I am going to give you all a language learning tip, specifically tailored to Irish.

This one works, promise.

Look, I am not an native Irish speaker, I do not have perfect grammer or any danger of it. I do not even have a large functional vocabulary though I have a large vocabulary that I do not use.

Yet, I am often mistaken for a native speaker, especially by native speakers. People always speak Irish to me in the Gaeltacht, assuming I am from another Gaeltacht.

Aside from when drunk, when I have a slight Donegal accent in the South and a slight Mayo accent in Donegal I speak in my own east of Ireland accent.

How did I achieve this? It is quite simple.

First, you pick a dialect, alive or dead, it doesnt matter though close to your own accent is advisable as is picking a speaker of the same sex as yourself.

Pick a recording, pre 1950s if possible, the content doesnt matter though a story is best, the grammer doesnt matter either, it is the sounds we are listening for [and the lack of them on occasion].

Listen to this recording 3-5 mins max as often as possible and enjoy it - do not try and learn it. Feel it. Why not have a wee drink while you are at it?

When you listen to it say 150 times, try and speak along, then try and recite it. Believe me, you need to give it that much. DO NOT FORCE IT!

Et voila, perfect pronouncation. Not only that one story, but I assure you that it will have an overriding influence on everything you say in Irish.

Then you can pick another recording.

Bliain úr faoi mhaise.

(Message edited by GGN on December 31, 2009)

sounds a good tip, I'd like to try it. Where would you obtain an old pre-1950s recording of the kind you suggest?

You should find stuff on the internet even but if you tell me a dialect I should be able to advise you where you can get a good recording.

quote:

sounds a good tip, I'd like to try it. Where would you obtain an old pre-1950s recording of the kind you suggest?

There are two different Linguaphone Irish courses from the 1920s featuring spoken Irish on 78-rpm records.

You can also find some old recordings here:
http://dho.ie/doegen/

BTW, If possible try and maker sure they are not reading.

Also, there are some perfect recording for this purpose done after the fifties, Bab Feirtear, Uair a' Chloig Cois Teallaigh and Scéalt Cois Claidigh spring to mind.

There are a cupla of nice recording on the RBE site also.

http://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/en/audio/

http://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/ga/taifeadtaifuaimebealoidis/

There used to be a good recording of Baile na Sceilg Irish and of Acaill Irish online somewhere but I am damned if I can find it.

quote:

Aside from when drunk, when I have a slight Donegal accent in the South and a slight Mayo accent in Donegal I speak in my own east of Ireland accent.

Are you saying your model your Irish based on recordings of East Ulster Irish?

http://dho.ie/doegen/node/218


(Message edited by Danny2007 on January 01, 2010)

Not exactly, no.

However, as anyone who knows my views will know that I believe in the essential oneness of the gaelic language(s).

Therefore, my Irish is based on my personal preferences and on a range of ifluences.

And I always model my Irish on what I believe the listener will understand, I do not see the point in deliberaterly trying to be misunderstood which unfortuately a small minority of my fellow Gaels chose to do.

hey

why not speak in 1920s or 1950s english to?

to completely sound like an idiot?

Thanks for sharing your ideas, Ggn. I understand where you are coming from. I essentially did the same thing with Learning Irish and Buntús Cáinte. I had a walkman that repeated phrases over and over, and I learned non-anglicized phonemes from those tapes.

I find too much anglicized pseudo-Irish on the TV, although the occasional native speaker does shine through. There are some gems among the old recordings but the ignorant will be always be unaware of the true value of such things.

I believe it is possible to achieve authentic intelligible phonemes and combine them into a standardized pronunciation without turning Irish into an anglicized pidgin or creole in the process. Old recordings are important for preserving what Irish really is and protecting it from the onslaught of anglicization.

Good points Breandán.

Conchubhar,

I dont think the comparison with English is valid.

The reason why I stated pre-fifties is that many of thes recordings contain the full range of sounds in the Irish language.

You can speak whatever way you like, it is about learning and more specifically training yourself.

It is about influencing the rest of your speech.

For example, a twenty year old from Leitir Mór giving a paper in Uni in Galway will probably speech slightly different from their grandmother, nevertheless they have leanrt much from their grandmother - it is a root.

