Well, comrades, in the deep dark world of the Standard, questions sometimes arise that do not deliver answers easily. Obviously, some changes good, some others ...? So I named my blog "Trí Scáthán Go Doiléir". As I go further down the rabbit hole, I begin to get the sense that "trí scáthán" would come off as "three mirrors" than "through a mirror". These seem to be the forms that are actually used:

Tré scáthán.
Tríd scáthán.
Fríd scáthán.

Trí seems to be based on a classical form no longer used. Except for school children, is this form used at all? To top things off, DIL has tríd and fríd under separate listings, but aren't they derived from the same root? I trully am seeing go doiléir ...

You left out thríd which is used extensively in Conamara.

In the context of your blog name or similar there is no ambiguity with trí. (apart from anything else trí scatháin would be plural!)

I can't be categorical but I think it is used in writing a lot.

It is a heavily used word, so I'd expect variations.

As far as I know DIL lists all words and doesn't group them by origin.

But I can't find fríd in DIL at all. Or do you mean Ó Dónaill? If so, the same applies - variants are listed as they are spelled with a cross reference to the cáighdéan form.

Looking at the DIL article on frí it seems to me to be a completely different word than trí.

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=ADV&searchText=%20frí&HIGH=%20frí&respag e=0&resperpage=10&Fuzzy=0&bhcp=1


I'll have to check what Ó Dónaill says about fríd.

"In the context of your blog name or similar there is no ambiguity with trí. (apart from anything else trí scatháin would be plural!)", quote from Aonghus

Are you sure about this Aonghus? Normally in Irish when counting the singular form of the noun is use. So it's "scathán amháin, dhá scathán, trí scathán". Am I right?

Sin an cleachtadh atá agam, a Joe, ach measaim go bhfuil an rogha ann. I gcomhthéacs cheist Sheáin, sílim go bhfuil an cheart agat.

quote:

Am I right?

Yes. It appears that I am old fashioned. And that I used the correct form but for the wrong reason!

quote:

Sí an foirm uatha den ainmfhocal sa tuiseal ginideach an fhoirm a úsáidtear le bunuimhreacha i
gcónaí, mar shampla dhá fhuinneog seachas dhá fuinneoga.

quote:

Seanúsáid na foirme iolra sa stair: Is nós réasúnta nua é an nós an uimhir uatha a úsáid. Fiú
ag tús na fichiú aoise bhí sé de rogha ag cainteoirí an fhoirm iolra a úsáid freisin, agus
feictear go leor iarsmaí den nós sin sa lá atá inniu ann, go háirithe in ainmneacha dílse: na
Ceithre Cúirteanna a deirtear, mar shampla, cé go mbeadh na Ceithre Chúirt níos cirte
de réir rialacha na teanga anois. (Foirgneamh stairiúil i mBaile Átha Cliath iad na Ceithre
Cúirteanna.)

From MBM's wonderful pamphlet on numbers.

http://www.cainteoir.com/cainteoir_files/gramadach/Uimhreacha.pdf

---

But Trí scathán go doiléir is still unambiguous because of the "go" and the nominative.

Aonghus, I have a vague memory of seeing an old Irish five-pound note from the 1960's some time ago and being struck by the fact that the words "Cuig Puint" appeared on it.If so, it seems that the nomnitive plural (or genitive singular) was in official use for counting in times past.

I've gone in to the Central Bank of Ireland website under "previous banknotes etc" http://www.centralbank.ie/frame_main.asp?pg=ncn_prev.asp&nv=ncn_nav.asp, checked the images of the 1928-1975 banknotes and I think I can just about confirm that.

Your eyesight might be better than mine.

(Message edited by Joe on February 10, 2010)

That pamphlet is excellent Aonghus but I have to now admit to being a bit confused. Is "fuinneoige" not the tuiseal ginideach? I had my urús and séimhiús all sorted out after numbers and now I am faced with the tuiseal ginideach also! The usually reliable Gramadach na Gaeilge site makes no mention of it and I thought I only had to lenite and eclipse the nominative singular as appropriate (subject to the ever-present exceptions!). I had come acros the older practice of using the plural but this is new to me. A bit of help would be great!

My grammar breaks down if I think too closely about it.

But an Foclóir Beag backs you up.

Maybe MBM will be passing by and educate us further!

And on further reflection it probably is "Trí scáthán" for three mirrors. Sorry for adding to the confusion.

It was worth it for the spectacular pun.

3-10 : singular when unity is expressed, e.g., "eleven apples" aon úll déag

When the plural has two forms, the short form is generally used (usually like the singular).

>Are you sure about this Aonghus? Normally in Irish when counting the singular form of the noun is use. So it's "scathán amháin, dhá scathán, trí scathán". Am I right?

No. That is but one system - the new one. The traditional counting system still exists too - and that is:

1. One: takes the singular
2. Two: takes the dual (=the dative singular)
3. Three and above: takes the plural

fri, le and re are three prepositions that were merged into le in modern Irish. fri can be translated "through" in some circumstances, just as "le" can. There is an example in the DIL under anúair: "rith frí ghealtacht, running through panic" - but this is not the same "through" as "through a glass darkly".

