A quick thought.

Ever since the dawn of the internet, the nature of the Irish spoken outside of the Gaeltachts has always been a major topic of conversation.

I have even read people with no Irish lambasting Irish as spoken in say Dublin.

But this site is for those learning Irish.

If you only want to speak Irish to native speakers and not to fellow learners, fine, you can click 'back' on your screen now.

However, if you want to use your Irish as much as possible you will encounter a range of people and a range of Gaelics - you need to be opened minded and have a good knowledge of Irish before you can judge this spoken Irish.

The oft quoted senario that the people of the Galltacht speak bad Irish and the people of the Gaeltacht speak perfect Irish is a complete myth.

Does anyone think that Sharon speaks poor Irish? What about Alan Titley?

You will find a range of different interpretations of Irish. Be open minded.

You will find native speakers speaking an impoverised form of Irish and you will find non-natives speaking almost perfect Irish - it depends, it is not black and white, no matter what anyone online says.

You will hear urban forms of Irish, but this does not always means heavily anglicised, often urban speakers will use words and idioms lost in the Gaeltacht. Remember also that the sounds of a language and 'accent' are not the same thing.

You will hear standardised Irish, near perfect impressions of Acaill Irish, extincted dialects revived, hybridisation with Scottish Gaelic, 'Jailtacht' speech, all Irelands dialects mixed together and yes, pigin Irish.

A living and vibrant language.

Perhaps there are those who would wish that Irish could be buried 'pure' and with dignity. But the are many young people in and out of the Gaeltacht who will never let that happen.

So, my advice is to keep learning, use your language, forget about linguistic nirvana, and above all, let those without fault cast the first stone.

(Message edited by GGN on January 23, 2010)

Hmmm... speaking of a student in Irish here I am to prove that. I always thought this was a typo or alternative spelling.

Whats the difference between "Galltacht" and Gaeltacht"?

Gall = foreigner
Gael = Gael

Galltacht is what the parts of Ireland that are no longer Irish speaking are called.

I can acknowledge that you cannot generalize that Gaeltacht people always speak perfect Irish and those outside bad Irish. But on the other hand I can acknowledge that you hardly hear as anglicised pronunciation as that of some speakers in Dublin outside of the Dublin aeea. This is not to say that all or most Irish speakers have such terrible pronunciation! As I have stated in another post, pure Irish without any anglicised intonation has no future! "Galltacht Irish" is the form that will survive, inside and outside the Gaeltacht!

Ggn knows the situation very well and I agree with him/her? Am I right that you speak the Gaidhlig, Ggn?

One additional point: when the last person who ever heard a monoglot Irish speaker has passed away we will still have the RTÉ and RAIDIO NA GAELTACHTA archives. We will also have all the literature. There will be no excuse for us not to have good Irish, both spoken and written.

Who knows but by then an enlightened Government may have set up new Irish language comunities throughout the country in less hostile terrain than the traditional Gaeltacht of today. I am thinking of the Golden Vale, the Plains of Meath, and the Heart of Dublin.

Má bhunaítear Gaeltacht nua, ní hé an Rialtas a dhéanfaidh é. An pobal a bhunaidh Rath Cairn, agus an pobal a fuair aitheantas Gaeltachta dó. Mar an gcéanna Bóthar Seoige.

(Message edited by aonghus on January 23, 2010)

Tacaigh ceannasach aituil ar son ar dTeanga Duchasach - Gaeilge. Dean dearmad faoin Rialtas don noimead.

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"Galltacht Irish" is the form that will survive, inside and outside the Gaeltacht!

Na daoiní a deireas sin, is iad na daoiní atá rófhalsa leis na fíorfhuaimeannaí a fhoghlaim agus leis an fhíortheangaidh a fhoghlaim, sin an méid. Dá mbeadh fíorghrá acu sin don Ghaeilg, d'fhoghlaimeochadh siad í mar atá sí á labhairt ag na cainteoirí Gaeltachta...

