It has occured to me that programmes like Ros na Rún have a great opportunity to introduce new Irish words to the Irish speaking public rather than using english words which I think is lazy Irish. For instance recently with the opening of a beauty salon on Ros na Rún the word massage is used when suaithearacht could be used in it's place or sólann for spa instead of the english word spa. Otherwise no new Irish words will come into use and any new English words won't be translated to Irish leading to too much code mixing and a creole language.

Really, now. If a single television series were the sole medium by which Irish-speakers were exposed to the Irish language (and what a sad state of affairs that would be!), then you might have a point. But it's completely unreasonable to hold the producers of the show to a higher standard than even native speakers hold themselves to. As it is, I daresay there is less borrowing and code-switching on Ros na Rún than there is in even the most hardcore Gaeltacht areas. It's a fictional series, but it's set in contemporary society, not some alternative reality where English is a mysterious foreign tongue rather than a language every Irishman is fluent in.

quote:

For instance recently with the opening of a beauty salon on Ros na Rún the word massage is used when suaithearacht could be used in it's place or sólann for spa instead of the english word spa.

Funny, I guess almost nobody would understand suaithearacht, and I'm not sure sólann means "spa", at least it's not what I learnt.

quote:

Otherwise no new Irish words will come into use and any new English words won't be translated to Irish leading to too much code mixing and a creole language.

A Creole language is something completely different. You should read (maybe on wikipedia) what "Creole" means.
According to what you seem to believe, English is a Creole language (much more than Irish !).
You know, more than 66% of the English vocabulary is French or Latin... Did it harm the English language? Looks like English is not the most endangered language... :-)

Hmm...

Could it be possible that the producers of Ros na Rún, and for that matter, the creaters of all the dramas being shown on TG4 do have a responsibility for the languages being spoken?

After all, TG4 is the primary means by which people are encountering the Irish language in an entertainment format. Very few people are rushing to TG4 for the News, or their documentaries, which do tend to use less English borrowings than their dramas and mini movies like Ros na Rún, Seacht, Aifric, Rásaí na Gaillimhe, and the like. Just look at their ratings, these are the programs that are getting the most viewers.

Which is fine, that's not the question here.

What is the question is should these types of programs have to accept the responsibility for being the primary demonstration for Irish? People are watching them. Not just fluent and native speakers who are able to get beyond the differences of real spoken Irish and the Irish being used on these shows.

Children and students alike are watching these shows and being shaped by them. They are having an influence on the Irish learning process as people copy what they see and hear being OK to do.

One of the reasons they go out of their way to include English is to show that English and Irish can co-exist. It doesn't have to be English or Irish only. However, what is the cost of equal inclusion? Is it possible to turn Irish into a new creole? Of cours it is. It has happened before to languages in history, it will happen again.

Another reason they go out of their way to include English is to increase their audience by getting more English speaking people involved with the story. They want to combine their Irish and English audiences into thinking that it is "cool" to be able to switch back and forth without thought.

And the last major reason that I can think of for their use of English is that there are times when Irish doesn't have the ability (vocabulary or concept) to express what is intended for an English audience. So they use the English because the know it will be understood this way.

I don't think it is them being lazy, as every word that is muttered in front of the camera is created by some person at some point. It's like saying that a famous painter painted the sky blue because he was too lazy to create a better color. That's just not true or hard to justify. This is their profession, their life. It is something they take very seriously and spend a lot of thought on.

Ah L...

You must have posted while I was writing...LOL

Actually many people do consider English to be a creole. And did it hurt the language? Well I suppose that's relative question.

Ask a speaker of Old English and they might say yes. It destroyed our language.

Ask a speaker of Middle English who are more comparable to the Irish speakers of today and they might say something like "There's no harm because the languages can co-exist, just look around you now."

Ask a speaker of Modern English, and they might say something like "I thought we always spoke this way."

LOL

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on December 04, 2009)

What makes the uniqueness of a language is not the origin of its vocabulary, but rather the way the language works, its grammar, its idioms, the way it expresses things.
English is full of Latin and Romance words and yet it is a Germanic language and not a Romance one at all.

