that grab ya, Paploo?

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 222
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 09:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My feeble effort:

Gortaíodh Padraig, ar a chas mé anuraidh, ag gadaí le gunna gráin.

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 430
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I'd go for, "Thug Bean de Brún, a bhí imníoch faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthar, a clann chun na scoile gach lá".


It certainly translates the basic meaning of the English sentence but I think a repetition of the verb is necessary when a clause of that type and/or length follows the subject -
"Thug Bean de Brún, a bhí imnidheach faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthair, thug sí a clann chun na scoile gach lá." ?

quote:

I suppose the ideal way to translate from one language to another....

...Thug Bean de Brún a clann chun na scoile gach lá de bharr í a bheith buartha faoin trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthair.

After all, I would say that there is an implicit cause/effect relationship in the English sentence.


I should have mentioned that this variant of the sentence is included in the book ("Mrs Brown took her children to school every day because she was worried by the traffic on the main road") and is clearly distinguished from the sentence in the O.P. It emphasizes her reason for taking her children to school.

quote:

Perhaps it means something along the lines of "Mrs. Brown took her children to school everyday despite worrying about traffic on the main road"


No I don't think that's necessarily implied in the sentence at all.

quote:

My feeble effort:

Gortaíodh Padraig, ar a chas mé anuraidh, ag gadaí le gunna gráin.


That's a good way of getting around the difficulties of that sentence. More concise too.


Thanks all for the input.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Joe -
"..d'ainneoin.." - means "in spite of"
which would mean she took her kids to school in spite of her being afraid of the traffic.


If you wanted to keep the original clauses in the English sentence. -
"Tugann Bean de Brún, a raibh an trácht ar an bpríomhbhóthair ag cur imní uirthi, a cuid gasúir ag an scoil gach lá."

but better might be-

Tugann Bean de Brún a cuid gasúir ag an scoil gach lá toisc go gcuireann an trácht imní uirthi.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 648
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 07:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's my tuppence worth:
quote:

Mrs Brown, who was worried by the traffic on the main road, took her children to school every day.

The words "every day" put the verbs into the Aimsir Ghnáthchaite / Habitual Past Tense: so this might suit:

Thugadh Bean de Brún a páistí chuig an scoil gach lá [mar] chuireadh trácht an bhóthair mhóir imní uirthi.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that although English may use numerous subordinate clauses in one sentence the Irish translator should think of the native speakers who are unlikely to follow such contortions. Single sentences would probably be clearer in Irish. Despite that our much revered master of the sentence in Irish prose, An tAthair Peadar Ó Laoghaire, produced some amazingly long sentences in his translation from the Latin of Catalina(??).

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 452
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 06:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here is my take:

1. Mrs Brown, who was worried by the traffic on the main road, took her children to school every day.

Bean Brown (nó Brún nó Mhic an Bhreithiún, etc.) a bhí imní uirthi faoin trácht [trom] ar an bhealach mór, thug sí (nó sise féin) a cuid clann chun na scoile gach lá.

2. The thief injured Pádraig, whom I met last year, with a shotgun. (This one is ackward no matter what. The sentence needs restructuring in both languages to sound less ambiguous.)

Ghortaigh an gadaí Pádraig ar chuir mé aithne air anuraidh le gunna gráin.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Brídmhór
Member
Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 50
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 05:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

SeanW said -
Ghortaigh an gadaí Pádraig ar chuir mé aithne air anuraidh le gunna gráin.

You need commas or better brackets to make the meaning clear. But in speech it would still be ambigious.

For clear speech -
Ghortaigh an gadaí Pádraig le gunna gráin, chuir mé aithne ar Phádraig anuraidh.



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