Muna mian leat fuaimeannaí difriúla ón Bhéarla, gramadach dhifriúil ón Bhéarla agus cora cainte difriúla ón Bhéarla, labhair Béarla agus ná foghlaim teangaidh eile!
Tuige a bhfoghlaimeann tú Gaeilg muna mian leat rud úr ar bith a fhoghlaim?

(how do I do a quote?)
One additional point: when the last person who ever heard a monoglot Irish speaker has passed away we will still have the RTÉ and RAIDIO NA GAELTACHTA archives. We will also have all the literature. There will be no excuse for us not to have good Irish, both spoken and written.

Is there an online archive Taidghín? I wish to get a copy of an interview my grandfather did a couple of years ago.

If you are referring to his visit to Inis Gé that is on sale in Ionad Deirbhle. Phone Máire Bhán or Máire Uí Ruadháin.

A Aonghuis, tá an ceart agat ar bhealach ach níl ar bhealach eile. Chuaigh meitheal ó Chonamara ar cuairt chuig DeValera agus spreag siad Coimisiún na Talún le pobal Chonamara a lonnú le chéile ar eastát mór a bhí le roinnt i Rath Cairn. Údarás Stáit ab ea an Coimisiún. Gan DeV ní tharlódh sé. Ba é Máirtín Ó Cadhain a fuair aitheantas dóibh nuair a bhí duine de shagairt an pharóiste ag brú Béarla orthu. Mhair an Ghaeilge mar bhíodar go léir ina gcomharsain san áit thiar.

""Galltacht Irish" is the form that will survive, inside and outside the Gaeltacht!"

Just to be clear this is not the point that I am arguing.

I am stating that things are much more complicated and diverse than represented by simple arguements.

Tá gá le bá ó cheannairí an Stáit, cinnte - nó is cabhair é. Ach ní leor é. (Féach dán Baile Ghib!)

Ach is ón talamh aníos a tháinig mórchuid de na rudaí fiúntacha - RnaG agus TG Fóir ina measc. Gan trácht ar Ghaelscolaíocht.

No, one he did with radio na gaeltachta. I'll email them and see if they can help.

Liam:

quote:

(how do I do a quote?)

\ + quote + { + (how do I do a quote?) }

Fág na "+" agus an spás thart orthu ar lár.

Breis faoi "Help" ar chlé

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=help

This whole Galltacht Irish versus Gaeltacht Irish is indeed extremely complicated. For instance native Irish speakers raised in the Galltacht that to my ear sound like Gaeltacht natives include Liam Ó Maonlaí the singer, Bríd Óg Ní Bhuachalla the sometimes Liveline and Nuacht newsreader and Maighréad Ní Dhomhnaill the singer. On the other hand young speakers today in the Gaeltacht do not have the richness of spoken Irish as the previous generation and can have anglicied intonation. Ultimately Galltacht Irish may become the norm but there are no excuses to speaking bad Irish and I must say Hector hasn't helped there seems to be an acceptance now of irish littered with English which should be strongly opposed.The big problem will be preventing a creolisation of Irish in the future

I think the existence of good speakers today of near-native-speaker standard, good texts, dictionaries, grammars. excellent learning facilities online, audio clips, and a world-wide Gaeltacht online ready and willing to help learners should ensure that standards in Irish should continue to rise. Now that Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla is taking effect and all the leaders of the political parties are fluent and that it is now perceived that the "elite" in Ireland have Irish in greater numbers than ever before the drift towards Irish is becoming very obvious. Long may it continue. Certainly there will be a wide spectrum of Irish in existence but the written standard and present day Gaeltacht pronunciation will always be the goal. Many will achieve it. There is little danger of a creole or pidgin. Irish is already used on many levels and in different registers.

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should ensure that standards in Irish should continue to rise.

It won't change anything if people are too lazy to learn seriously, like... It's nice to have good books and good recordings, but if people don't use them...

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There is little danger of a creole or pidgin.

There is, in my opinion.

