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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2010 (January-February) » Archive through January 26, 2010 » 'caitheamh mé a rá' « Previous Next »

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 167
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is something I came across twice in the week-- I know that it's supposed to be (caighdeán anyway) 'caithfidh' instead of 'caitheamh' but is there any reason why a native speaker would write this and not 'caithfidh'?
Or would 'caitheamh' be colloquial, even in this context?
(I know of it being the verbal noun, it's its use instead of caithfidh that I'm finding bizarre!)

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 265
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 09:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi Sinead,
In short, caithfidh is the future tense of Caith - Spend/Throw/Put out
But it can also mean 'have to' or 'must'
So, caithfidh mé a rá - I have to say (I'll put out to say)

Caitheamh is the verbal noun, (spending, throwing)

I'm a learner myself so wait for other replies to get a more comprehensive explanation.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 09:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think it is the kind of mistake commonly made by a native speaker who pronounces both caitheamh and caithfidh similarly (/kahə/, /ka:ə/, or /ka:/, perhaps) in his or her dialect and isn't too crash hot at spelling/writing. In other words, to the speaker caitheamh and caithfidh are homophones.

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Asarlaí
Member
Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 10:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Except if the speaker is from the north, they pronounce -eamh endings as -ooh I think. Got to say, I tend to pronounce -eamh with 'v' sound almost like the -ive sound in the English 'live', 'give'.. Don't know where I got that from

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Sineadw
Member
Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 168
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 10:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ah that's it Brendan. It was from two Conamara sources. Thanks for clearing that up.. I thought that maybe it was some old colloquial thing, since I had seen it twice, but your explanation makes sense. Go raibh míle.

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Jehan
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Username: Jehan

Post Number: 59
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 01:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do you really think Brendan that this two are homophones ?.
Just like Asarlai I would have pronounced the -eamh one with a "v" sound" (like in "live") and the -thfidh one like "huh" (a little bit like the "li" of "live").

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Jehan
Member
Username: Jehan

Post Number: 60
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 01:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oops, "these" two ...

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 402
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 02:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I believe in Conamara -idh is usually /i:/ or /-ə/ depending on what follows the verb. -eamh is always /-ə/, I think. This is not from direct experience, but just what I remember from reading in books.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 659
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 03:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Caitheamh" and "caithfidh" really are homophones in Connemara Irish. The final "-idh" is always a schwa (there are some exceptions though in stem-final position, but never in inflections). "Caitheamh" also has a co-form in Connemara --- /ka:hu:/ (/kau:/) which appears in certain expressions, e.g. "caitheamh aimsire" (pronounced as if spelt "cathú aimsire").

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Sineadw
Member
Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 169
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The 'schwa' is the 'upside down e' sound is it? (don't know how to get the upside down e sign)

What is stem-final position as opposed to inflection? (by the way don't worry to reply to this one if it will takes ages)!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 804
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Inflections are the bits you tack onto stems to get inflected words. The last segment in a stem would be said to be in "stem-final position".

For instance, caith- is the stem of caithfidh and caitheamh whereas -idh and -eamh are the inflectional endings. In the singular imperative caith! the th is both word-final and stem-final.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 404
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 06:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

don't know how to get the upside down e sign



Just copy and paste.

/ə/

Beyond this, it depends on what browser you use, or program to type out your posts.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 364
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 07:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jehan, Ó Siadhail gives /ka:/ as the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation for both the verb caith and for the verbal noun caitheamh (although as Peter says this may vary in certain expressions).

caitheamh would not have a v sound in Conamara (or Donegal?) because the mh is broad. -(e)amh /əw/ is usually pronounced /u:/ in Conamara or often shortened to /ə/. -(e)amh /əw'/ = /əv'/ with a v sound would probably be more of a Munster pronunciation of that ending.

(Message edited by breandán on January 19, 2010)

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Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 204
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá an ceart agat, a Bhreandáin!

In Munster:

caitheamh (kah-həv)

caithfidh (kah-hig)

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Bodhrán
Member
Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

(don't know how to get the upside down e sign)



To get the upside down e sign, type in the following all on the same line:

the backslash character

followed directly by

char{601}

www.IrishBooksAndGifts.com

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3351
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 08:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Ulster:
caitheamh /kahuw/
caithfidh /kahi/, and /kahə/ before subject pronouns

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/



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