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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (November-December) » Archive through December 05, 2009 » The ninety commonest nouns « Previous Next »

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 76
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I stumbled across a book once which ,among other things,listed the ninety commonest nouns.Why ninety,I have no idea - as opposed to ,say,85 or 100.Needless to say I can remember nothing else about it!


Mairéad ní Ghráda - in progress in Irish - says the best way to learn nouns is with the definite article.This seems sensible,you would become accustomed to which nouns took úrú,séimhú etc.

There are good books of verb conjugations;is their one for nouns and their declensions?

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 293
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Irish Nouns: A Reference Guide by Andrew Carnie

It costs an arm and a leg, but you can also read for free this synopsis:

http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~carnie/publications/PDF/QuickRefSheet.pdf

and this website:

http://www.potafocal.com/infhill/
(which may be out of order right now).

(Message edited by seánw on December 01, 2009)

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 505
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 02:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you go with Carnie's book be warned you might swim in information you might not want.

The beauty of this book is that at the back of his book he had a list of 10,000 Irish nouns and 2,700 adjectives listen in reference format.

For example:

spionáiste, mA, (gs. ~), spinach

The tragedy of this book is that he created a new, and in my personal opinion, more logical system of classifying nouns and adjectives. The problem is that his system most likely will never catch on, and if you adopt it...you will be fighting with every dictionary ever made, or going to be made because the traditional 5 noun class system is too ingrained with the language.

So while you can use this book to help you decline all the nouns and adjectives he gives you...you are ultimately going to have to learn the noun with its traditional classification because that's what you are going to find in the dictionaries.

Do not let this stop anyone from buying this book. I highly recommend it to all. It is a wonderful resource for seeing 12,700 Irish words with one to one Irish to English translations. Which is good for learners who might get caught in the "Which word in the dictionary to use game."

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 77
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 03:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA a chairde.Yes,it sounds good.But it's more than 50 euros! I suppose we could compile a list of commmonly used nouns with an talt.I'll ask a few heads amárach.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 506
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 03:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well,

If you would like a taste of the book, I believe Mr. Carnie put a rough draft online for people to take a look at.

It's not 12,700 nouns and adjectives, it is only 1,200 nouns. I believe it can be viewed if you can find it on the net. I haven't seen it in the usual Google hits since he published the book. So it is possible that he took the draft off the net. But who knows.

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 296
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 04:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I know Mr. Carnie remarked about the price here before, and how academic books generally are high priced with low sales. I don't know why it isn't just published on-demand. I personally think academic publication is a racket (not Mr. Carnie personally). The book can be sold for much less in my opinion, but then again, I haven't written a book and published it. Oh well.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 507
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 11:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I wrote him an e-mail when I first saw that he had pushed back the publication date.

The publishers were a little worried with the risk this book presented them.

Irish language books don't have the following that are going to gurantee profit, and to be frank, due to the nature of the work...it can either be a hit, or a dud.

Remember, he is attempting to promote a new way of doing something that really hasn't been challenged before.

They going to play it safe for them and produce small numbers at a higher price until they feel it is safe to produce large numbers at a lower price.

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 78
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 09:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It may be wasted on someone with my limited competence,anyway.To be honest I was thinknig more along the lines of an ainmfhocail version of Deaglán O Murchú's Briathra Gaeilge.

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 508
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Macdara, that type of thinking will get you nothing when it comes to the Irish language. Confidence breeds speakers ;-)

Irish is one of those languages that seems difficult, but in reality it is just different. Like any other language you will pick up on the rules with time.

I struggled with his book at first when I bought it because his system was similar to my way of thinking. In fact, in a matter of days I had completely adjusted to his system. The problem I ran into, is that after I had accepted and wanted to use this system, and to re-accept that no other source works with this and it caused me some problems.

But then I created a cheat sheet, that he actually gives you in the back of the book, and no I can easily switch from his system which I use for my person reasons, and the traditional system used by everyone else.

The traditional system goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

For example:

duais, f2 (feminine noun, 2nd declension)

But this doesn't really tell you how to decline the noun because you have know have to find out which type of 2nd noun it is, and how those types of 2nd nouns decline.

His system is a very logical attempt at fixing this problem for learners and speakers...

His system uses the letters, A B C D E F G H I J. And then there are subclasses for some of the letters. D has the most subclasses. But his book goes into wonderful detail how they are put into these classes, and how to decline them. Since only words that follow this pattern will be found in them it is easier to say of it is an A noun, so I do this and only this to it.

