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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (November-December) » Archive through December 16, 2009 » Help again! « Previous Next »

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 159
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 03:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

First of all I want to ask about the book's name: An Braon Broghach - it says in the dictionary that it's the first drippings of distillation or impure spirits.
What does the phrase "impure spirits" mean: is it only from the alcohol world or can it be a metaphore?


I also need help in translating this passage from page 41 in the book (An Taoille Tuile):

Ach ní raibh sé ina náire cheart uirthi go raibh uirthi a dhul 'ag slupáil'.

thanks in advance!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9238
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 04:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It can be a metaphor. And probaly is in this case.

I'll come back to you on the other when I've read the passage.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 160
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

so metaphorically it would be spirits (not the alcohol ones) that are? what would you suggest?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9240
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was thinking more that it referred to the mixed nature of humans - about which the stories seem to be.

I don't remember any supernatural aspect to them. Is there a story called "An Braon Broghach" in the collection? I can't remember.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 533
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I imagine "an braon broghach" is simply "the bad drop" a familiar phrase in Ireland as in "That family have the bad drop in them". A bad trait? A bad streak of character?

It is a very cruel menacing title for a story and reminds us of the harsh judgemental taunts of rural Ireland long ago. No wonder America beckoned to so many.

"Broghach" pronounced "bróch" in north Mayo is something like "filthy" or "awful" as in "an seancheo broghach sin" (that awful fog)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9245
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 03:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl scéal leis an teideal sin sa leabhar.

Tá dealramh le tuairim Thaidhgín.

Maidir le

quote:

Ach ní raibh sé ina náire cheart uirthi go raibh uirthi a dhul 'ag slupáil'.



Níl mé cinnte díreach cad atá i gceist le slupáil. Deir Ó Dónaill gurbh ionann é agus slapaireacht slovenliness

San alt sin, tá cás Mhairéad bhocht ag éirí níos truamhéalaí, agus goimh ag teacht ar a fear chuici - tá triúr ón gclann eile ann, agus iad cleachtaithe - agus eisean taobh le bean nach bhfuil taithí cladaigh aici.

Is dócha go bhfuil sí chomh tuirseach sin agus cráite nach bhfuil sí ag obair go paiteanta níos mó.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 161
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 04:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

thanks, the braon broghach information is helpful.

Thanks Aaonghus, yet again!

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 285
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is é is brí leis an teilgean cainte an braon broghach ná an chéad bhraon poitín a thagann as an stil, is é sin, as an ngléas driogtha, nuair a bhítear ag déanamh poitín.



http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Braon_Broghach

(Message edited by seánw on November 25, 2009)

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9250
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 05:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sea, agus tá an braon céanna nimhneach de ghnáth. As sin an chiall mheafarach.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 04:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

another question: what do you understand from the next passage?

Ba é uain na máthar é ar deireadh thiar. Níor phóg sí a hiníon ó bhí sí ina páiste cheana.

1. what do you understand from the sentences starting in "Níor"?

2. What do you think ceana means?

thanks!

(Message edited by seabhac on November 28, 2009)

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 333
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 05:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níor phóg sí a hiníon ó bhí sí ina páiste cheana.

"She had not kissed her daughter since she (i.e., her daughter) was a child."

1. Níor = did not, had not

2. cheana is the dictionary form and doesn't mutate. In this case I think it links to ó to give the sense of "ever since".

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 289
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Níor phóg sí a hiníon ó bhí sí ina páiste cheana.



She did not kiss her daughter since she was her favorite child.

ceana > gen sg of cion

Addition:
I see someone else contribution. Please correct me if I am wrong! I want to learn to!

(Message edited by seánw on November 28, 2009)

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 290
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 05:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seabhac,
Ignore my previous contribution. I am wrong. I see now what Breandán is saying. ó ... cheana = since ... before, or as he puts it "ever since". Sorry to be hasty there!

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 575
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 07:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seabhac, if you are looking for a glossary of the more difficult terms in An Taoille Tuile have a look here:
http://ormondo-fon.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.html

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 163
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 11:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually I'm trying to see what the common reading of this passage is, and how you understand it.

Well, I got an answer, thanks for all.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I found in An Braon Braoghach on page 15 this:

Ba Cholm sportha é arís tar éis an liostachais.

Before Colm there's no é. Is it a kind of Colm - not the specific referred to by the name?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9274
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No, I think it is the specific person - Colm - that is meant. Whatever has just happened has restored his energy to him.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 165
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 11:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In that case, why is there no é before Colm, like one would have expected here?

It's the same case with the definite noun after "Is": Is é an fear é...

Or is it not?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9275
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 12:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You need the grammar gurus for that one.