I assure you that one five minute recording will contain all need to sound a very authentic Irish speaker.

I agree with Ggn and Breandán but the learner needs to know what to look out for. I remember sessions in An Teanglann long ago in UCD where we were supposed to learn pronunciation. I don't know how well I succeeded in imitating the voice on the tape but some of those around me hadn't a clue what they were supposed to imitate. Even now words like "Lá breá", "nuair a chuala mé an glór na cuaiche" or "Ar fhreagair sé thú? D'fhreagair" would cause me to pronounce them with care. Who knows about "srónaíl ar l leathan; b caol, r caol agus a fada; srónaíl ar n leathan, défhoghar ua agus r caol.

To hear a Conamara native speaker say the words "an fheadóg" is to realise that our current orthography for Irish, much as I like it, does not convey what is going on in the spoken language. An fhéadóg sounded to me as if the n of the article was made slender by the following fhe- and seemed also to have that "manyana" sound, the peculiar n sound represented by the tilde ~ over an n.

In spoken Irish caol le caol and leathan le leathan are applied in pronunciation far more often than in the written language and apply from word to word as well as from syllable to syllable within a word. Elision is also used more often. In addition the "old Dinneen spelling" showing syllables lost in modern speech is still heard in many words in many areas.

We need to listen to good speakers and imitate as best we can but we need to know what to listen for. Once we know what the distinctive features of the pronunciation are we can imitate them. Not all dialects have preserved the same set of features. Listen to speakers from Ceathrú Thaidhg in North Mayo as represented in the recordings of the seanchaí John Henry and hear Irish to die for.

Since Shell decided to bring in the gas from the "Corrib Gas Field" into Erris we have all become familiar with that dialect spoken with amazing and effortless fluency by a number of the protestors.

Ggn has alluded to a most important aspect of learning Irish. We need to know the distinctive features of Irish pronunciation. Once we do we can use them to speak good Irish in our own Dublin, or Oxford, or New York accents. Language is merely communication.

Using the features of Irish pronunciation -- in a song for example -- is better than singing gibris that no Irish speaker can understand. Worse still singing clearly but missing every single feature of the pronunciation in every word. Ugggh!

That's another deilín of mine: supposed "Gaelic" songs recorded by well-paid artistes that are completely unintelligible or mispronounced. I wonder is it a con-job? Recorded on the assumption that no one would understand the words even if they weren't melded together in one incomprehensible drone? Don't get me started. Even Raidio na Gaeltachta broadcasts some of these non-lingual performances on the strength of the artiste's name.

This idea is definitely a good one.

A physicist-friend with an interest in sound once told me that if a child isn't exposed to native Innuit before the age of three they will never perfectly be able to reproduce the full range of sounds native to the language except in truly gifted cases. I'm beginning to wonder if similar isn't true of Irish also, therefore I worry when I hear folk going into teaching or pre-schools who can't produce slender 'r's etc.

As adults, we might never get it entirely right, but we can do better than learn to speak fluent Irish with an English phonology imposed on it. I spent a whole day on Ó Siadhal's fold-out sheet on pronouncing Irish plus the cassette and since then have never looked back. Likewise, my mp3 player contains only native-speaker recordings. The best compliment I ever received was when a Tory Islander told me I sounded like a native speaker, but of which dialect she couldn't be sure.

The comparison with English above would, I think, be valid if English sounds had been eroded en masse within a few generations by an onslaught of French, for example. In such a case recording of English speakers from the 1920s would be very useful to recover authentic English pronunciation. We all know that languages naturally evolve, but last time I checked, evolution and hybridisation weren't the same thing.

Very good and consructive postings, a chairde.

It is indeed important to get some degree of mastery on the distinctive features of pronunciation. It is a very good investment in time and effort.

Enunciating in a non-native language is similar to skiing down a slalom course; it functions better if you are not crashing into the gates all the time.

There is an exponential advantage to be gained by getting the sounds right because it not only gives the speaker a better speaking facility but it becomes a constant source of encouragement.


