how do you exclaim,

"oh! how dirty you are, get into the bath"

"how wet you are, get that coat off"

it's the first part of the sentance ( the exclaimation ) that i have difficulty with, not the following command.
can anyone help?

I think you'd paraphrase and just state it.

Tá tú cáidheach, isteach sa folca leat

Tá tú báite, bain díot an cóta sin

Is féidir leat úsáid a bhaint as an déantús seo leanas:

Chomh salach leat...
Chomh fliuch leat...

quote:

Tá tú cáidheach, isteach sa folca leat

wouldn't it be "san fholcadán" ?

"oh! how dirty you are, get into the bath"

The first sentence is the run-up to the second one but they are two independent sentences; there could just as well be a full-stop between them.

EIB offers something like:

Nach salach atá tá, isteach sa... !

Nach fliuch atá tú, bain díot an cóta sin!

The question is always: do people say it like that?

I think the chomh...le construction is the usual one. What about these examples from a translation of the Gospels by Peter O' Leary:

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Peter O'Leary's translation: Ach má bhíonn do shúil go h-olc, beidh do chorp go léir gan solus. Agus má's ionan agus doircheacht an solus atá ionat, cad é méid na doircheachta féin?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Peter O'Leary's translation: A Ierúsalem, a Ierúsalem, a mharbhuigeann na fáidhe, agus a ghabhann do chlochaibh ins na daoine a curtar chúghat, cad é a mhiniceacht dob' áil liom do chlann a bhailiú chugham mar a bhailigheann an chearc a h-ál fé n-a sgiathánaibh, agus níor bh'áil leat!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Peter O'Leary's translation: A Ierúsalem, a Ierúsalem, a mharbhuigeann na fáidhe, agus a ghabhann do chlochaibh ar na daoine a curtar chúghat, cad é a mhinice dob' áil liom do chlann a chruinniú, mar a chruinnigheann an t-éan a h-ál fé n-a sgiathánaibh, agus níor bh'áil leat!

So:
how great is the darkness: cad é méid na doircheachta
how often I wished: cad é a mhiniceacht dob áil liom OR
how often I wished: cad é a mhinice dob áil liom

Has anyone seen these types of constructions before instead of using chomh?

thanks for the help folks!

quote:

wouldn't it be "san fholcadán" ?

Sin an umar. Nuair atá uisce ann, is isteach sa folcadh* a théann tú. (Dar liomsa, pé scéal é).

* an litriú ceart. Rinne mé botún thuas.

(Message edited by aonghus on January 17, 2010)

quote:

Has anyone seen these types of constructions before instead of using chomh?

This is a different How, I think, and therefore Cad is required. It is not so much an exclamation as a statement.

"San fholcadh" nó "sa bhfolcadh" ach ní déarfaí "sa folcadh", síleam. Sin a bhí i gceist agam. Cibith síleam go dtig leat ghabháil isteach san fholcadán fosta...

Géillim cinnte do do chruinneas!

"sa bhfolcadh" sílim a bheadh agam.

Mar a dúirt, an umar a bheadh i gceist agam le "folcadán", ach n'fheadar nach bhfuil an ceart agat.

Ceadaigh foclóir Uí Dhónaill...

Rinne mé, ach ní raibh mé iomlán cinnte. Níl aon sampla tugtha aige a fheileann, agus ciallaíonn "bath" an umar agus an gníomh araon.

D'fhéach mé sa tobar fosta, ach níl folcadán le fáil ann. Tá roinnt shamplaí le folcadh, ach ní réitíonn siad an cheist.

Pé scéal é, is éard a bhí i gceist agam thuas ná "you are probably right"

oh! how dirty you are, get into the bath"

"how wet you are, get that coat off"

Óra, féach an salachar atá ort. Isteach sa bhfolcadán leat go beo.

Óra, tá tú maosta. Bain díot an cóta sin,

If I had one wish concerning Irish, it'd be that the letter F was free from mutilation when a noun or a verbal noun ... F mutations in verbs are fine :0)

Help liberate the F people! Sa folcadh and a fáil instead of a fháil would be just great. Then when the word sounds like it starts with a vowel there's a good chance it actually does -

.... saying that, I'd settle for everyone saying the same thing,
either sa bhfolcadán or san fholcadh ;0)

I'll get me coat...

Don't you differentiate between the vessel and the contents? Why should everybody say the same thing? It is a language, there is more than one way to say anything! Nuances are useful and necessary!

I have nothing against nuances my dear fellow .. but we've got to at least get everyone using the same grammar - Irish is weakened by these uncertainties.

It's not that uncertain.

Asarlaí,

quote:

sa bhfolcadán or san fholcadh

Different words! Not different grammar.

I made a grammatical mistake in my original post, Lughaidh corrected it. We went off on a tangent because he chose a different word.

Aonghus, it is different grammar though, one lenites and one eclipses.

Asarlaí,
It's not different grammar. Aonghus omitted the article, Lughaidh used it. Both men followed the standard grammar.

Is it different grammar for one person to say "in future" while the other says "in the future"? No, these are usage differences, not grammar differences.

(Message edited by seánw on January 18, 2010)

Seán, what does the 'w' in your name stand for?

Sa or san are both 'in the' - My point was how some say 'sa bhfolcadán' (eclipse) versus san fholcadán (lenition)

As for Aonghus and Lughaidh, they can both grow full beards which I find really annoying ;0)

Asarlaí,

Look into Seán's profile.

You put 'sa' if a consonant SOUND follows, 'san' if a vowel. While FH is technically a consonant, it is silent and not a sound, so you select 'sa/san' by the first sound following in the sequence.

