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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (January-February) » Archive through February 09, 2010 » An focal 'Sular' « Previous Next »

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Seamás91
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Username: Seamás91

Post Number: 166
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 10:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

taim ag léamh an leabhar 'Dunmharú Sa Daingean', agus tháinig me (across) an focal 'sular'. what does sular mean if i may ask? My guess was 'before'. Aon duine eile?

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 98
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 11:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Before or 'lest.More usually written 'sula'.Maybe sular in front of vowel or different tense? Don't quote me.

Funny enough I'm trying to write 'came across' or stumbled upon' and my mind's a blank!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3376
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sular is the form of "sula" before most verbs in the preterite tense.

Sula n-éistim = before I listen
Sular éist mé = before I listened

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Curiousfinn
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Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 367
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tharraingt siar. B)

(Message edited by curiousfinn on February 02, 2010)

Tine, siúil liom!

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 633
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 02:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lghaidh, a chara, what is the preterite tense in Irish? Is it the "aimsir caite?" (aimsir chaite?) or past tense? I am not familiar with the term.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3377
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 04:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Preterite = aimsir chaite.
I didn't use the word "past" because there's a "past habitual" too... so it's better to use preterite & past habitual than past & past habitual, so people aren't confused...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The preterite Lughaidh mentioned is the aimsir chaite.

I am not sure about the use of the term preterite - which as far as I know (please enlighten if wrong) refers to a very completed past tense.

Eg in Spanish:

preterite habló - spoke
imperfect hablaba - was speaking (emphasis on the continuity in the past)
perfect he hablado - have spoken (emphasis on the present relevance of the action)

But I don't think the distinction between "do ghlanas" and "do ghlanainn" is one of preterite vs. imperfect. "Do ghlanainn" is specifically emphasising the habitual nature of the past tense (do ghlanaimís an tigh gach lá: "we would clean the house every day back then, we used to clean the house every day when I was a child etc") and a trawl through Irish literature would emphasise the fact that imperfect uses are frequently covered by the aimsir chaite.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3378
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 01:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree with you but if you say "past" and "past habitual" it may be confusing...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 809
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But I don't think the distinction between "do ghlanas" and "do ghlanainn" is one of preterite vs. imperfect. "Do ghlanainn" is specifically emphasising the habitual nature of the past tense (do ghlanaimís an tigh gach lá: "we would clean the house every day back then, we used to clean the house every day when I was a child etc") and a trawl through Irish literature would emphasise the fact that imperfect uses are frequently covered by the aimsir chaite.


Cross-linguistic terminology is always an imperfect fit. Even among such closely-related languages as the Romance varieties, the use of the tense labeled "imperfect" doesn't match up 100%. In German the terms Imperfekt and Präteritum have both been applied to the selfsame tense! (I.e. a simple past that contrasts with the compound perfect only in northern colloquial varieties.) So I don't think there's any real confusion introduced through calling the Irish non-habitual past tense "preterite", and I agree with Lughaidh that it could help avoid confusion with the past habitual.

(Though getting the average learner to comprehend even the most basic grammatical terminology is probably a losing battle in any case. I recently got into a disagreement with schoolgirl over the use of caite and her response was "but I'm using it in the free tense...." I still have no idea what she meant by that.)

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 428
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 06:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Funny enough I'm trying to write 'came across' or 'stumbled upon' and my mind's a blank!



teacht ar rud de thaisme

quote:

I recently got into a disagreement with schoolgirl over the use of caite and her response was "but I'm using it in the free tense...."



The autonomous, or impersonal? briathar saor?

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 04:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can someone please tell me what "coupla focla Gaeilge" means. Thank you.

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 04:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Cúpla focal" (roughly pronounced coop-la fuckle) literally means "a couple of words". "Gaeilge" is the name of the language - "Irish" if you are referring to it in English.

However, the term "cúpla focal" is really shorthand for having some ability to speak Irish. It is readily understood in Ireland and is often used when speaking English - "do you have the cúpla focal?" or similar. There is no need to add "Gaeilge" as that is understood.

Now that you know what it means, I think you are morally obliged to obtain the cúpla focal yourself.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 642
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 01:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh says
quote:

I agree with you but if you say "past" and "past habitual" it may be confusing...


What do the Irish say?

There is also a continuous present tense "An Aimsir Ghnáthláithreach" which is under threat of extinction by learners. It is only obvious in one verb "bí" - "táim" = I am; and "bím" = "I do be" / "I beeees" :-) No wonder our English is quaint.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 03:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

aimsir chaite - past tense

aimsir ghnáthchaite - habitual past tense



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