We need to know the distinctive features of Irish pronunciation. Once we do we can use them to speak good Irish in our own Dublin, or Oxford, or New York accents.

Exactly. If the distinctive features are there, there is no need for complete imitation.

"if English sounds had been eroded en masse within a few generations by an onslaught of French, for example."

This is precisely what happened to the sounds of English, and, more drastically, the grammar and vocabulary as well...only it was long before the days of recording.

"This is precisely what happened to the sounds of English, and, more drastically, the grammar and vocabulary as well...only it was long before the days of recording."

Indeed. The reconstructed pronunciations on my "Teach Yourself Old English" CD give that away to me. The tide of language change carries on regardless of any would-be Cnuts, but so long as we can preserve the sound system of Irish, I believe we should, otherwise we will be preparing the way for greater changes to the language in the future. I suppose what I am trying to say, is that continuity is to be preferred to rupture, especially when dealing with the revival of a weak patient like Irish.

Learners of Irish who actually live in Ireland have one major advantage: the English spoken by the uneducated in their community probably carries many of the sounds of Irish. Ask anyone to "imitate a culchie" and you will hear it all. Much of it anyway. We don't have far to go to hear the sounds of Irish. To know that we are hearing them is another thing and to know why and when to use them is another.

Talk of CDs, MP3s and recordings of native speakers shows there is no excuse for bad pronunciation. Native speakers also need elocution lessons even in their own dialect. They may be unaware of gradual changes taking place due to their aquisition of English. And that is not a bad thing. Think of the mess some of us make of English pronunciation - or French, German, Finnish, Serbo-Croat, or your own mother-tongue!

At the risk of bringing everyone down on top of me like a ton of bricks I suggest that us learners should not be content with listening to only one speaker or only one dialect. Some dialects make much of one pronunciation feature and ignore others. We should try and listen to all the dialects -- just like they do for Leaving Cert.

It is said that canúintí na Mumhan are best for grammar and form (foirmeacha táite srl) and the rest are better for pronunciation. Don't confine yourself to one.

Nor is it necessary to confine oneself to the ultra-traditional speakers: there are native speakers who use all the modern economic and sociological jargon as easily as the fishermen and turfcutters use theirs and their Irish is perfect. I'm thinking of the broadcasters on RTÉ Raidio na Gaeltachta. They are brilliant.

Students seeking to use Irish in their job need to aquire a big vocabulary -- quickly. I'm sick of the exculpatory phrase "mar a deir an Béarla" whenever a common term needs to be used. A little preparation with www.focal.ie would obviate the use of such a cop-out phrase. Let's raise the bar.

Ooops! There's an error in one of my posts above: I should have written "nuair a chuala mé glór na cuaiche" when I heard the voice of the cuckoo. (How many other errors are there I wonder?)

I've noticed that many of the older Irish lesson books treat correct pronunciation as fundamentally important and go into it in some detail early on (it's significance is stressed as early as the preface to "Introduction to Studies in Modern Irish" and Shán O Cuív wrote at least two books specifically dealing with instruction in correct pronunciation).
Nowadays, though, it seems to be ignored - anything will do. Why?
I think part of the problem is the misguided belief that some Irish enthusiasts and teachers seem to have that the easier Irish is made the more people will be attracted to it.
They're also so (understandably) pleased to see any interest in the language from someone that they seem to fear that any criticism of a learner's standard or suggestion that they could do better will turn the learner right off the language altogether.

quote:

However, as anyone who knows my views will know that I believe in the essential oneness of the gaelic language(s).

I had always assumed the consensus was that Irish and Scottish Gaelic were two seperate languages but I've been coming across views like yours more and more in recent years.
The most convincing argument for it I've heard would be the claim that Gaelic speakers themselves, in both Ireland and Scotland, view it as one - a Scottish speaker hearing an Irish Gael's speech would recognise it as basically being the same as his own.

Is this view as widespread as has been claimed?
Also, is it more common amongst one group of Gaels, Irish or Scots, than the other?
(The reason I ask this is that I'd gotten the impression that many Scots are very eager to point out that Irish and Scots Gaelic are not the same.)

quote:

Learners of Irish who actually live in Ireland have one major advantage: the English spoken by the uneducated in their community probably carries many of the sounds of Irish.