Ní hionann an líon bheag daoine a bhíonn ag Gaeilgeoireacht ar líne agus pobal na Gaeilge sa Ghalltacht!

Beidh daoine le droch Ghaeilge ann cinnte, ach feictear domhsa go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó daoine atá díograiseach faoi chruinneas agus ceart na Gaeilge.

"if people are too lazy to learn seriously"

I know people who have never learned the language seriously. They can neither read nor write Irish yet they have as youths picked the language up as teenagers from their environment.

They give life to the language.

Most of it isnt creole nor pidgin, but a solid urban re-interpretation of the Rann na Feirste Irish.

Duine ar bith a bhaineanns úsáid as an Ghaeilg mar theanga laethúil - Gaeilg iontach maith acu i mo bharúil.

And I have listened intently to people in Galway, Belfast and Dublin speaking Irish.

I really don't think it's possible to get any real indication of what's happening or will happen with the language by surfing a couple of forums full of over eager learners. People tend to stand their corner...
My corner is as an adult learner living in England.

All I want to do is learn Irish -
This unhealthy obsession some have with asking learners 'which' dialect are you learning' makes the whole process seem like more work than it's worth. The funny thing is , these same 'purists' never lead by example.
Many of us are trying to improve our irish by writing as many Irish posts as possible just to communicate and practice - Do the 'purists' join in? Like f*ck, do they.. They'd rather sit there, high on their own self importance, refusing to take part in any sentence that is grammatically beneath them.

It's al about expressing ideas and relating to other humans - Some people can't do that in any language no matter how many they've studied.

Think: Being asked to choose a dialect is like being asked to reject two.

School kids and international learners need an All Ireland standard otherwise Gaeltacht Irish will be watered down simply by being constantly under the microscope.

Asarlaí,

Sin scéal eile do líne cainte eile, nó 'tréad' mar a déarfá.

I'm reacting to the creole slur but didn't get there until the last sentence..
Go n-éirí leat a Ggn :0)

Creole and pidgin are not necessarily slurs, if they are being used in the strict linguist's sense.

At the end of the day, heated debates here will have very little influence on events in Ireland.

There is a range in the quality of Irish spoken, inside and outside the Gaeltacht. It is too early to say what the outcome will be.

Steps are beginning to be taken to strengthen language transmission inside and outside the Gaeltacht.

What happens to the language depends on how those steps work.

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Think: Being asked to choose a dialect is like being asked to reject two.

and not choosing a dialect is like rejecting the Irish language. Irish is, as all languages, a group of dialects.

So your advice to foreign students wanting to learn English would be to learn one of the English dialects. There has to be a middle ground, we know the divide and weaken route so well, it's time to stand united. The main problem facing Irish isn't that so many Irish people use bad Irish it's that they use English. An English that can flow from country to country because of its flexibility... If it don't bend, it will break.

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So your advice to foreign students wanting to learn English would be to learn one of the English dialects.

Of course. Anyway you don't have any choice, all English native speakers speak a dialect, don't they? Even those who speak "Standard English", which is a dialect too.
The difference between English and Irish is that Standard English has native speakers, it's not a made-up dialect, it's an existing dialect that has been chosen to be the Standard language ; Standard Irish doesn't have any native speaker, since it was made up by blending several dialects and historical forms...

For the life of me I've never understood people who put no effort whatsoever into learning to pronounce Irish correctly.
They appear all the time on TG4 - people who've clearly spent many years learning to express themselves quite well in the language but still make the most basic errors in pronunciation e.g. /k/ instead of /x/.
Listening to some of them cuts through me like a knife.

For me, learning to pronounce the sounds of Irish is one of the great pleasures of the learning process.
I feel I'm finding my own "Irish voice" by learning to pronounce it correctly (if that makes sense).
It's distinct set of sounds are as fundamental a part of the language (or any language) as its words or inflections and people who decide to simply not bother with them (and, infinitely worse, "teachers" who tell those they are teaching that it's not important) are doing themselves (and the language) a great disservice and denying themselves one of the most satisfying and rewarding aspects of acquiring a new language.