Irish has many Latin, French and English words but you even don't notice most of them because their spelling can't let you know it... and Irish isn't a Romance language nor a Germanic one.

Irish with many English loanwords but correct grammar, pronunciation and idioms is Irish, while Irish with only Celtic words but with grammar mistakes, an English pronunciation and idioms translated from English isn't Irish anymore...

Aontaím leat, a Lughaidh.

And neologisms which are not naturally accepted into Gaeltacht speech can't really count as "normal" Irish - they are Inkhorn words. It takes time for languages to absorb new words for general use.

Maidir le "sólann", I would understand it to mean "lounge"

This blog post from a Gaelatcht man explains it well

(Message edited by aonghus on December 05, 2009)

Coindisionar (conduisionar?), d(u)isbhaisear :-)
An dtaitneann siad seo leat a Aonghus?

Thiocfadh cuid mhaith focal Béarla a Ghaelú mar seo, síleam, mar a rinneadh ó thús na staire...

Isnt it about time we stopped taking a Microscope or a magnifying glass to Gaeilge , i honestly believe that you cannot help yourselfs ,

@Lughaidh

I bhfírinne, is cuma liom. Is féidir nath nó focal nua a thugann an brí leis a chumadh, nó is féidir an focal Béarla a thabhairt isteach sa teanga agus ligean don chaint dul i bhfeidhm air.

Má ghlactar le focal, cuma as cén foinse, go maith.

Sampla mhaith: Tá leabhar ó thús an chéad seo chaite agam ina bhfuil an intriacht "Well" scríofa mar sin. Anois is gnách é scríobh mar Bhuel.

Sixty years ago my sainted mother told me that the English for "poncaisín" was .... pin cushion. Years later - half a lifetime later - a neon advertisement high on a city centre building in Nairobi said "PLAYERS NDIO NAMBA WANI". My guide told me it meant "Players are number one." Living languages take words use them for a while and discard them again.

What a futile discussion it is among learners -- most of us living at a distance from those who speak the language among themselves in the warmth of their homes or the comfort of their local -- to be criticising the use of this word or that in a language we are supposed to be trying to learn. Some remain on the periphery constantly harping on about "good Irish" and "béarlachas".

Mise? Tosaím liom féin. Déanaim iarracht an Ghaeilge a labhairt is a scríobh. Bím ag iarraidh rud éigin taitneamhach a léamh nó a chloisteáil i gcónaí. Aithním an cineál Gaeilge a thaitníonn liom. "Seanchas an Táilliúra" mar shampla. Léigh mé leabhar as Inis Eoghain le gairid: "An Fear Deiridh den Sloinne" i nGaeilge. Suimiúil.

Whatever about "transliterations" (poncaisín) or "inkhorn words" (I like that) those of us here on daltaí might do better to take an existing piece of writing, attempt to analyse and understand the vocabulary and structures, and then try and write some Irish ourselves. Who among the learners understands my last paragraph?

Should I tell my son that a tortilla is a ... what! I have no English word to call a tortilla that would make any sense. What would you call a tortilla in Irish? What about wassail, as I posed in another thread. When there are two competing words, that is a different story, but I think people are posing words that were never in the running to be used by Irish speakers for the concept. Sure a few Irish neologisms will come into use, but just taking each English word and replacing it with a so-called Irish one will not do. Irish is already filled with words from other languages -- seomra, páiste, beoir, tábla and bord, etc. and people don't cringe and ask for "authentic" replacements. You're asking people to ignore the fact that they all know English and will draw on that source to express themselves sometimes. Not to mention that Ireland can't move itself away from England. There will always be an influence, both ways.

Taidhgìn,

Aontaìm. Ach ar an làmh eile diùltaim focail cosùil le baisigeal compùtàr, cìbiord a ùsàid os rud è nach dtaitnìonn siad le lucht foghlamtha.

Is fearr liom rothar, rìomhaire agus mèarchlàr.

It cuts both ways.