Shán O Cuív makes much of this in his books.

P.S. "uneducated"??? "Unpretentious" sounds better to me :)

No, educated is correct becuase of the normalising effect of education on speech. Sin mar a bhíonn sé. Dá mbeadh oideachas ceart Gaeilge againn, bheadh aicme ann a mbeadh blas neamhspleách ar an taobh tíre arbh as dóibh é. Agus as san síolródh fíor Caighdeán Oifigiúil, mar a bhíodh ann agus na Bardscoileanna i réim!

quote:

Pick a recording, pre 1950s if possible, the content doesnt matter though a story is best, the grammer doesnt matter either, it is the sounds we are listening for

GGN,

Any recommendations as far as clips go? Most of the ones I've found for Conamara (the dialect I'm most interested in) from the 30s, 40s and 50s are quite poor in terms of audio quality.

Caint Ros Muc, The Irish of Iorras Aithneach etc.

James,


It is a minority view, except in Ballycastle, Belfast, etc.

I am not pushing the idea. It is just my view. Based on my studies of Antrim and Classical Irish and my travells.

For me, my language is from Ros to Cléire. From Ceathrú Thaidhg to Peel.

Danny,

I will get back to you.

"Listen to speakers from Ceathrú Thaidhg in North Mayo as represented in the recordings of the seanchaí John Henry and hear Irish to die for."

Cén áit a gheobhainn na taifeadaí sin meas tú? Chuala mé gur foilsíodh leabhar agus dlúthdhiosca cúpla bliana ó shin.An bhfuil siad fós í gcló?

http://www.gaeltacht.eu/fnewsletter1.html

Comhar Cumann Dhún Chaocháin put out a great CD-Rom a few years ago.

I copied my copy of Scéalta Cois Cladaigh from the library.

The Irish on it is simply sublime - and I rarely judge Irish.

Regarding Scots Gaidhlig and Irish / An Ghaeilge: I visited Barra, Lewis, Harris, Uibhist a Deas is Uibhist a Tuaidh (?) and of course, Skye a few times more than twenty years ago. I found that having read the Gaidhlig for many years I could get by with Irish pronounced as if it were Gaidhlig.

I was told once that there was now "a bilingual programme" that allowed children to be taught through Gaidhlig as well as English. "Chan eil é againn anseo: as Lunnainn an tídsear." (Please correct my Gaidhlig. I'm sure it is v. basic.) I realised that our insistence on all teachers having Irish avoided that problem.

Another less complimentary comment illustrated a degree of snobbery between the two languages: We call Irish "tinker's Gaidhlig" I was told in McLaren's in Glaschu. Hmmmn.

Twenty years ago you could hear mothers speaking an Ghaidhlig to their children in Barra. Indeed on the boat to Uibhist I heard people speaking the Gaidhlig who had been reared in Newfoundland. Staffin was in those days 80% Gaidhlig speaking. Except for the "incomers" who had bought holiday houses or hotels etc.

My view is that Irish-speakers should flock to the Gaidhealtachd and read their poetry and stories, listen to their songs. If nothing else you'll enjoy it. Súil eile fós. Enrich your Irish. It is almost the same vocabulary but used differently.

One language? No. But close enough to enjoy.

quote:

It is a minority view, except in Ballycastle, Belfast, etc.

I am not pushing the idea. It is just my view. Based on my studies of Antrim and Classical Irish and my travells.

Perhaps it's a view that will grow.
As tired old prejudices and foolish misunderstandings die away it does seem to me that people on either side of Sruth na Maoile are increasingly coming to appreciate the profoundly deep links and similarities between Ireland and Scotland. So much - from folklore to individual tunes - are shared it would be absurd and simply impossible to try to "divide the spoils" between the two (three including Man, of course) countries.
I'd imagine this will have at least some impact on how all Gaels view their languages.

quote:

Another less complimentary comment illustrated a degree of snobbery between the two languages: We call Irish "tinker's Gaidhlig" I was told in McLaren's in Glaschu. Hmmmn.

