Author |
Message |
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 09:23 pm: |
|
I am struggling with: Tiocfaidh Seághan ua Luasa anso agus gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis. Why "agus gur"? Why not "agus is cuma nó watch..."? I know the sentence means "he will come here with his two eyes like watches". It is just the sudden "go" that throws me, as it is a dependent clause not dependent on anything. Would you read in a missing verb? eg "agus (déarfadh duine) gur cuma..."? |
|
An_chilleasrach
Member Username: An_chilleasrach
Post Number: 211 Registered: 01-2009
| Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 07:17 pm: |
|
I don't really have an answer but "is" sounds a bit off with the verb in the future tense. It would convey the impression that his eyes are always like watches - "he will come here and his eyes are like watches". The "go" somehow suggests that his eyes will be like watches when he arrives. |
|
Taidhgín
Member Username: Taidhgín
Post Number: 643 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 07:54 pm: |
|
I think you are right to imagine "déarfá" before the "gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis." The main verb is in the future tense "Tiocfaidh" and since "is" doesn't have a separate form for the future this may be a way of avoiding it. If you are reading a text I suggest you should gloss over difficulties like this and try and get the gist of the story as best you can and as quickly as you can. If stop and make a major issue of every discrepancy you will miss the pleasure of the story and find yourself -- like me and the rest of us -- concentrating on the medium rather than the message. |
|
Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 1204 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 06:19 am: |
|
Look at these two sentences: Is é mo mhian í a fheiceáil aris. Is é mo mhian gur mise a gheobhaidh í. and then at these two: D'éirigh sé ón laib agus é ag gáire. D'éirigh sé ón laib agus gur léir gur chuma leis. They're not exactly the same thing grammatically, but they're similar. Maybe someone else will be along with a clearer/more technical explanation! Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
|
|
Bodhrán
Member Username: Bodhrán
Post Number: 87 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 12:10 pm: |
|
....and the rest of us? Labhair féin, le do thoil . Is brea liom d'intinn a dhíiriú ar árhair seo. One of the things that makes this forum so interesting and beneficial is the fact that there is focus on subject matters like this one. It really helps learners like me to get exposure to topics like the one brought up here and continued by you and other advanced members like An Chilleasrach and Abigail. David FRC-GRMA (Message edited by bodhrán on February 06, 2010) Find Irish Classes and Events in Your Area at https://www.irishbooksandgifts.com/Events_and_Links.html
|
|
Taidhgín
Member Username: Taidhgín
Post Number: 644 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:30 pm: |
|
Gabh mo leithscéal, a Bhodhráin. Labhród ar mo shon féin feasta. Ag déanamh grinn a bhíos. Ag smaoineamh ar an leabhar "An Béal Bocht" a bhíos. Níor labhair Gaeil na Feise faoi rud ar bith ach an Ghaeilge. Bímse ar thóir cruinneas na Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. In case anyone finds the above tough going and recognising this is the "General Discussion (Irish and English)" section I'll add approximate translations: Gabh mo leithscéal, a Bhodhráin. I apologise, Bodhrán. Labhród ar mo shon féin feasta. I shall speak on my own behalf from now on. Ag déanamh grinn a bhíos. I was poking fun. Ag smaoineamh ar an leabhar "An Béal Bocht" a bhíos. I was thinking of the book "An Béal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth). Níor labhair Gaeil na Feise faoi rud ar bith ach an Ghaeilge. The Irish-speakers at the Feis (cultural assembly) spoke of nothing except Irish. Bímse ar thóir cruinneas na Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. I am seeking to learn accurate Irish. FRC. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9677 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:45 pm: |
|
Ar mhaithe le David: Labhród is a dialect form of "labhróidh mé" "Is breá liom dm'intinn a dhíriú ar ábhair mar seo" Cuireadh ceist ar de Bhaldraithe céard a bhí ar bun aige tamaill roimh a bhás. "Ag foghlaim Gaeilge" a fhreagra! There is a tricky balance to be struck between understanding the nuances of a text completely, and enjoying the story. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9678 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:50 pm: |
|
BTW, Ó Donaill says that gur is the dependent affirmative of is. If I knew what that meant, it might clarify the original question! |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9679 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 02:00 pm: |
|
gur [aimsir láithreach, foirm dhearfach spleách][aimsir chaite, foirm dhearfach spleách][modh coinníollach, foirm dhearfach spleách] Seo an abairt i gcomhtéacs http://wikisource.org/wiki/Mo_Sg%C3%A9al_F%C3%A9in/8 http://wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Mo_sgeal_fein.djvu/70 |
|
Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 669 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 05:41 am: |
|
