http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0109/1224261977461.html

quote:

The research team used data from the 2006 Census to examine whether Irish conferred any advantage on those who spoke it.

Surprisingly, for a language that is rarely spoken outside of the Gaeltacht, the report found these benefits were significant.

Those who spoke Irish frequently were even more likely to secure a well-paid job , according to the report.

On education, some 25 per cent of Irish speakers hold a degree or a higher qualification, compared to 14 per cent of non-speakers.

Only 9 per cent of Irish speakers had primary or no qualifications, compared to 22 per cent of their non-Irish speaking counterparts.

The report says Gaelscoileanna have played a key role in raising educational attainment among Irish speakers.

Agus an Tuairisc féin

http://www.esr.ie/Vol40_4/Borooah.pdf

What is an Irish speaker? Is it simply someone who said he was a native speaker in the Census? Is it the same census that said that one Irish citizen out of three (or something silly like that) was able to speak Irish? :-)

Léigh an rud, maith an fear. Tá freagra do cheiste ann. Tá an éifeacht níos láidre ina gcás siúd a labhraíonn Gaeilge go rialta.

Spéisiúl go maith, cé nach bhfuilim cinnte cén tátal atá le baint as. Bheadh sé spéisiúl féachaint an amhlaidh go bhfuil daoine ag fáil oideachas níos fearr de bharr freastal ar Ghaeilscoil, nó an amhlaidh go bhfuil an dream atá chun oideachas níos fearr a bhaint amach pé scéal é ag roghnú Gaelscolaíocht.

An excellent article.
A growing association between Irish and any type of elite in people's minds will be massively beneficial.
It should be encouraged.

Agreed. This sort of thing shouldn't be underestimated.

The advantage could be that more people will do their best to have Irish as they hope to get a better personal image. This was the same with English in Ireland during the 19th century.
On the other hand simple-minded people could turn their back towards Irish and think that Irish is anyhow only the matter of the elite.

I'm not sure.

I didn't like the tone of the report, which implied that it was discrimination in their favour which led to Irish speakers doing better.

That leaves it open to the Self appointed Equality Police to undermine - say - measures to improve Gaelscolaíocht.

The Levellers are still around!

Sin ábhar an phobalbreith an lae san Irish Times inniú. Caith do vóta go luath go minic!

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9182&answe r=1

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/

Na gnáth hamhrasáin ag caitheamh anuas orainn!

Is é an daoscar is mó a ghríostar agus a mhealltar le ceist dá samhail. Agus b'shin mar a bhí sé, faraor.

(Message edited by ormondo on January 11, 2010)

quote:

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9182&answe r=1

Reading the comments, one can't help but notice that there is a fairly significant amount of Irish people who detest the language. Some of the remarks are absurd and outrageous, but some are almost understandable. As time goes on, I'm more and more convinced that a lot of this is due to the legacy (and perception) of Irish being a forced, compulsory subject. I see little benefit in Irish being 'compulsory' beyond the Junior Cert.

I disagree Danny.

My experience on the ground is that there is a very small number of people - possible even less than the number of those fluent in the language - who have this attitude.

But they descend on opportunties like the one provided by this poll. And they generally drive off people who are less passion fueled.

There was a recent Irish Times thread where one poster kept posting drivel, ignoring any responses to his question, and generally only using fallacies rather than arguments.

Online discussions fora are prone to that kind of behaviour - especially if not rigourously moderated.

It's kind of hard to discuss with someone who posts and reposts the equivalent of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

I disagree also.

I wrote a long reply and then deleted it for this site is for learning Irish - not politics.

I disagree also.

One point to consider is that without compulsory Irish that English medium second level schools would by and large stop providing Irish classes after the Junior Cert thus depriving pupils of studying Irish to Leaving Cert and this would also surely go against the Governments 20 year plan for the Irish language to have 250,000 speakers by 2029. Having no Irish for Leaving Cert in majority of schools would impact on the number of children attending Gaeltacht courses thus depriving Gaeltacht areas of a steady and profitable income.

Just to be clear. I was not just disagreeing with Danny's solution (making Irish a non essential Leaving Cert subject) but with his diagnosis of why it is necessary.

Fine Gael's leader floated this kite (non compulsory Irish) before the last election. If there were that many people in favour, it should have had some impact on the outcome. Instead, he got a lot of grief from within and without his party (and didn't make the gains he expected, or indeed any significant gains at all).

Why change the standards? If people aren't doing well, or hating the test, then the problem may not be the content, but the delivery? Try reading about education in the past, we have a cakewalk these days! When did the Irish turn into a bunch of wimps? Now I'm not saying return to past times or practices, but that was what I referred to in another thread as the "dumbing down" -- you throw out the content, not the faulty method. Complain enough and those who don't care about Irish will exclude it from educational standard of the nation. I wonder what the view of English is for the test -- "difficult, but it will be vital for me to get into the university of my choice". Perhaps the "compulsory" part should be to force all the sports games to be broadcast in Irish, then, perhaps, you'll see progress.