It would actually be quite interesting if the Gaelic of the Highland tinkers/travellers was closer to Irish or more archaic than the Gaelic of the general population. As I understand it they are native highlanders and not Irish travellers who've moved into the highlands so what would explain it?

That said, many Scots, heavily influenced by the anti-Irish and Catholic bigotry of the 18th and 19th centuries, went out of their way to "prove" that Scottish Gaelic had as little in common with Irish as possible - suggesting it was the "original" Gaelic, more "authentic", "superior" etc.
These views are very evident in the introductions to many (thankfully not all) dictionaries and grammars produced in Scotland in the 19th century. I'd be surprised if this mindset hadn't left an enduring mark on many Scots down to today.

Father George Thompson, a Galloway priest, former nationalist MP and a great linguist, once told me about the existence of a pamphlet written by a Hebridean minister, who argued that Scottish and Irish Gaelic were entirely separate entities and had no recent common origin. He had never seen a copy himself and was hopeful that I might track one down for him (which I have bever managed to do). He wanted to read it purely to see what arguments an educated man could muster to support such an outlandish position. Anyone else heard of it/ seen it ?

quote:

Danny,

I will get back to you.

GRMA

Certainly the older recordings could provide an Irish less influenced by English, and you might have some sounds more prominant, like the four-way distinction of Rs in Ulster, which is giving way to a three-way. But also some of the recordings are not very good because they're old. There are excellent speakers out there who are being recorded right now too. Find the good stuff wherever it is.

As a native English speaker I can understand any other English speaker worldwide regardless of their dialect or country of origin because there is an official standard for pronunciation and spelling.. Otherwise it would be impossible.
Trying to speak the language like some rural chap in a village you may have visited once etc is counterproductive and somewhat pretentious.

Quite simply... all Irish kids have to be taught exactly the same language rules and pronunciation --
The language needs a very strong center ground first.
Leave the natives alone!
If we keep putting it on the native speakers to 'save' the language the younger speakers will naturally rebel and speak English.

We need managers and agents who actively seek and promote talented 'entertainment' people who unashamedly speak and write Irish within the English language realm. The more anti-establishment with a hint of nationalism it is, the more it will succeed..

Time to play dirty ... folks

The issue is that there is no pronunciation standard for Irish. In that context, GGN's advice is a good substitute for immersion in a living Gaelatcht.

Note that he is advising imitating pronunciation, not vocabulary or register.

quote:

The more anti-establishment with a hint of nationalism it is, the more it will succeed..

I don't agree. I think that would backfire, because it would conform neatly to the stereotypes promoted by the "Irish is dead, only kept alive by die hard terrorists" brigade.

What we need is visible Irish speakers across the spectrum.

For example, I noticed yesterday when Finance Minister Brian Lenihan was being interviewed on RTÉ news that he had one of the Foras na Gaeilge "Gaeilge Anseo" signs on his desk in the office.

quote:

I think that would backfire

I think it would too because we sometimes seem to forget that a large swath of the island is part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". This part has had some pretty nice strides lately in Irish revival, and there is cooperation on the two sides, but the possibility of more troubles is not as slight as some might think. If we think the anti-Irish language campaign has had some sway on public opinion in the 26 counties, just think how much the people in the other 6 have been bombarded with disinformation campaigns (on both ssides), and how much more Irish speaking is bound up with stereotypes.

- "What we need is visible Irish speakers across the spectrum."

Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leis sin.

- "I don't agree. I think that would backfire, because it would conform neatly to the stereotypes promoted by the "Irish is dead, only kept alive by die hard terrorists" brigade."

Ní hé sin an fhadhb dar liomsa a Aonghuis. An príomhfhadhb ná go bhféachann an chuid is mó de na hÉireannaigh óga ar an Ghaeilge mar bheith ró-thuathúil agus nach bhfuil an teanga bainteach go leor lena saol laethúil, le saol cathrach.

Sea, ach feictear domhsa go mbeadh "anti-establishment with a hint of nationalism" chomh passé céanna!

Breis daoine ar nós Seán Óg Ó hAilpín agus Kíla atá uainn!

