Bhí Donncha Ó hÉallaithe gníomhaí teangan ó Indreabhán ag labhairt amach inné faoi Eamo agus gur theip sé mar Aire Gaeltachta go hairid faoi aththeorannú na Gaeltachta. Lúigh sé comhlacht i mBaile Chláir na Gaillimhe ag fáil deontais €650,000 agus gur mór an scannal é sin agus freisin bhí sé ag labhairt faoi thoghchán Údarás na Gaeltachta agus gur chaill Ceantar na n-Óiléan ionadaí toisc go raibh Cathair na Gaillimhe fós sa Ghaeltacht cé go raibh a fhios ag gach mac madra nach raibh mórán Gaeilge á labhairt san áit. Ach bhí pointe maith ag an Aire ná go bhfuil fiú amhain na ceantracha is laige sa Ghaeltacht i bhfad níos láidre ó thaobh labhairt na Gaeilge de ná aon ceantar Galltachta agus is fíor é sin.

I agree with the Minister that a redrawing of the Gaeltacht boundaries won't suddenly solve creimeadh teangan in the Gaeltacht and that throwing out Baille Ghib or Tuar Mhic éadaigh or the like might not be for the good of the language as basically show me where in the Galltacht is stronger than weak Galetacht areas. The Minister also as good as said that very weak areas- think of Beál A Mhuirthid 14% An Chlochán Liath 14% would be thrown out. If Category C Gaetacht status-30 per cent daily speakers and at least 10 per cent of households in an area getting scéim labhair na Gaeilge were implemented than a lot of the Gaeltacht would be thrown out. As far as I can rememer some town in Kildare was 21 per cent daily Irish speakers at last census the highest in Galltacht.

Fear aon phoirt é Donncha groí.

quote:

As far as I can rememer some town in Kildare was 21 per cent daily Irish speakers at last census the highest in Galltacht.

Where in Kildare is that? I'm from Kildare originally and I find that very interesting.

Guevara,

Was this an exchange that took place on RnaG?

If the Gaeltacht is to retain any meaning at all, certain districts must be 'thrown out'. So many areas in the official Gaeltacht are overwhelmingly English speaking. It's a joke. I think it's scandalous that it's been over fifty years since the Gaeltacht borders were changed on a large scale. In fact, the last three changes to the boundaries resulted in MORE townlands being granted Gaeltacht status. Not less. The last alteration was in 1982 or so.

The question is, will this Gov. have the guts to make the cuts? All those grants can be addictive, you know.

Danny2007,

Donncha O hEallaithe was on Athmhaidin on Wednesday morning and Eamo responded on Wednesday afternoon on RnaG. Eamo also made the point that if the Gaeltacht is reduced that the amount of money will be reduced and so there will in effect be no extra money available.

Pádraig O hÁoláin of Údarás na Gaeltachta was on RnaG this morning re the 30th anniversary of the founding of the Údarás. He made a very good point that in spite of numerous 3rd Level courses now available in the Gaeltacht, naonraí, TG4 and its related offshoot industries and increases in jobs available that the language is instead of increasing in daily speakers it is in fact decreasing. So its not all black and white while government is oft criticised it is ultimately down to Gaeltacht people We must remember that The Mayo Gaeltacht which was the second biggest Gaeltacht after Galway in the 60's virtually in one generation abandoned the langauge

The concept of a geographical Gaeltacht needs to be re-thought, and possibly abandoned.

A Gaeltacht is a community, not an area.

Simply lopping bits off an area where failed methods are being applied won't make any difference.

The town in North Kildare was Léim an Bhradáin. There has been an all-Irish primary school there for the last 25 years and there are two secondary schools teaching through Irish: Coláiste Chilliain in Cluain Dolcáin and Coláiste Cois Life in Leamhcán. There are two university colleges nearby in Maigh Nuad: the Pontifical and the National University of Ireland. Not a typical rural area.

Regarding Baile Cláir na Gaillimhe and such places which have been over-run by urban sprawl the fact that they are still designated "Gaeltacht" allows the State to try and revive the language in those areas.

The original native-Irish speaking families are still to be found in those areas but the urban housing estates have so changed the culture of the area that they are all but swamped by the new-comers.

It is not that the Irish-speakers abandoned Irish but that builders and speculators were allowed to bring in those who had more money than Irish to buy the new houses and settle there. No regard was paid to the language during the Tiger years. Shade's of Mí-shásta's Chetwynde Downs etc.

Hopefully with all these empty hotels and unsold housing estates imaginative efforts will be made to establish Irish-language residential courses for adults and small urban Irish-speaking neighbourhoods: in the Gaeltacht!

quote:

The concept of a geographical Gaeltacht needs to be re-thought, and possibly abandoned.

I would say abandoned, but not without a replacement program in place that is attuned to the current situation. The fact is that population shift and economy shift has completely change the face of Ireland, and the Gaeltacht, as currently defined, is out of date. Because of this, I think it is not well-placed to serve the Gaeltachtaí that do exist and have ignored the geographical bounderies. A Gaeltacht should be widely defined along the lines of any place/situation where two people meet and discourse in Irish.

But is it a geographical area? At least originally, it was about giving status and recognition to communities which had remained either mostly Irish speaking (80%+) or where anywhere from a substantial minority to an outright majority of locals (25%-79%) spoke Irish.