When these are your goals, then you have problems:

1. Teaching and learning Irish to pass a test and to get a "job".
2. Do it as cheaply as possible, that is, placing finance above education.
3. Using a simple Pavlovian rewards-for-answers formula (you are "trained" not educated).

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9182&answe r=1

I think one can boil down the negative comments/commentators to a few predictable archetypes which are basically generated by a sort of inferiority complex. The next time, instead of allowing oneself to be provoked, maybe one could try to match the archetype to the negative comment/commentator. Maybe these people can be helped?


“Anything I lack myself should not be a criterion.”
Because it is to my disadvantage to have status and importance conferred on a capability which I either lack completely, or fail to master to a satisfactory degree. Otherwise, I could be left out!! If I were a decathlete with poor pole vaulting ability, I might for tactical reasons join the mob who – for whatever reasons - clamour for its removal from the event.

“Why make life difficult?”
Tackling tricky, unwieldy subjects is much less enjoyable than lying on the couch watching the Premiership.

“Alibi and target for all my ills.”
The only difference between myself and, say, Einstein is that Einstein never had Irish-rammed-down-his-throat in school; otherwise he would never have discovered the Theory of Relativity – which, may I add, having had to learn Irish has prevented me from doing.

“That Irish teacher.”
Well, admittedly the maths teacher used to say I was a dolt, and the English teacher used to ask me which language my English essays were written in… But we won’t talk about THAT, will we?

“The utility JUGGERNAUT!”
Why bother with Irish when you don’t need it? Why bother with anything if you don’t really need it? Let’s perfect The Great Utility Argument; all you need is: ingesting, excreting, sleeping, and – even though superfluous really - issuing the odd grunt. So what are all those canvases doing uselessly hanging in the National Gallery when they could be cut up and used to wrap the sangwiches?

“You don’t have to have Irish to be Irish.”
The only person with the courage, dexterity and circumspection to negotiate his way around this one is no longer* with us. (Stalin’s dentist)
N.B. *No, this isn’t the chap who was burned at the stake in the middle of Talbot Street by the LFM.


Maybe there are a few more...

(Message edited by ormondo on January 14, 2010)

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Preaseisiuinti/file,9801,ie.pdf

This shows that 93% of a representative sample support Irish, with 40% wanting it revived throughout the country.

Table 2.1 on page 6.

Ba mhaith liom na sgoileanna go léir dul saor ó chumas na Stáite, agus "vouchers" á dtabhairt do thuismitheoríbh chun oideachais a cheannach ó aon sgoil gurbh mhaith leo. Mar sin, d'fhéadfadh na tuismitheorí ná béadh aon tsuim i nGaedhilg acu a leanbhaí a chur i sgoileannaibh ná béadh aon Ghaedhilg ann, agus, ar an gcuma gcéadna, d'fhéadfadh na tuismitheorí eile sgoileanna a lorg do n-a leanbhaíbh go mbéadh mórán Gaedhilge ann. Badh chóir d'oideachas, agus don teangan, gan bheith ar chumas an riaghaltais. Ní'l a fhios agam cad a tharlódh leis an nGaedhilg dá mba rud é go mbéadh na sgoileanna níos saoire, acht do bhéadh sé ana-shuimeamhail, ar a laighead!

Sometimes I wonder how people define success vis-à-vis the Irish language in the education sysem. Maybe I just don't see it? I see a fair amount of positives in general, but when it comes to Irish in State schools....where is it? How many students have gone through the educational system in Ireland over the past eighty years or so and how many have emerged with a solid grasp of the language?

Anyway, I'd rather teaching methods improved and learning materials improved before doing away with 'compulsory Irish'. But if it happened, I don't think it'd be catastrophic as some seem to be suggesting.

quote:

One point to consider is that without compulsory Irish that English medium second level schools would by and large stop providing Irish classes after the Junior Cert thus depriving pupils of studying Irish to Leaving Cert

What do you base this statement on? And I doubt schools could even do that (scrapping Irish altogether), as Irish is an official language of the State.

quote:

I think one can boil down the negative comments/commentators to a few predictable archetypes which are basically generated by a sort of inferiority complex.

Are you suggesting that not being interested in Irish is unreasonable?

I don't really blame people for asking: "How will a knowledge of Irish benefit me?"
It's a fair question imho.

quote:

This shows that 93% of a representative sample support Irish, with 40% wanting it revived throughout the country.

Define 'support'. 40% may want it revived, but there's no evidence that even 4% speak it habitually. Something isn't adding up. Why?