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For the life of me I've never understood people who put no effort whatsoever into learning to pronounce Irish correctly. They appear all the time on TG4 - people who've clearly spent many years learning to express themselves quite well in the language but still make the most basic errors in pronunciation e.g. /k/ instead of /x/.

You could fathom that some of them are making an effort but can't get that sound. Some of those people may never master that sound, but their children will if they're raised with Irish. I live amongst many immigrants who will never achieve certain English sounds, but their children pronounce English like natives. The people learning Irish as a second language will almost always have some deficiency. We look to their children to cross the bridge when they learn it as a first language from the natives around them. So the goal is to put native speakers in those key positions, and those who have developed near native Irish skills.

Oh, ch is often pronounced /k/ instead of /x/ in Munster Irish. I have heard this on a video from a native speaker of Munster Irish! I myself have heard this only in Munster, not in other regions. Much more terrible is ,in my ears, not to differentiate between slender and broad r.

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You could fathom that some of them are making an effort but can't get that sound.

It's the undoubtedly large proportion of them that have made the decision NOT to bother that I have in mind.
Some sounds are, of course, more difficult that others - the notorious "slender R" probably being the hardest - but /x/ is not a difficult sound for English speakers to replicate. There's no excuse for "Iss air-an-ock may" from someone who's clearly been many years learning the language.

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It's the undoubtedly large proportion of them that have made the decision NOT to bother that I have in mind.

Fianaise? Tá amhras ormsa; ní hé sin mo thaithí-se! Mionlach an dream nach bhfeiceann gá feabhas a chuir ar a gcuid Gaeilge. Ní mór a chuir san áireamh nach bhfuil cluas oilte ag gach duine, agus go bhfuil sé ana dheacair blas agus foghraíocht a thabhairt leat agus tú fásta.

Bíonn daoine ann a chaitheann fiche bliain i dtír, agus teanga na tíre go paiteanta acu, ach foghraíocht coimhthíoch fós acu.

Respect? Ómós? Us learners must respect those whose native language is Irish. Native Irish speakers must respect learners unless they hate the thought of anyone speaking it in any form other than that used by their own relatives and neighbours. {Think of New York English, the English of East Africa, India, West Kerry, North Mayo. That's how they feel about our Irish.]

Respect: No one should attribute attitudes and motives to people who use Irish. Just be thankful that the native speakers are willing to use their Irish and let us learners see how excellent and fluent and beautiful their command of the language is. Many native speakers are unwilling to speak Irish except to those who spoke Irish to them in their childhood: their grandparents mostly.

The joke about the burial of one of the major Irish scholars still carries a lesson: All his fellow professors from all the Irish university faculties were clustered around the grave as the coffin was lowered. When it was possible to read the inscription on the breastplate one was heard to remark, in English, "Seven mistakes!"

It points up how little respect the academics have for us ordinary folk who are not seeking to add a new certificate / diploma / degree / doctorate to our CV with each year that passes. Asarlaí has put it more vehemently than I but I agree with him.

Think of those professional musicians whose standard of perfection is so high that they could not join in a session playing The Kesh Jig. They couldn't play "without their sheet music." Ordinary enthusiastic musicians learn by ear and play as often as possible without a thought for lthe criteria laid down by someone else.

Let's make Irish part of popular culture. Remember the "Scaoil amach an bobailín" banner in Páirc an Chrócaigh which upset some of those who understood what it meant and provided book titles for teachers who did not. Great fun. Leanaimis orainn beag beann ar na saoithíní.

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Mionlach an dream nach bhfeiceann gá feabhas a chuir ar a gcuid Gaeilge.

Mionlach ceart go leor ach ceann mór agus is eagal liom go bhfuil sé ag fás.

quote:

Ní mór a chuir san áireamh nach bhfuil cluas oilte ag gach duine, agus go bhfuil sé ana dheacair blas agus foghraíocht a thabhairt leat agus tú fásta.

