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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (January-February) » Archive through February 09, 2010 » A clause starting with "go" « Previous Next »

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 09:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am struggling with: Tiocfaidh Seághan ua Luasa anso agus gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis.

Why "agus gur"? Why not "agus is cuma nó watch..."?

I know the sentence means "he will come here with his two eyes like watches". It is just the sudden "go" that throws me, as it is a dependent clause not dependent on anything.

Would you read in a missing verb? eg "agus (déarfadh duine) gur cuma..."?

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 211
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 07:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't really have an answer but "is" sounds a bit off with the verb in the future tense. It would convey the impression that his eyes are always like watches - "he will come here and his eyes are like watches". The "go" somehow suggests that his eyes will be like watches when he arrives.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 643
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 07:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think you are right to imagine "déarfá" before the "gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis." The main verb is in the future tense "Tiocfaidh" and since "is" doesn't have a separate form for the future this may be a way of avoiding it.

If you are reading a text I suggest you should gloss over difficulties like this and try and get the gist of the story as best you can and as quickly as you can. If stop and make a major issue of every discrepancy you will miss the pleasure of the story and find yourself -- like me and the rest of us -- concentrating on the medium rather than the message.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 06:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Look at these two sentences:
Is é mo mhian í a fheiceáil aris.
Is é mo mhian gur mise a gheobhaidh í.

and then at these two:
D'éirigh sé ón laib agus é ag gáire.
D'éirigh sé ón laib agus gur léir gur chuma leis.

They're not exactly the same thing grammatically, but they're similar. Maybe someone else will be along with a clearer/more technical explanation!

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Bodhrán
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Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 87
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

....and the rest of us?

Labhair féin, le do thoil . Is brea liom d'intinn a dhíiriú ar árhair seo. One of the things that makes this forum so interesting and beneficial is the fact that there is focus on subject matters like this one. It really helps learners like me to get exposure to topics like the one brought up here and continued by you and other advanced members like An Chilleasrach and Abigail.

David FRC-GRMA

(Message edited by bodhrán on February 06, 2010)

Find Irish Classes and Events in Your Area at
https://www.irishbooksandgifts.com/Events_and_Links.html

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 644
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gabh mo leithscéal, a Bhodhráin. Labhród ar mo shon féin feasta. Ag déanamh grinn a bhíos. Ag smaoineamh ar an leabhar "An Béal Bocht" a bhíos. Níor labhair Gaeil na Feise faoi rud ar bith ach an Ghaeilge. Bímse ar thóir cruinneas na Gaeilge a fhoghlaim.

In case anyone finds the above tough going and recognising this is the "General Discussion (Irish and English)" section I'll add approximate translations:
Gabh mo leithscéal, a Bhodhráin. I apologise, Bodhrán.
Labhród ar mo shon féin feasta. I shall speak on my own behalf from now on.
Ag déanamh grinn a bhíos. I was poking fun.
Ag smaoineamh ar an leabhar "An Béal Bocht" a bhíos. I was thinking of the book "An Béal Bocht" (The Poor Mouth).
Níor labhair Gaeil na Feise faoi rud ar bith ach an Ghaeilge. The Irish-speakers at the Feis (cultural assembly) spoke of nothing except Irish.
Bímse ar thóir cruinneas na Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. I am seeking to learn accurate Irish.

FRC.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9677
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ar mhaithe le David:

Labhród is a dialect form of "labhróidh mé"

"Is breá liom dm'intinn a dhíriú ar ábhair mar seo"

Cuireadh ceist ar de Bhaldraithe céard a bhí ar bun aige tamaill roimh a bhás. "Ag foghlaim Gaeilge" a fhreagra!

There is a tricky balance to be struck between understanding the nuances of a text completely, and enjoying the story.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9678
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BTW, Ó Donaill says that gur is the dependent affirmative of is.

If I knew what that meant, it might clarify the original question!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9679
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 02:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

gur [aimsir láithreach, foirm dhearfach spleách][aimsir chaite, foirm dhearfach spleách][modh coinníollach, foirm dhearfach spleách]

Seo an abairt i gcomhtéacs

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Mo_Sg%C3%A9al_F%C3%A9in/8

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Mo_sgeal_fein.djvu/70

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 669
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 05:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

(1-a) Is é mo mhian í a fheiceáil arís.
(1-b) Is é mo mhian gur mise a gheobhaidh í.