It's easy to become disillusioned so I sympathise with some of those who question the position of Irish in the education system. Because I sometimes wonder myself if it's worth it when you see the hostility and arguably worse, the polite indifference wrapped up as 'SUPPORT' that so many IRISH PEOPLE have for the language. Empty words and little else, for the most part.

Danny, I suggest you read the report (it's in English) and draw your own conclusions.

I believe teaching methods - while still poor - have improved; this is borne out by the attitudes according to age in the report.

The problem of lukewarmness will always be with us. The goal must be to increase the number of those who feel competence and speak the language. Most of them would not have that competence without the schooling.

Not to cave in to the small number of malcontents, whatever their motives. Except to try and remove the causes of any justified motives.

"Define 'support'. 40% may want it revived, but there's no evidence that even 4% speak it habitually. Something isn't adding up. Why?"




There's a big difference between

"yeah, I'd like to see the language revived throughout the country"

and

"yeah, I'd like to take classes and study and make/find opportunities to use a language I'm still learning with people completely outside my current social networks when there's no guarantee the language won't be dead in two generations anyway"

quote:

Define 'support'. 40% may want it revived, but there's no evidence that even 4% speak it habitually.

Support is used many times in this report, but the sense used for the 93% to me seems to be "to uphold or defend as valid or right".

To the extent that this leads to direct support, that is, more than just a favorable attitude, is not known, but it can be deduced from the numbers. Within that 93%, there are 40% who support revival. That's probably a good estimate of those within their lives who are directly supporting Irish, either by donations, or sending their kids to Gaelscoileanna, or some other means small or great. I would think of the 40% as an absolute low figure. It is probably nearer to the 93% mark for some direct support of some type. The others in this percentage support through not impeding the progress. The 7% seems to be the high mark of those who actively oppose Irish, in great or little ways. That's how I interpret the stats.

And support doesn't have to mean to speak. I don't speak Tongva, but I fully support the language.

I'm curious. Just who exactly are those (7%)types who actively oppose the Irish language. Strawboater/ bloomsday/any sport but GAA /died in the wool true blues harking back to the days of glorious empire types? Feic 'em I say, we'll get on just as well in spite of them. As anyone who has ever played hurling will know, sometimes you have to play the man as well as the ball if you are to remain on your feet.So, in advance I don't apologise one bit for my comments.
DMD

Are you suggesting that not being interested in Irish is unreasonable?

No. I was just anti-doting the rather moronic comments on the poll.

I have read the study with regard to support for the Irish language.
Indeed, a minority actively opposes Irish, supposedly 7%. If you look closer to the kind of support, you will well find representated the current situation. Only a minority is in favour of Irish to become the predominant language again all over Ireland, true revival. About half of the population are in favour of keeping the Gaeltacht as more or less Irish-speaking area; probably for nostalgic purposes. A further part of the population support not forgetting it completely outside the Gaeltacht and to increase spoken Irish moderately. I would put the figure of those who support true revival at not more than about one fifth. The majority passively supports Irish as relict from the past for nostalgic purposes.
Ní fheicim tacaíocht ghníomhach ag mórchuid an phobail. Níl an fonn ag formhór na ndaoine ach cuid bheag as seanamanna a choimeád.
Go n-éirí bhur nGaeilge libh!

From the report:

quote:

if one regards a "living language" as one which is used daily, in a non-institutional setting, then Irish is a living language for less than one in twenty of Irish speakers in Ireland

This is based on data from the 2006 Census.

Compare this with the 1891 Census.

quote:

The census returns for 1891 indicate that eight persons only in every 1,000 were unable to speak English [0.8%]; that 145 person in every 1,000 were bilingual [14.5%] and that 855 in every 1,000 were unable to speak Irish at all [85.5%].

- "A View of the Irish Language", Clóchuallacht Chathail Teoranta, Baile Átha Cliath 1969, Maureen Wall, p. 81

From where I'm standing, the biggest difference between now and the late 19th century is that many more people are willing to declare themselves Irish speakers, while the percentage of the popution who claim to be habitual/daily speakers has dropped significantly (from about 14.5% to 1.8%). By default I regard those in 1891 as habitual speakers as I believe the overwhelming majority were native speakers. This was before Conradh na Gaeilge was founded, this was before Irish had a prominent position in the schools, this was before the war of Independence etc.

So I don't accept the argument that the schools have been successful in creating many competent speakers who emerge and actually use the language.

If people are going to highlight reports which show a lot of support for Irish (and I do agree that it's a positive thing!) then equally one should consider the data which shows that most self proclaimed Irish speakers rarely or never speak the language once they've finished school. You can't have it both ways.

Something is seriously wrong if only 5% of Irish speakers actually speak the language on a regular basis.