(1-a) Is é mo mhian í a fheiceáil arís. (1-b) Is é mo mhian gur mise a gheobhaidh í. (2-a) D'éirigh sé ón láib agus é ag gáire. (2-b) D'éirigh sé ón láib agus gur léir gur chuma leis. In technical terms, you juxtapose, on the one hand, non-finite vs finite embedded clauses (a vs b of each pair) and, on the other, arguments vs non-arguments of the main predicate (1st vs 2nd pair). In the 1st pair, the "é" pronoun is a place-holder for the (extraposed) embedded clauses "í a fheiceáil arís" and "gur mise a gheobhaidh í", the arguments of "mo mhian". The clause "í a fheiceáil arís" is non-finite because it lacks a finite verb which could be argued to be present in "gur mise..." in the form of a covert present-tense copula. In the 2nd pair, "agus" appears to be introducing an adjunct clause (i.e. such that it is not an argument of the main predicate "d'éirigh"). Again, "agus é ag gáire" is a non-finite clause whereas "agus gur léir gur chuma leis" is a finite clause (the same reasoning applying here as for 1-b mutatis mutandis). Apparently, "agus" introducing an embedded finite clause conveys an adverbial meaning of manner and degree (cf. "tá sé chomh láidir agus go bhfuil faitíos agam roimhe"). In the sentence "Tiocfaidh Seághan ua Luasa anso agus gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis.", the function of "nó" remains unclear to me. (Message edited by Peter on February 07, 2010) 'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'
|
|
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 11:50 am: |
|
Thank you Abigail. I think that did clear it up. Just as "agus é ag gáire" is a sort of reduced construction without a main verb, so "agus gur..." is too. |
|
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 12:22 am: |
|
Thank you. Your answers made sense. Taidhgín, I want to notice stylistic things - as with most books in Irish, they are read largely to improve one's Irish rather than for the "content" alone - I was reading Peter O' Leary's "Gaelic Prose in the Irish Free State" and I understand this has always been a heavily debated thing: should you read something you would otherwise not read just because it is in good Irish. Anyway, I want to assimiliate message AND medium. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9680 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:21 am: |
|
@Peter "Is cuma nó X é" it is the same as X. Féach Ó Dónaill faoi "cuma2". |
|
Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 671 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 01:39 pm: |
|
GRMA! D'fhoghlaim mé rud nua inniu. 'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'
|
|
Bodhrán
Member Username: Bodhrán
Post Number: 88 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 06:28 pm: |
|
quote:There is a tricky balance to be struck between understanding the nuances of a text completely, and enjoying the story. The way to learn a language is to really study it, not just gloss over the nuances to enjoy the story. Enjoying the story will come later. Living in an area where there are literally millions of people have either learned or are learning a new language it's very apparent to me that the ones who learn the new language are the ones who put off the enjoyment of the story until later. I can't understand why some folks, who should know better, feel the need to dispense with such philosophical advice about enjoying a story over the pursuit of learning the language. After all, isn't this a learner's site? It's called Daltaí for a reason. Perhaps there should be a companion site to this one called enjoyers.com. It could be for those people who don't want to really learn Irish, but want to be pampered while enjoying themselves. Find Irish Classes and Events in Your Area at https://www.irishbooksandgifts.com/Events_and_Links.html
|
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 431 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:09 pm: |
|
Someone once gave me this advice for learning: Read every book three times. First time: Take note of expressions you don't know, and look things up in the dictionary. Second time: Read while following the plot and understanding the story. Third time: Read to judge its literary value. Add: But you have to enjoy something, or you'll probably give up sooner or later. Enjoy the process, enjoy the learning, enjoy the story. (Message edited by seánw on February 07, 2010) I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
An_chilleasrach
Member Username: An_chilleasrach
Post Number: 214 Registered: 01-2009
| Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:18 am: |
|
I am enormously flattered to be bracketed with Abigail as an "advanced member" but nothing could be further from the truth. I would be a long way behind her and many others on this site but I have learned a lot from them. I am a "message rather than the medium" kinda guy and I find the important stuff becomes embedded unbeknownst to myself. I get loads of practice talking to the children and to my friends so things get reinforced through usage. Ní féidir liom déanamh dá n-uireasa (fuair mé an nath sin ó Phadraig Ó Standún!). |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 9685 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:48 am: |
|
David, I was cautioning against becoming so preoccupied with looking up and understanding each and every nuance or phrase, that one becomes bogged down. I believe that the 80:20 rule applies here as elsewhere. |
|
An_chilleasrach
Member Username: An_chilleasrach
Post Number: 216 Registered: 01-2009
| Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 08:13 am: |
|
quote\{Phadraig Ó Standún} Níl aon "ó" in ainm an Standúnaigh (an duirt mé nach bhfuil na sonraí tabhachtach?!). |
|