Réiltíní le Gaeilge ón gCathair. An deacracht ná teacht thar doirseoirí D4 na meáin cumarsáide!

Chuala mé duine éigin ag caint le Ryan Tubridy ar maidin faoin ceol traidisiúnta - ag léiriú go bhfuil 750,000 baill ag Comhaltas agus an ceol ag bláthú - ach nach bhfeictear ar RTÉ é seachas nuair atáthar ag caint faoin "seana-saol".

Is cosúil go bhfuil an "All Ireland Talent Show" breac le daoine óga ag dul don gceol traidisiúnta, agus Gaeilge ag sciar mhaith de na láithreoirí. Ach is annamh an taobh seo de shaol na hÉireann ar an teilifís.

Tá cogadh teangan ar siúl.

Bhíodh de nós ag lucht deartha comharthaí poiblí an BÉARLA a chur i gcinnlitreacha móra troma dubha agus an Ghaeilge a chur i gcló beag bídeach éadtrom iodálach i ndath éigin nach bhfeicfeadh súil daonna ná ceamara dá fheabhas.

Tá Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla ag cur deireadh leis sin.

Bhíodh de nós ag roinnt tiománaithe bus rolla na logainmneacha a shocrú ar bhealach go mbeadh an t-ainm i mBéarla le feiceáil go follasach agus an Ghaeilge ceilte go maith.

Tá an córas ríomhaire atá anois ann ag cur cosc leis an gclaonbheart sin. Feictear idir Ghaeilge agus Bhéarla ar a seal anois. Cloistear Gaeilge ar an LUAS agus ar thraenacha eile.

Fiú má tá Gaeilge ar taispeáint go soiléir in áit fágtar faoin té atá i bhfeighil an cheamara a chinneadh an bhfeicfear ar scáileán na teilifíse é.

Caithfear oiread Gaeilge agus is féidir a chur ar taispeáint i ngach aon áit sna cathracha chun go bhfeicfidh is go bhfoghlaimeoidh an t-aos óg. TACA abú! An cuimhin le haon duine an fhograíocht dhátheangach a bhíodh ag THE BODY SHOP? Bhíodh sé ar fheabhas ach costasach. Tharraing sé Gaeilgeoirí isteach agus scanraigh sé Béarlóirí. Sin mar ba cheart an chomharthaíocht a bheith: MMM - Mórtasach, Maoiteach, Misniúil.

Scéilín beag eile: Oifig Dhíolta Foilsiúcháin an Rialtais, BÁC, a bhíodh ina Gaeltacht nuair a bhí mise óg rinneadh athchóiriú uirthi. D'imigh na Gaeilgeoirí ar pinsean. Cuireadh leacht créumha sa bhalla ag an doras in onóir don té a cheadaigh an t-athchóiriú (? t- ??) I mBéarla amháin. Rinne mise gearán leis an Aire, le Ceannasaí na hOifige etc. Baineadh an leacht anuas. Blianta fada ina dhiaidh sin tá an poll gránna sa bhalla fós. Ní cuimhin le héinne an leacht. Ná an Ghaeilge. Níl smid san oifig sin anois -- ná sa Státseirbhís i gcoitinne cheapfainn. Tá am na hagóidíochta buailte linn, a chairde.

Aguisín maidir leis an bpoll úd i Sráid Thigh Laigheán. Bhíodh leabhra an Ghúm á dhíol ann, ó tharla gurbh foilsitheoir de chuid an Rialtais iad. Mar sin, bhíodh cúinne Gaeilge ann. Níl níos mó - le dosean bliain nó mar sin.

As a native English speaker I can understand any other English speaker worldwide regardless of their dialect or country of origin because there is an official standard for pronunciation and spelling.. Otherwise it would be impossible.

I don't want to go off on a tangent here but this common comprehension among all native English speakers is of quite recent vintage and has more to do with the levelling effect of global communication and CNN-Ameringlish than any official standard for pronunciation and spelling (what would that official standard be: rhotic or non-rhotic, for example?)

Previous to the global communications era English speaking people had great difficulties understanding each other.

(Message edited by ormondo on January 06, 2010)

Understand that Ormondo, but we are dealing with the now.