I read it as

Ba (Cholm sportha) é arís

I don't think another é is required.

Ba mac léinn é
Ba fear mór é

I think this is the same.

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Hugo
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Username: Hugo

Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 01:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Ba Cholm sportha é arís" - He/it was a "stimulated/inflamed/enthusiastic?" Colm again (classification, not identification). At least, that's my reading of it, the same as "Colm sportha a bhí ann arís"
'An Foclóir Beag' gives 'sportha' as the vb. adj. of 'sporadh' (related to 'spur'?)= 'gríosú'. The verb 'sporadh' isn't in my 'Foclóir Beag', but the adjective 'sportha' is, = 'exhausted', 'broke'. ???

(Message edited by Hugo on November 29, 2009)

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 166
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 02:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So you read Colm as one embodiment of Colm, one side of Colm not the whole entity?!

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 167
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 02:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

maybe "it was A stimulated Colm"?

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Hugo
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Username: Hugo

Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 02:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Isn't that what I said? LOL. But look in your FGB for a more apt translation of 'sportha'.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9276
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 03:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually, after reading the passage again, I think the meaning is "broken"

Ba Cholm sportha é arís tar éis an liostachais.


He was a broken Colm again after the long illness.

(Before this sentence it talks about the doctors taking money off him and his siblings, but doing him no good. The next passage says he is fit again, but not up to working as hard as he did before. This is the second catastrophe to hit him - after he lost all his savings when the bank where he had it collapsed)

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 168
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA

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Hugo
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Username: Hugo

Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Banks collapse.? Nah, not possible...

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 169
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 04:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What is scail gartha?

The whole passage is (from Idir shúgradh agus dáiríre, page 117):

Tháinig a sháith iontais ar gach uile dhuine gur fhág an scail ghártha a bhuail an caisleán an oiread is cloch ar a fhud...

Thanks.

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 05:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

and another word I can't find in the dictionary:

(droichead) spioróide

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9307
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 06:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

scal can mean blast

Does "Scal gártha" a blast of shouts make sense? (I don't have the book). Something like the trumpet knocking Jericho.

I'd say the second is " a spirit bridge"

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 543
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't know the answer ... but the word "gártha" occurs in one of the poems we learnt by heart long ago at school "Bhí gríosghrua gártha aici agus loinnir ina ciabh mar ór / is gurb (gurbh?) é aoibhneas an domhain bheith ag amharc ar an ríoghain óg."

I think that is from Úrchill an Chreagáin. It is in praise of the beauty of a "spéirbhean" -- her blushing cheeks and the golden lustre of her hair.

As for your sentence, while I still haven't a notion what it means apart from the obvious words: Everyone was amazed that the "scáil ghártha" [warm glow / shadow??] that "hit" [enveloped? covered? suffused?] the castle left [not????] as much as a stone ar a fhud???

If I knew the rest of the paragraph context I could probably venture a translation.

For example if the castle is actually being attacked the meaning of scail ghártha could be equivalent to a "hot / vivid blast" and "ar a fhud" anywhere but without the rest of the context I have to admit defeat. Did the castle vanish? Was the scail ghártha some supernatural beam or flash of light that caused it to disintegrate "ar a fhud" all over?

Níl a fhios agam.

Please note that I don't mention the perennial old chestnuts "dialect" or "typo".

Ó Cadhain was a rare genius, a passionate revolutionary, who pilloried the high and mighty with relentless ferocity in letters to the newspapers and in numerous pamphlets, a serious scholar and an almost monoglot Irish speaker - at least in his youth - who had a voracious appetite for all possible dialects including those of Scottish Gaelic and never hesitated to tease his readers (however few, myself included - 40 years ago and more ) with a play on words from them all. In later life he aquired some knowledge of numerous other languages including Gaidhlig, French, and Russian. His English was distinctive and similar in pitch to the voice of W.B.Yeats.

"Scail" is so close to "scáil" that I'd be tempted but I'm sure those who consult the dictionaries will come up with some surprises.

I look forward to a definitive answer to this.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 653
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tháinig a sháith iontais ar gach uile dhuine gur fhág an scail ghártha a bhuail an caisleán an oiread is cloch ar a fhud...



Everyone was really surprised that the loud blast that blew up the castle left nothing but stones scattered all over the place (i.e. where the castle stood).

Is é an chiall atá le "gártha" i gConamara, "loud, intense". Níl an scéal leite agam ach sin é an chiall a bhainim as an abairt seo gan mórán comhthéacs.

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Seabhac
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Username: Seabhac

Post Number: 171
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 02:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, it does mention a thunder, so I guess the meaning of loud blast fits well.

And thanks for the interpretations.

GRMA.



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