Tuigimse,a Thaidhgín.We're ( local reading group)having fun with 'Rúin' le Patricia Scanlan.Some of the 'neologisms' are quite good 'Lomaire faiche/lawnmower mar shampla.And others are a bit clunky.Some parts read as if English has been translated a bit too literally and English word order retained.On the other hand it is making us think.One of the ladies - who is very fluent- will say 'OK,if you think it's béarlachas,how would you write it?'

Btw 'Spa' - it's Flemish is it not? a toponym,I always thought.Some of these borrowings will vanish anyhow ,in time:I mean who remembers filofaxes?They were all the rage in the 80s!

My pet hate is the Tourist Board moniker 'Fáilte Ireland'.This makes no sense i mBéarla nó i nGaeilge.Besides which it runs two vowels together.I still call it Bórd Fáilte just out of lazyness.My kids use aréir,inné in texts as they are shorter than the English equivalent.Brevity and lazyness will yet come to our aid.

Irish will expand and develop through word-smiths. What I mean is, the language is enriched by linguistic art -- literature, films, etc. Think of someone like Shakespeare for English. Many of his coinings are with us, not only words but phrases and style. Every great writer who makes an impact will have a long lasting influence on the language. There are also trends, which will come and go and probably will have a small influence on the language over time. I've seen so many over my own lifetime. A word-smith can skillfully borrow English and incorporate it into Irish without a hint of complaint, because you'll be delight by the art. And not only English, but other languages too.

Probably a bigger complaint is directed toward the dumbing of language in general. In general I think that there is a lower level of education of children, and language education is suffering. There is a general trend to weaken standards or set no standards at all. You don't want to judge somebody or hurt their feelings or cause them to have self-esteem problems. But I think that is a disservice because then they go around life interviewing for jobs and what-not not being able to express themselves clearly and concisely. I'm sure Irish English is riddled with stuff we'd complain about too, right? Clear and eloquent language doesn't just happen; it is engendered through higher thought and exercised through communication. So you have to go to the education system, and of course cultural priorties, to address an issue like this, I think.

A parallel argument, though, would be whether Irish will in the near future be a top-down language or a bottom-up language. Will the language be formed by art and perhaps government boards, or will it be formed by the colloquial language even among the kids learning who are forming their own colloquial Irish based on their lives? Or even a mix of both?

When I began learning, I thought, "What a rip-off, I don't want to learn English. I already know that!" Then I realized that Irish wasn't this pure unsullied language like it is made out to be by some. I then focused rather on good Irish, which I think will give one an ability to communicate with most people, convey a message of dignity, and avoid the pitfall of purely artificial language. There were/are similar movements in English to "purify" it of foreign elements (because she's been such a harlot all these years) by replacing such words as dictionary with word-book. Some are interesting, but in general they sound wooden and smack of a purely academic process, written from ivory towers.

Feictear dom gur cleachtas nua-aimseartha é focal - ar ainm ruda nua é i dteanga eachtrannach - a thiontú d'aon ghnó isteach sa teanga dhúchais. I gcás teanga láidir san anallód nach raibh faoi chois nó faoi bhrú ag an teanga as a dtáinig an focal nua samhlaítear dom gur slogadh agus gur díleádh an focal nua le caitheamh na haimsire agus go raibh cruth dúchasach ar an bhfocal nua ag deireadh an phróisis.

Toisc go leor ama a bheith ann leis an bhfocal eachtrannach a "dhúchasú" níor cuireadh an teanga ghlactha an fhocail as riocht.

Caitear cur san áireamh nach mbíodh de ghnáth ar chumas phobal na teanga a ghlacadh an focal nua ach an focal nua a fhuaimniú sa chóras foghraíochta a bhí acu féin. Mar sin do thosaigh dúchasú an fhocail nua ar a laghad tríd é a fhuaimniú de réir rialacha na teanga féin.

Samhlaítear dom gur mar sin a gaelíodh na focail amhail "seomra" etc thuasluaite.

Ach sa lá atá inniu ann fuaimníonn muintir na Gaeltachta na focail Bhéarla mar fhocail Bhéarla toisc an Béarla a bheith ar a gcumas acu amhail teanga dhúchais. Agus is beag an am a bhíonn ann le cruth Gaelach a chur ar an rabharta focal.