Another Seán

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 18, 2010)

quote:

Sa or san are both 'in the' - My point was how some say 'sa bhfolcadán' (eclipse) versus san fholcadán (lenition)

I tread very lightly into any discussion on grammar but this may be an issue with dialect. According to Lars' grammar guide:

quote:

Initial Mutations after i
without an article: eclipsis e.g. i gCeanada = in Canada
with the singular article: lenition e.g. sa Ghearmáin = in Germany
in Munster f eclipses: sa bhfarraige = in the sea
in Connacht eclipsis (except d, t): sa nGearmáin
in Connacht t-prefix preceding femin. nouns with s-: sa tsúil

That's right An Chilleasrach,
Like anyone who's studied Irish for more than a minute, I'm painfully aware that Irish grammar is not entirely uniform across the dialects. There's only slight differences though, like with 'sa', up north they add a 'h' as they do in munster eg. sa charr but on the west coast they use the eclipse sa gcarr.

It's stuff we all know because part of the deal with learning Irish is that you have to be mindful of the dialects and remember your book Irish will never be considered as the real thing.

My larking about above was nothing more than a bit of fun. What's surprising is Seánw and CuriousFinn's responses... It's like they haven't read or understood a single simple sentence of this thread.

Humour is hard to see in the written word. And considering that Lughaidh and I were at crosspurposes for a few iterations, it's not surprising other people got confused.

Some people never get humour (or tragedy) written or otherwise and being confused and opinionated is not a good combination.

Apologies to Seán Óg,
sorry for jumping in on your thread, didn't realise my original comment would grow legs like this. I was interested in the answer to your question also.

yes Asarlaí I later on came to think that I didn't see somethin behind or between the lines.

Soetimes I get written humor better, sometimes spoken... and there are a lot of people who don't get my humor, whether written or spoken.


Shiúil Meiriceánach, Iarácach agus Fionlannach ar taobh tíre. Chonaic siad muca ann.
Cheap an Meiriceánach: Ba mhaith liom bagún!
Cheap an Iarácach: Ainmhithe salacha!
Cheap an Fionlannach: Cad beidh é a ceapann siad fúmsa?

Fadhb ar bith a CF.. An sampla de ghreann Fionlannach é sin? :0)

A CF, sin ceann iontach!

Mionrud: B'fhearr "Smaoinigh" a úsáid in áit ceap seachas san áit deiridh.

Bhí Meiriceánach, Iarácach agus Fionlannach ar taobh ag súil amuigh faoin tír. Chonaic siad muca ann.
Smaoinigh an Meiriceánach: Ba mhaith liom bagún!
Smaoinigh an Iarácach: Ainmhithe salacha!
Smaoinigh an Fionlannach: Cad beidh é
a cheapann siad fúmsa?

---

smaoineamh [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
feidhm a bhaint as an intinn (ag smaoineamh go domhain; rinne mé smaoineamh i m'intinn); tuairim, cuimhneamh (is maith an smaoineamh é; le smaoineamh nó le briathar; ag smaoineamh ar é a dhéanamh).
ceapadh [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach]
déanamh, múnlú, cumadh (dán a cheapadh); socrú, gealladh (an rud a cheap Dia dó); síleadh, meas (ceapaim go bhfuil an ceart agat); stopadh, gabháil (ainmhí a cheapadh, liathróid a cheapadh).

---

Smaoineamh is better for thought in the abstract, or an act of thinking; ceap describes a particular thought or more usually opinion.

Taobh tíre is a landscape, but not really in the sense that one can walk on it. "amuigh faoin tír" means in the countryside; and Bhí .. ag súil is a more natural wau of saying they were walking, rather than the concrete Shúil

Shúil mé ar obair inniu.
Bhí mé ag súil na sléibhte ag an deireadh seachtaine.

Ádh mór leis an ghreann grinn.


(Message edited by aonghus on January 19, 2010)

Asarlaí,
I admit my mistake. I miswrote. I meant to say that they both use the article, but there are two variations accepted in the standard, eclipsis and lention. Lenition is common up north, which is why Lughaidh wrote san fh-. Sorry. Hey, I even make mistakes in English grammar as well. But the basic point holds, it is usage not grammar that is at question here, and both are accepted.

And, yes, took your criticisms as serious, so then, I guess, you can take mine as humor as well.

(Message edited by seánw on January 19, 2010)

Tá mearbhall orm anois.

Smaoinigh mé go bhfuil 'súil' faoi hope nó eye agus go bhfuil 'siú(i)l' faoi walking.

Cuirigí oideachas orm, le bhur dtoil.

Fair play duit a Sheáin. Tá áthas orm nach bhfuil dochar déanta dár gcairdeas.
Grúpbharróga, éinne? :0)

CF, meancóg! Mo náire "siúl" a bhí i gceist agam. Brón orm. Méire reoite anseo agam!

Méire reoite anseo agam

Mise freisin, ó am go ham. Cuirim litreacha as áit in amanna, mar "fadbh" nó "fabhd"... Toisc go bhfuil buille leithleach an fada, cuirim é as áit freisin mar "Sineád" nó "Si´nead".

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 20, 2010)

Scríobh Asarlaí:

An sampla de ghreann Fionlannach é sin?

Sa scannán Aleksis Kiven elämä (An saol le Aleksis Kivi) dúirt an phearsa:

"Tá cead ag gaire a bheith i gcónaí, ach in am ar bith magadh a déanamh."

Níl a fhios agam má smaoinigh Aleksis Kivi mar sin ina fíor-shaol, ach is dócha liom é.