Author |
Message |
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 167 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:54 am: |
|
This is something I came across twice in the week-- I know that it's supposed to be (caighdeán anyway) 'caithfidh' instead of 'caitheamh' but is there any reason why a native speaker would write this and not 'caithfidh'? Or would 'caitheamh' be colloquial, even in this context? (I know of it being the verbal noun, it's its use instead of caithfidh that I'm finding bizarre!) |
|
Asarlaí
Member Username: Asarlaí
Post Number: 265 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 09:25 am: |
|
Hi Sinead, In short, caithfidh is the future tense of Caith - Spend/Throw/Put out But it can also mean 'have to' or 'must' So, caithfidh mé a rá - I have to say (I'll put out to say) Caitheamh is the verbal noun, (spending, throwing) I'm a learner myself so wait for other replies to get a more comprehensive explanation. |
|
Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 363 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 09:52 am: |
|
I think it is the kind of mistake commonly made by a native speaker who pronounces both caitheamh and caithfidh similarly (/kahə/, /ka:ə/, or /ka:/, perhaps) in his or her dialect and isn't too crash hot at spelling/writing. In other words, to the speaker caitheamh and caithfidh are homophones. |
|
Asarlaí
Member Username: Asarlaí
Post Number: 267 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 10:00 am: |
|
Except if the speaker is from the north, they pronounce -eamh endings as -ooh I think. Got to say, I tend to pronounce -eamh with 'v' sound almost like the -ive sound in the English 'live', 'give'.. Don't know where I got that from |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 168 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 10:29 am: |
|
ah that's it Brendan. It was from two Conamara sources. Thanks for clearing that up.. I thought that maybe it was some old colloquial thing, since I had seen it twice, but your explanation makes sense. Go raibh míle. |
|
Jehan
Member Username: Jehan
Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 01:36 pm: |
|
Do you really think Brendan that this two are homophones ?. Just like Asarlai I would have pronounced the -eamh one with a "v" sound" (like in "live") and the -thfidh one like "huh" (a little bit like the "li" of "live"). |
|
Jehan
Member Username: Jehan
Post Number: 60 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 01:37 pm: |
|
Oops, "these" two ... |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 402 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 02:36 pm: |
|
I believe in Conamara -idh is usually /i:/ or /-ə/ depending on what follows the verb. -eamh is always /-ə/, I think. This is not from direct experience, but just what I remember from reading in books. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
Peter
Member Username: Peter
Post Number: 659 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 03:56 pm: |
|
"Caitheamh" and "caithfidh" really are homophones in Connemara Irish. The final "-idh" is always a schwa (there are some exceptions though in stem-final position, but never in inflections). "Caitheamh" also has a co-form in Connemara --- /ka:hu:/ (/kau:/) which appears in certain expressions, e.g. "caitheamh aimsire" (pronounced as if spelt "cathú aimsire"). 'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'
|
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 169 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 04:45 pm: |
|
The 'schwa' is the 'upside down e' sound is it? (don't know how to get the upside down e sign) What is stem-final position as opposed to inflection? (by the way don't worry to reply to this one if it will takes ages)! |
|
Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 804 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 05:58 pm: |
|
Inflections are the bits you tack onto stems to get inflected words. The last segment in a stem would be said to be in "stem-final position". For instance, caith- is the stem of caithfidh and caitheamh whereas -idh and -eamh are the inflectional endings. In the singular imperative caith! the th is both word-final and stem-final. |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 404 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 06:12 pm: |
|
quote:don't know how to get the upside down e sign Just copy and paste. /ə/ Beyond this, it depends on what browser you use, or program to type out your posts. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 364 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 07:53 pm: |
|
Jehan, Ó Siadhail gives /ka:/ as the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation for both the verb caith and for the verbal noun caitheamh (although as Peter says this may vary in certain expressions). caitheamh would not have a v sound in Conamara (or Donegal?) because the mh is broad. -(e)amh /əw/ is usually pronounced /u:/ in Conamara or often shortened to /ə/. -(e)amh /əw'/ = /əv'/ with a v sound would probably be more of a Munster pronunciation of that ending. (Message edited by breandán on January 19, 2010) |
|
Wee_falorie_man
Member Username: Wee_falorie_man
Post Number: 204 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:11 pm: |
|
Tá an ceart agat, a Bhreandáin! In Munster: caitheamh (kah-həv) caithfidh (kah-hig) |
|
Bodhrán
Member Username: Bodhrán
Post Number: 67 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:20 pm: |
|
quote:(don't know how to get the upside down e sign)
To get the upside down e sign, type in the following all on the same line: the backslash character followed directly by char{601} www.IrishBooksAndGifts.com
|
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3351 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:37 pm: |
|
In Ulster: caitheamh /kahuw/ caithfidh /kahi/, and /kahə/ before subject pronouns Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
|
|