Ach Diabhal a bhfuil a fhios agam conas an fhadhb a réiteach - más fadhb í.

(Message edited by ormondo on December 05, 2009)

Taidhgín,

"...What a futile discussion it is among learners -- most of us living at a distance from those who speak the language among themselves in the warmth of their homes or the comfort of their local -- to be criticizing the use of this word or that in a language we are supposed to be trying to learn. Some remain on the periphery constantly harping on about "good Irish" and "béarlachas"..."

I think the reason we must harp so much is not because we are confused on the outside, rather we do it because we cannot see those on the inside harping.

It is extremely frustrating when Irish speakers say things like "don't worry about it" or "everything's OK."

My personal favorite is when I am told things like "If you really want learn Irish, then just come to the Gaeltacht, learn Irish, and quit your bitching."

I mean come on now, really? Really??? Why does anyone have to go to the Gaeltacht to learn? Why is Irish so special that real modern Irish can only "truly be learned" in a specified region? Shouldn't I be able to learn "real" Irish just as easily in Galway New York, as I can in Galway Ireland?

I mean it can be done with Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, French, Italian, Swahili, Hindi....just about every other language in the world. But for some reason, Irish is different. It often feels as if Irish is relying on the same isolationist mentality today that kept it alive in the past.

This thread was meant to address the laziness of the Irish speakers. I think the real laziness is being shown by those in Ireland who claim to have a love and desire to spread the language, but have done nothing to prove it. Those who have the ability to create good quality learning materials and learning opportunities in the modern day, but have just sat back, waiting for someone else to do something and then criticize those who attempt it or ask for their help.

TG4 and RnaG are about the only real resources outside learners have to hear the living language. RnaG has done a wonderful job, in terms of minimizing their use of English in their shows. Now to be fair, they do use English now and then, but who is usually doing it, the younger presenters. But given they were shown this example; one cannot really blame them for following it.

TG4 on the other hand is different creature all together. I honestly feel their usage of English is intentional. And this could be a really bad thing because more people are seeing this. And more than likely they are going to copy what they see being done here more. And if they see people mixing the two, then they are going to do it also. And if English is their primary language, which is true for most of the people who watch it, then there is a higher probability that the use of English over the Irish will take the lead in their speaking. Why use the Irish, when people are using the English instead?

quote:

baisigeal compùtàr

cf Standard Scottish Gaelic : baidhsagail agus coimpiutair.
You find these words in the Scottish Gaelic dictionaries. They say "tì" (tea) and "tìdsear" (teacher) too...
Welsh too is full of English words spelt in the Welsh way (siop...)

cwestin = question

(Welsh)

"cwestiwn", w i'n meddwl.

Cibith thig "ceist" ón Laidin, dar liom (quaestio nó rud ineacht mar sin).

Sin a deir MacBain, pé scéal é.

ceisd
a question, so Irish, Early Irish ceist; from Latin quæstio

Sin ar rud - ní gá gurbh ón mBéarla a tháinig gach focal a bhfuil cuma an Bhéarla air.

Do chinnúint, I know from personal experience of several people who have learnt Irish fluently without ever setting foot in Ireland, never mind in the Gaeltacht. Séamas Ó Neachtain has even had a novel published.

Ach ní fhaca mé oiread agus abairt iomlán uaitse i nGaeilge riamh.

Aonghus,

I am certain there are.

It's just that the ability to learn the language outside of Ireland is horribly difficult. Now I will be the first to say that the internet has helped. However, when it comes to resources it sucks...

I started learning with Teach Yourself, then I started working with Irish on Your Own, and finally I started working with Learning Irish. The first two were nice, but they don't really give a person a place to go after them.

Learning Irish is a very serious course, but it is not for the average learner.

As I look at all the online Irish language sites, most of them look as if all they did was take the same teach yourself books that I have...and just put them online.

Why do I say that? Because they say the same things (half the time word for word), they use the exact same examples, and they leave you almost in the exact same place the books do.

That's a little fishy to me, and frankly, very lazy. I will give them credit for taking the time to make the sites. But if you are going to take the time and effort, at least make your sites a little more personal and maybe offer something new that you learned along the way.