I'm reminded of a quote by the great Douglas Hyde, who devoted most of his life to Irish.

quote:

If the Irish people are resolved to let the national language die, by all means let them. I believe the instinct of a nation is often juster than that of any individual. But this, at least no one can deny, that hitherto the Irish nation has had no choice in the matter.

Perhaps there should be more focus on those who have the ability to speak Irish but don't use it, and less on the 'Anglosphere', history and the Brits etc. Are dormant or 'lapsed' Irish speakers the enemy within?

Wish I had had thirteen years to study and learn Irish, believe me...

(Message edited by Danny2007 on January 15, 2010)

quote:

Perhaps there should be more focus on those who have the ability to speak Irish but don't use it

Agreed. But the answer is not to abandon Irish in the educational system; it is rather to create the conditions where more opportunities exist to speak Irish outside it.

The official languages act is one such measure. The distribution of Foinse with the Irish Independent another (and one which does without government money, and is therefore doubly positive).

But there will always be a vociferous minority who shout "down with Irish", just as there is a minority who are dedicated.

But 40% who want Irish revived is a lot more significant than 7% who want it discarded and forgotten.

You're right about that. I wouldn't characterise dropping the 'compulsory status' of Irish as abandonment, however.

With Irish-medium schools and compulsory Irish up to and including the Junior Cert in State schools, the choice would be available to parents and their children. Junior Infants can't make the choice, but by age twelve or so, I imagine many students either have an interest or dislike in Irish.

For what it's worth, I think it's only a matter of time until the position of Irish is seriously contested and then revised. And it's probably coming sooner rather than later. In the new multicultural (and multilingual) Ireland, it's inevitable imho.

I wonder how many fluent speakers have emerged from State schools in the past twenty years? My impression is almost all fluent speakers who weren't raised with Irish come from gaelscoileanna. Either that or they became fluent in adulthood on their own time.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on January 16, 2010)

I think the evidence is that if a subject is not necessary through to Leaving Cert, the numbers taking it plummet, particularly if it is seen as "hard". (Which Irish without doubt is for English speakers).

This can be seen in the difficulties getting students to study maths and sciences, even though at least once science and maths are matriculation requirements for many university courses.

And I understand that the numbers taking a foreign language in the UK have been badly affected by it no longer being a requirement at A level.

quote:

I wonder how many fluent speakers have emerged from State schools in the past twenty years? My impression is almost all fluent speakers who weren't raised with Irish come from gaelscoileanna. Either that or they became fluent in adulthood on their own time.

I know of several people who were exposed to Irish in an English medium school, usually by an enthusiastic teacher, who went on to become fluent. Few people achieve fluency in any language purely at school.

But in any case the course is being continuously revised, and will take the different needs into account.

From the draft strategy:

quote:

Ag an leibhéal iar-bhunoideachais, áit a bhfuil cláir i nGaeilge á dtairiscint ag trí leibhéal, cuirfear béim mhór ar inniúlacht cainte, éisteachta agus scríofa i nGaeilge a chothú agus cinnteofar athrú tábhachtach ina gcuirfear béim ar an nGaeilge mar theanga labhartha, le go mbeidh daltaí in ann cumarsáid agus idirghníomhú a dhéanamh ar bhealach nádúrtha agus go labharfar Gaeilge gach lá sna scoileanna.

quote:

Few people achieve fluency in any language purely at school.

I knew quite a few people who became somewhat fluent in German by spending three months in Germany in a total-immersion situation. Now when they came back and attended German class, they did not know book German, and the teacher said they made mistakes and needed to refine their speech. These students found it very difficult in the class to study German this way, and they can chatter in German all day about how they didn't like it. BUT it showed in my life how quickly an adult can take on a language in certain circumstances. I think the greatest language achievements take place outside of school because you are in situations unpredictable and a type of fluency develops as a means of coping (if everyone agrees to not resort to English). The classroom is better at providing a basis, refining the language with greater understanding and reflection, and reading and writing Irish, which may not happen much for some people outside of school.

Seán Tadhg Ó Gairbhí has an amusing column on this report in today's Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0119/1224262632815.html

quote:

Má tá tú á léamh seo, tá seans maith ann go bhfuil tú níos fearr as ná an gnáthdhuine. B’fhéidir go bhfuil post níos fearr agat ná mar atá ag an ngnáthdhuine nó go bhfuil níos mó oideachais ort ná mar atá ar an ngnáthdhuine.B’fhéidir go bhfuil d’fhón póca líon lán le hainmneacha Ghaeilgeoirí eile an élite nua. Nó b’fhéidir nach bhfuil. Ní foláir, áfach, go bhfuil rud éigin speisialta fút mar gurb ábhar taighde tú ag lucht léinn.

Agus, sea, tá rud éigin speisialta fút mar go bhfuil Gaeilge agat. Tá an méid sin fíor, cuma cén aicme lena mbaineann tú.