(2-a) D'éirigh sé ón láib agus é ag gáire.
(2-b) D'éirigh sé ón láib agus gur léir gur chuma leis.

In technical terms, you juxtapose, on the one hand, non-finite vs finite embedded clauses (a vs b of each pair) and, on the other, arguments vs non-arguments of the main predicate (1st vs 2nd pair).

In the 1st pair, the "é" pronoun is a place-holder for the (extraposed) embedded clauses "í a fheiceáil arís" and "gur mise a gheobhaidh í", the arguments of "mo mhian". The clause "í a fheiceáil arís" is non-finite because it lacks a finite verb which could be argued to be present in "gur mise..." in the form of a covert present-tense copula.

In the 2nd pair, "agus" appears to be introducing an adjunct clause (i.e. such that it is not an argument of the main predicate "d'éirigh"). Again, "agus é ag gáire" is a non-finite clause whereas "agus gur léir gur chuma leis" is a finite clause (the same reasoning applying here as for 1-b mutatis mutandis).

Apparently, "agus" introducing an embedded finite clause conveys an adverbial meaning of manner and degree (cf. "tá sé chomh láidir agus go bhfuil faitíos agam roimhe").

In the sentence "Tiocfaidh Seághan ua Luasa anso agus gur cuma nó watch gach aon tsúil leis.", the function of "nó" remains unclear to me.

(Message edited by Peter on February 07, 2010)

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you Abigail. I think that did clear it up. Just as "agus é ag gáire" is a sort of reduced construction without a main verb, so "agus gur..." is too.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 12:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you. Your answers made sense.

Taidhgín, I want to notice stylistic things - as with most books in Irish, they are read largely to improve one's Irish rather than for the "content" alone - I was reading Peter O' Leary's "Gaelic Prose in the Irish Free State" and I understand this has always been a heavily debated thing: should you read something you would otherwise not read just because it is in good Irish. Anyway, I want to assimiliate message AND medium.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9680
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

@Peter

"Is cuma nó X é" it is the same as X. Féach Ó Dónaill faoi "cuma2".

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 671
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 01:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA! D'fhoghlaim mé rud nua inniu.

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Bodhrán
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Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 88
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 06:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There is a tricky balance to be struck between understanding the nuances of a text completely, and enjoying the story.

The way to learn a language is to really study it, not just gloss over the nuances to enjoy the story. Enjoying the story will come later. Living in an area where there are literally millions of people have either learned or are learning a new language it's very apparent to me that the ones who learn the new language are the ones who put off the enjoyment of the story until later.

I can't understand why some folks, who should know better, feel the need to dispense with such philosophical advice about enjoying a story over the pursuit of learning the language. After all, isn't this a learner's site? It's called Daltaí for a reason.

Perhaps there should be a companion site to this one called enjoyers.com. It could be for those people who don't want to really learn Irish, but want to be pampered while enjoying themselves.

Find Irish Classes and Events in Your Area at
https://www.irishbooksandgifts.com/Events_and_Links.html

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 431
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 07:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Someone once gave me this advice for learning:

Read every book three times.

First time: Take note of expressions you don't know, and look things up in the dictionary.

Second time: Read while following the plot and understanding the story.

Third time: Read to judge its literary value.


Add: But you have to enjoy something, or you'll probably give up sooner or later. Enjoy the process, enjoy the learning, enjoy the story.

(Message edited by seánw on February 07, 2010)

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 214
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am enormously flattered to be bracketed with Abigail as an "advanced member" but nothing could be further from the truth. I would be a long way behind her and many others on this site but I have learned a lot from them.

I am a "message rather than the medium" kinda guy and I find the important stuff becomes embedded unbeknownst to myself. I get loads of practice talking to the children and to my friends so things get reinforced through usage. Ní féidir liom déanamh dá n-uireasa (fuair mé an nath sin ó Phadraig Ó Standún!).

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9685
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

David,

I was cautioning against becoming so preoccupied with looking up and understanding each and every nuance or phrase, that one becomes bogged down. I believe that the 80:20 rule applies here as elsewhere.

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 216
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 08:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote\{Phadraig Ó Standún}

Níl aon "ó" in ainm an Standúnaigh (an duirt mé nach bhfuil na sonraí tabhachtach?!).



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