Now I must be fair because I have come across some good websites also, but the majority that I am seeing is all the same. The worst part is that a lot of these sites are being made by Ireland herself.

quote:

The first two were nice, but they don't really give a person a place to go after them.

I think the place to go was to some live action or the closet things -- Ireland, the Gaeltacht, a local school, or courses that feature live speakers like "Speaking Irish". One of the greatest complaints I find is that there is a lack of opportunities to use the language and build fluency. I think this is a real problem that has to just be worked out over time as the speaking community builds itself. The people within the community needs to reach out to its other members and make the connections to help one another. Have you tried contacting the three Iowan teachers listed here?

Using the language is possible on Skype or MSN with people you meet on forums like this one. I have some friends I talk only Irish with, when I have enough time at night. It's very nice and it's a good opportunity to practice Irish if there are no Irish speakers around.

What's this I hear about 'bicyle' being preferred over 'rothar' in the Gaeltacht? Or at least in Conamara? Is rothar viewed as too 'book Irish'?

I also chuckle every time Máirtín Tom Sheánín says 'meat factory' on Comhrá. Which seems to be quite a lot.

There is a very good site --
http://www.gaelchultur.com/ -- presented by Gaelchultúr which gives a free "assess your level of Irish test" and also some free lesson material with Irish sentences,discrete translations if required, sound files to give pronunciation, notes to remind you of the points of grammar at issue, and more extensive descriptions of the important points. To my unsophisticated eye it looks very appealing and I suspect cost a fortune. It is presented in both Irish and English.

I hope it is a portent of things to come. From the above discussion and especially the contributions by Lughaidh and Seánw we should all have Skype and have a ciorcal comhrá ar líne where we could speak a bit of Irish together. Ideally we could publish a little series of questions on some topic beforehand so that one person would not have to carry the conversation but could act as Cathaoirleach inviting each of the others to contribute.

The promoter of Gaelchultúr is Éamonn Ó Dónaill who is also a director of Oideas Gael. For myself I congratulate him and wish him continued success.

quote:

I also chuckle every time Máirtín Tom Sheánín says 'meat factory' on Comhrá. Which seems to be quite a lot.

To me, criticizing the Irish of Máirtín Tom Sheáinín is quite a lot...

We stuck stickers all over the house of the names of things in Irish, after a week we took them off as we didnt need to look at them anymore.

It silves alot of these problems.

Taking efforts to take efforts to far to elinimate English can be counter productive but I fail to see the point in using a vocubalary based on English.

In my experience some native speakers just gave up speaking Irish when they were using 50 % of the words of a sentence in Irish.

We stuck stickers all over the house of the names of things in Irish...

That's a simple but a very good idea and one that I can't remember hearing of before.

And as regards language learning aids have you seen this: http://www.transparent.com/irish/ ? This kind of embedding of more advanced Irish words & phrases in English texts with explanations might be one way to help people make it across that No Man's Land from school leavers' Irish to the territory of functional Irish.

And a monthly magazine in the mould of the following for Irish would be very beneficial:
http://www.ecoute.de/
http://www.spotlight-online.de/


Trying to teach native speakers not to use non-Irish words is probably a case of barking up le falschen crann.

Imagine having a native German who is enthusiastic about the purity of the English language trying to have you say: I will pick up something at the deliciouseat when I collect the kids from the children's garden and then we can drink a glass of storeroom?

(Message edited by ormondo on December 06, 2009)

quote:

To me, criticizing the Irish of Máirtín Tom Sheáinín is quite a lot...

I think you misunderstand. I chuckle because of the way he says it, not *because* he uses it, or the frequency with which he uses it. I like his accent.

ormondo,

Every Irish speaking family I personally know uses the stkicker technigue, especially if only one person speaks Irish. It is very effective.

If I can find a list I will post it.

"Trying to teach native speakers not to use non-Irish words is probably a case of barking up le falschen crann."

Quite.

But I also feel that trying to insist that everyone uses English words to satifisy people who prefer to use English words is equaly absurb.