Tuigim é sin, ar ndóigh, agus ní hiad-san go bhfuil locht agam leo ach an dream a shocruigheann gan iarracht dá laghad a dhéanamh chun fuaimniughadh na Gaedhilge a fhoghlaim.

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Oh, ch is often pronounced /k/ instead of /x/ in Munster Irish. I have heard this on a video from a native speaker of Munster Irish!

Well, if a man who pronounces ch as k says he's a native speaker from Kerry, then I think I can say I'm a native speaker too... because I don't make such basic errors.
In Ireland, many people claim they are native speakers while they are not (or if you say you're a native speaker because you've been raised up by a bad-Irish speaking father, it doesn't count, it's just as if I raised up my children with my cupla focal of German... can they say they are native speakers of German then? lol)

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I myself have heard this only in Munster,

I heard young native speakers (I mean, real ones) from Corca Dhuibhne and from Muskerry, and they'd never replace /x/ by /k/...

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Much more terrible is ,in my ears, not to differentiate between slender and broad r.

This looks to be more common among real native speakers (young ones) from Munster. English r's instead of the two Irish r's. It's a pity.

Both /x/ and /k/ exist in Munster Irish, as Lughaidh says. But I think what other people mean is that there are some unlenited words (comh for chomh, and ceithre for cheithre, and cím for chím) that are acceptable Munster Irish. However, that is a long way from saying that all /x/ can be /k/ in Munster. Éireannach can only have a /x/ in any dialect of Irish.

It isnt /k/ the some younger munster speakers replace /x/ with. It is /k'/ (dont have ipa) a slender k.

You dont really notice it.

In truth, many Ulster speakers leave it out altogher, which is worse?

Incidently, I find /x/ > /k/ a rare mistake indeed amongst all but the most basic learners. It is not a mistake I worry about as the development of lenetion in those conditions is inevitable in my view.

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It isnt /k/ the some younger munster speakers replace /x/ with. It is /k'/ (dont have ipa) a slender k.

I don't understand what you're saying.

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In truth, many Ulster speakers leave it out altogher, which is worse?

What do they leave?

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Incidently, I find /x/ > /k/ a rare mistake indeed amongst all but the most basic learners.

Oh no, most learners do it (at least those whose first language is English, since /x/ doesn't exist in their language, while Spanish or German speaking learners wouldn't have any problem with this sound). And not only beginners, even "fluent" speakers (not native of course) make that mistake.

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It is not a mistake I worry about as the development of lenetion in those conditions is inevitable in my view.

The development of lenition of what? when?...

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Oh no, most learners do it (at least those whose first language is English, since /x/ doesn't exist in their language ...

Tell them to "hawk a loggie" and go from there. A teacher I had taught us an Arabic sound by having us do dry heaves. I love these interactive teaching methods! We have the sound, we just don't use it to speak.

/x/ sure as hell exists in English round our way!

Lughaidh you interlocutor means that /x/ is realised as nothing in Ulster [I think you will argue it is /h/ or /r/, but not nothing] and also that /x/ is realised as /k'/ in Munster - that is surely a mistaken view. Éireannach as Eireannaic?

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A teacher I had taught us an Arabic sound by having us do dry heaves.

This may be an easier and less painful way:

For the gh sound, make believe you're gargling. The sound should come quite naturally with a little adjustment if needed.

For the /x/ sound, use the same gargling method but tighten up the far back of the tongue a little.

With a little practice, both sounds are quite easy.

A differing view?

