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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (January-February) » Archive through January 26, 2010 » Word Order « Previous Next »

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Paploo
Member
Username: Paploo

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 03:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have a question pretaining to word order. I know that as sentences get more complex the word order tends to change and perhaps follow fewer rules. I have a question about simple sentences because I keep finding ones that seem simple yet I don't understand the word order.

example from http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madra

The first sentence
quote:

Ainmhí clóis is ea an madra (madadh nó gadhar) (Canis lupus familiaris).



Ainmhí clóis is ea an madra. I believe this means that "The dog is a domestic animal" or something along those lines. Grammatically I am confused. The subject is an madra, the predicate is ainmhí clóis and the copula is used to connect the two. I guess this is where my problem is.
Why is "Ainmhí clóis is ea an madra." correct and not "Is an madra ainmhí clóis."? Is it just two different ways to say it or is the second incorrect? If it is just two different ways to say it why is the first prefered?

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9600
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If the second one were "Is ainmhí clóis an madra" it would be correct.

The copula is not really a verb, and follows its own rules which hopefully one of the mavens will be able to enlighten you on.

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Asarlaí
Member
Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's a munster form -
Ainmhí clóis is ea an madra is the same as 'is ainmhí clóis é an madra

If you haven't seen this online Irish grammar site yet, you'll love it

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gramadac.htm

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 408
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 08:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Paploo,
The copula has deep and profound mysteries. All I can say is practice makes perfect. A sub-page of the link below gives some detailed information on the syntax.

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul1.htm

Under "The classifactorial clause (an abairt aicme)":

Dochtúir is ea an fear = lit. "A doctor, is it the man"

The 2nd variation of the [classifactorial clause] is actually a form of emphasis with a trailing copular clause (like a left shift):

Although in Munster, this is the general common form of the classifactorial clause. But, it will only occur in the affirmative clauses.

A common form of emphasis in Connacht and Donegal would be a relative clause with bí and the preposition i (as an inversion of the clause Tá sí ina dochtúir, see classifactorial clauses without the copula ):

Dochtúir atá inti = She is a doctor.

Rud a bhí ann nárbh fhurasta a dhéanamh = That is something, that is not easy to do.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 09:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, paploo.

Take a look at the following page (bookmark it, it will come in handy again and again):

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul5.htm

You will notice that more often than not the subject comes _after_ the predicate in an Irish copula construction.

Hope this helps.

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Rogue9772
Member
Username: Rogue9772

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Asarlaí,

Go raibn maith agat for that link. As a new learner I will be there a lot.

Proinsias

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Paploo
Member
Username: Paploo

Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2009


Posted on Friday, January 22, 2010 - 08:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat for the links

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 409
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Friday, January 22, 2010 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another note is that the standard word order of Verb + Subject + Object + Modifiers does hold, but it is often strayed from by native speakers and writers. When this happens, there are certain forms which are employed. Your "Ainmhí clóis is ea an madra" is one example, "Dochtúir atá inti" is another, etc. Generally there is a fronting of a word/phrase/clause and the rest is placed in a relative clause. The copular constructions for fronting are a little different because of the copula's special nature. What I do is make a short chart of the most common to refer to until they become natural. And, don't worry, they will if you continually use them.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.



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