Aonghus,

More research into Irish usage on this question is required. The PDF you linked to provides the example of dhá fhuinneog. I wonder what percentage of native speakers in the Gaeltacht say that? As the Connemara form is fuinneoig with a slender g anyway, so it would be dhá fhuinneoig. And I was told in Cork that most datives are defunct (eg mnaoi, ló etc), except those feminine ones that slenderise the ending in the dative singular, which is equivalent to the dual number. So: dhá fhinneoig (the f is slender in Cork in this word: finneog in the baseform).

So we definitely have:

dhá fhuinneoig
dhá fhinneoig

I am still trying to find out if any speakers of Irish say dhá fhuinneog. I wonder whether Lughaidh could tell us if the Ultonians say dhá fhuinneoig or dhá fhuinneog or anything else?

This sentence in my pamphlet about numbers is wrong:

Sí an foirm uatha den ainmfhocal sa tuiseal ginideach an fhoirm a úsáidtear le bunuimhreacha i gcónaí [...]

It should say sa tuiseal ainmneach. It must have been some kind of Freudian slip. Apologies for the confusion and thanks to Aonghus for pointing that out to me. The corrected version is now online.

I have only skimmed this conversation but I do understand that there seems to be some debate as to which form of the noun is to be used after numbers. Let me say that my pamphlet, while starting from the simple statement that "one uses the nominative singular", later goes on to explore the question in more detail. There are indeed cases when a form different from the nominative singular is used, sometimes optionally and sometimes obligatorily, such as "dhá láimh", "trí bliana". In my analysis, this form is neither the genitive nor the plural (although it probably originates from one of them historically), it is something I simply like to call "the counting form".

quote:

It was worth it for the spectacular pun.

Ouch. Níor thug mé an imeartas focail faoi ndeara fiú. Agus do cheann chomh holc céanna.

Mar a dúirt an té a dúirt "A punann is the lowest form of wheat"

Ón dTobar:
trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

2 - 2 as 7: abairt 631, ag toiseacht ar lch 33, líne 15

“Craith thú féin suas agus bíodh trí splaideóg chéille
agat.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

3 - 3 as 7: abairt 1023, ag toiseacht ar lch 52, líne 9

Tá tú le trí bliadhna mar bheithea gheall ar chogadh a
chur ar an bhórd.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

6 - 6 as 7: abairt 1312, ag toiseacht ar lch 67, líne 22

A Labhrais óig bhoicht, mo thrí thruaighe naoi n-uaire do
chiall anocht.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

7 - 7 as 7: abairt 1954, ag toiseacht ar lch 101, líne 8

Annsin leigeadh síos an chónair agus chaith an sagart trí
h-urchair na sluaiste uirthi.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

1 - 1 as 23: abairt 15, ag toiseacht ar lch 2, líne 25

Sgairt sé ceann amháin trí h-uaire, agus a ghlór ag áirdiú
achan uair, acht ní thug duine ar bith freagar air.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

3 - 3 as 23: abairt 141, ag toiseacht ar lch 13, líne 15

“Tá” arsa duine eile, “béidh trí choiscéim coiligh air, lá
Nodlag Beag.”


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

8 - 8 as 23: abairt 594, ag toiseacht ar lch 48, líne 17

Dóigheadh cnódh-annaí ar leic na teineadh, cuireadh cuthóg
shnáth san áithe, agus nigheadh léinte ag bun thrí
gcríochann.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

10 - 10 as 23: abairt 890, ag toiseacht ar lch 74, líne 9

Fuair mé trí leitireacha ó'n doctúir, agus bhagair sé ins
an cheann dheireannach mo chánadh mur' dtugainn isteach an
leanbh Diardaoin.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

17 - 17 as 23: abairt 1465, ag toiseacht ar lch 121, líne 4

Bhí trí cheath-ramhadh córach leó an bealach a rabh an
ghaoth a' teacht.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

23 - 23 as 23: abairt 2973, ag toiseacht ar lch 236, líne 23

Agus ba í an ofráil í ba mhó a fuarthas ins na trí
poibleacha le cuimhne na ndaoiní.


trí
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Micheál Ruadh

3 - 3 as 9: abairt 583, ag toiseacht ar lch 29, líne 6

“Tá,” arsa Donnchadh, “diúlach a bhí thiar annseo i
Mullach-dearg a bhí i n'am féin ar an fhear a bfheárr sna
trí phobal.

---

Inconclusive, I'm afraid.

Ó Dónaill lists fríd as a variant of trí.

Is le deanaí a thosaigh mé ag léamh Rotha Mór an tSaoil, inste ag Micí Mac Gabhann. Usaidtear 'fríd' in áit 'tríd' go minic. Sa réamhrá, cur i gcás, fuair mé an abairt seo:

quote:

Chuala siadsan cuid de minic go leor cheana, ach bhí meas an tsaoil agamsa air, agus ar an ábhar gur sheanchas beo é agus go deachaigh an seanchaí é féin fríd iomlán a mbíodh sé ag caint air, dar liom gurbh fhiú a shábháil agus a chur i dtaiscidh le sríbhinní Choimisiún an Bhéaloideasa

Go bhfios dom sin an nós Ultach.