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Antain Mac Lochlainn: ... It’s fair to say that learners in different parts of the country have their own unique problems with certain sounds. Belfast people, I’ve noticed, have a real problem with broad ch, especially at the end of words. So someone might say tee-shack instead of taoiseach or chack towerna instead of teach tábhairne. Others find it hard to believe that that particular sound would give anyone any problems, because they hear it every day in their own English, in words like loch and so on. Even so, it’s a real problem for some people and my advice would be if you can’t say it, leave it out, at the end of words at least. Taoisea and tea are just as acceptable as taoiseach and teach and you’ll hear many a good native speaker of Irish letting the ch drop out at the end of words. ... It’s a pity more attention isn’t given to pronunciation in Irish teaching materials. There’s not much point having a good grasp of grammar and a wide vocabulary if your speech is a bit stilted or even hard to understand. ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/irish/video_audio/transcript/546/english/

The only people who use the 'perfect' form of any language are those who write grammar books. If we all spoke without any flaws, learning and listening to language would be excruciatingly boring. Now I'm a bit of a grammar freak myself, so I understand the overpowering need to 'fix' everything. But I also understand that language is used for communication, and you can't do that if your so focused on the rules that you forget to get across your meaning.

One of the most wonderful and sorrowful things about language is that it's constantly changing, and all we can do is hold on to our little piece and hope it survives.

Just my random thought on the subject.

Should point out that the phenonomen described from Munster is limited to younger speakers, but I have done considerable field work in the province and it does exist.

Clearly, I will have to write a paper sometime on this.

One additional point: when the last person who ever heard a monoglot Irish speaker has passed away...

...and I'm relieved that nobody has taken the liberty to bury them (to borrow from J.J.) because I think you might be wrong - but I'm not sure.

Más buan mo chuimhne bhí seandaoine fós ar an saol - i nDún Chaoin ar a laghad - sna seachtóidí agus, de réir dealraimh, ní raibh Béarla (feidhmiúil ?) acu, mar ní thuigidís na turasóirí nuair a chuireadh na turasóirí ceist orthu etc. Dob é an tátal a bhaineamar as ag an am ná go raibh siad aonteangach.

(Message edited by ormondo on January 27, 2010)

A Chairde, Dia dhaoibh!
I have a slightly derogatory word for Standard Irish, for I consider the standardization was made at a cost which was greater than any threat made by Seán ó Cuív.
There is benevolence in the name, as it starts with a hope.
The pun sadly involves a word treated as insulting, so I do not use it often. That word is 'Erse', and the language of hope then is 'Erseperanto'.
Slán!
Déyv.

A Chairde, Dia dhaoibh!
'Ch' and 'k'.
Yes, I understand.
If you are not hearing sharply, then you can miss the difference.
An example is Pimsleur:
Sa chaife liteartha = In the literary café.
Cá bhfuil an caife? = Where is the café?
The difference is not outstanding, and the instructor goes to great pains to bring the listener's attention to it, and this is broad 'ch' and 'k'.
Indeed, your brain is probably sharper at correcting the mispronunciation, than your ears are at detecting it.

It is for this reason that I prefer the use of 'k' to represent the broad 'ch' sound, to 'x', which many people, even having learned, still pronounce as 'ks', in my simplified spelling, MLS. Again, pictorially it resembles a half caste of 'c' and 'h'.

As for pronouncing broad 'ch', think of broad 't' and 'd'.
They are, unlike English, pronounced with the tongue just touching the back of the upper teeth to make the stop, or start, rather than the front of the palate. As a result, there is a poor seal at the tip of the tongue, which to some degree tends to leak the stop into a fricative.

Compare the 't' in 'tor' with the 'th' in 'thaw'.
Now, with your mouth arranged to pronounce the 't' in 'tor', overload your tongue with lung pressure, so that the seal at the tip of your tongue fails slightly, and the stop leaks.
The 't' of 'tor' simply becomes the 'th' of 'thaw'.

Likewise, the 'k' stop, if forced to leak by overloading the seal at the back of the tongue, becomes a fricative very close to the 'ch' sound.

'G' is just a voiced 'k', so the argument above follows, nd broad 'dh', 'gh' sound is just a leaky 'g'.

I do have questions with 'r'.
As I hear it, the broad 'r' is a semivowel, often acting as a glide, but not having a truly distinctive sound other than the modification of an adjacent vowel. The slender 'r' however, seems almost to trill, with the tongue in the position of a broad 'd'.

Native comments on my observations would be welcome, for if I'm in error, I need correction.