Now this seems like a lot, but all he really did was took every possible pattern and created a separate group for each instead of saying within one group you will see a number of different patterns.

A-----4th

B1----1st

B2----1st

C-----5th

D1----2nd

D2----2nd

D3----2nd

D4----2nd

D5----2nd

D6----3rd

D7----3rd

D8----3rd

D9----3rd

D10---3rd

D11---3rd

D12---3rd

E-----5th

F-----5th

G-----5th

H1----1st

H2----2nd

I-----4th

J-----Varies (these are special cases and very few)

Now at first this might seem like an overload. But it really isn't once you start working with it. If fact, a person might be surprised how quickly they pick this system up and how faster it is to use.

For example:

duais, fD1... (feminine noun, D1 declension pattern)

Since there is only one way that D1 nouns can be declined, it is a little more learner friendly to use. At least in my opinion.

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 298
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 04:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is there an H1N1 pattern? Just kidding.

This is also done with the verbs, as I believe you pointed out previously, in Wong's book. I find these patterns much more helpful than the classical method of declining, which is almost a remnant of Latin/Indo-European catagorization. The old Christian Brothers has to list numerous exceptions. You have a choice, go with 5 and learn numerous exceptions, or go with more and learn very few exceptions. I think my brain works the latter way.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 80
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 06:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What about gender? This is Ní Ghráda's point re the definite article,I think.I am often surprised when a noun is used in a sentence for which a pronoun is used later - and that pronoun turns out to be 'í'.

Are masculine nouns really commoner,or is the rule itself wobbling? I read somewhere that,within the Gaeltacht,the rules on gender are 'more often observed in the breach'.

I might annoy my library to try and get Carnie's book.It wont happen soon though,they have problems of their own!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 509
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

LOL

A Seánw...I think he is counting his blessings his book came before H1N1 ;)

Macdara,

That's the beauty of his system, the gender of nouns are not as important in terms of declension group.

I remember he mentioned gender being one of the problems of the traditional 5 declension system.

For example, in the traditional system we are told the 2nd declension nouns are all feminine with the exception of three masculine nouns.

Then you look at the 3rd declension, it is made up of both masculine and feminine nouns. The problem is that many 3rd declension nouns are declined the same way as the 2nd declension.

So why are they not in the same group? Well, there could be many reasons, however he and I sort of agree, and feel it has to do with gender. They said the 2nd declension was feminine nouns with these endings. So one couldn't possibly put a masculine noun in the group, or feminine noun with different spellings.

His system only concerns itself with how the word is declined and the spelling.

Once you go beyond the "linguistic sexism" ;-) words start fitting into more groups together.

His only flaw, is that he is promoting such a radical system that it will take time for people to even be willing to look at seriously.

After taking a look at his work I sent him a letter telling him that I thought there was really something to this, however, I proposed a revision to his system that might make his system more digestable to the hard critics.

Looking at the relationship between his new system above and the traditional system in use, if he had reversed his labeling ideology he might have had a more acceptable system for example.

For example:

In a regular dictionary we see:

poblacht, nf3, republic

In his work we see:

poblacht, fD6, republic

Now the average person is going to easily identify with the first example. The second might seem alien, and they might not want to try. But I believe there is a way around this.

The first would be to combine the systems.

poblacht, f3d6, republic

This would tell you that this is a feminine noun, 3rd, declension, and d6 is the pattern needed.

Fairly straight foward and allows for both systems to co-exist. (Also the system I use when creating new vocab cards)

The second idea is along the same lines, only it is writen a little differently.

poblacht, f3a, republic

Now remember there are many D's in his system. (D1,D2,D3...D12). I say keeping the 5 class system, but use Carnie's subclass system, you can actually create:

Second Declension- (2a, 2b, 2c, 2d, 2e, 2f) 2f = H2

Third Declension- (3a, 3b, 3c, 3d, 3e, 3f, 3g)

All I have done here is instead of writing D1,D2....I wrote the traditional system with Carnies new subclass system. And I have given all the Ds a single letter label.

You are seeing the same information, it is only with a different label.

poblacht, f3a, replublic

we see that it is a feminine noun, third declension, and it is declined with 3a's pattern.

I think this might not be too radical for more traditional mindsets.

What do you think?

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure



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