Why should Claregalway or Achill retain Gaeltacht status? Are we going to blame the massive decline of Irish on Achill to 'newcomers', too? Is Irish all but dead in Baile na Sceilge because of 'urban sprawl'? I'd say the decline in places like Claregalway was already well underway before the 'Tiger years'. It all seems like a red herring.

Why should communities which have retained Irish be treated the same as those where most locals don't give a damn about Irish? Something has to change. The whole thing is turning into a farce and it's doing more harm than good to the language IMO.

Guevara,

Cheers for the information.

quote:

Eamo also made the point that if the Gaeltacht is reduced that the amount of money will be reduced and so there will in effect be no extra money available.

Did he explain why?

Gaeltacht=a whole community that naturally uses Irish in its every day life.

A "network" of Irish speakers is not the same thing at all. The reason why a network of Irish speakers in Dublin are not a Gaeltacht and why a café in Limerick could not be a Gaeltacht, is that participants in those networks are not brought up immersed in the language in the same way as if it were a community language. Their Irish is likely to be of an English-influenced type

One day, when there is no particular area you can point to to say "labhraítear Gaeilge anseo", the language will be immeasurably weakened. It will be increasingly difficult to find teachers fluent enough for the gaelscoileanna. You will be left with networks of hobbyists - no different to me setting up a café where we all agree to talk in New Testament Greek.

Is fíor dhuit. faraor.

Caithfear na Pobail fíor Ghaeltachta a chosaint. Ach níl an modh reatha ag obair, agus ní feabhas a bheidh ar an scéal má ghearrtar siar na teorainneacha, gan an modh tacaíochta a athrú.

Táimse i bhfabhar tacaíocht áirithe, céimithe a thabhairt don bpobal i ngach ceantar atá san Gaeltacht Oifigiúil mar atá anois, chun stádas na teangain sa phobal a neartú agus a bhuanú.

Creidim go bhfuil gá leis na ceantair laga ar imill na Gaeltachtaí mar maoláin do na ceantair láidre.

quote:

One day, when there is no particular area you can point to to say "labhraítear Gaeilge anseo", the language will be immeasurably weakened.

Absolutely.

Have the Gaeltachtaí turned into ghettos?

Is that a suggestion or a question, Seán W?

quote:

Is that a suggestion or a question, Seán W?

Question. Any time you give "special" status, it could also have an opposite effect. We have Indian Reservations in the USA. These are "sovereign nations" in the midst of the USA. Unfortunately, the whole thing is a shame, and ultimately I think bad for the Native Americans here. The Gaeltacht idea, as a geographical portion of land with different laws and policies, is, I think, flawed and outdated. The living language I think has ignored these bounderies and fosters division in Irish society. The ghetto part I mean more of the sense of American ghetto instead of Jewish ghetto. A place where people may receive special government aid, but where there is a resulting high dependence on the government aid. It does not foster self-sufficiency. The Gaeltacht legalities should be removed from geographical restriction, applied to every Irish citizen on the Island, and tied to the language. For example, as brought up here before, the Gaeltacht could spring up in the form of an all-Irish web-forum, or on the radio waves of RnaG, etc. even if they're broadcast from the most English parts of Ireland. The present geographical Gaeltacht would not lose any status, those people would not lose, I think, because the bar would be set at their level, and the rest of the Island would be raised to it, not the Gaeltacht brought down.

I think in most (all?) cases, special status tied with government aid, fosters dependence and division.

It's not quite that extreme here, but there is certainly an element of that. In particular, there is a problem that the various schemes administered in the Gaeltacht do not have clear, measurable, socio linguistic goals.

In part this is because some of the schemes are effectively hangovers from when the areas were administered by the Congested Districts Board.

Some level of state support for culture is needed, because we do not have the practice of, or structures for, US Type philanthropic engagement.

quote:

Some level of state support for culture is needed, because we do not have the practice of, or structures for, US Type philanthropic engagement.

I agree with some state support, but I believe the support should be mostly in the creation of a positive environment in which the language naturally thrives, and that support should be well placed and accountable. For instance, it seems the debate is more about government document translation and less about the bureaucracy that produces so much verbiage to be translated. Ultimately there has to be a reemphasis that government is for the common good, and the principle of subsidiarity means that the implementation of Irish programs should be local, and formed by the local bodies -- they are the directors of their destiny, not some distant group in Dublin or London or Brussels. Irish speakers shouldn't be locked into a position of dependence. Irish speaking families shouldn't sign over their passing-on of the language to the state departments.

I agree with Seán W and with Aonghus to some extent. Unfortunately The Geographical Gaeltacht is economically hopeless. Agriculture? Fishing? Manufacturing? Services? Zilch were it not for the special assistance afforded by the Government.

If these areas had had any little economic advantage the Irish-speaking people would have been dispossessed long ago and pushed aside by English-speaking gold-diggers. The harsh terrain and poverty protected the language; as it did in Scotland and Wales.

As for applying Gaeltacht "legalities" to the whole of Ireland the potential for fraud would be astonishing. Imagine how easy it would be! It is bad enough in the bilingual Gaeltacht at the moment where one family may seem to receive State largesse and their next-door neighbours suffer squalor because of their spoken language.

Such a scheme would exacerbate the rich/poor divide and give preference to the bright students who do well at Irish in school as they do in all other subjects and further disadvantage the slow learners and socially deprived students.

In any case name any Gaelscoil and you will find three and four times the number of Irish speakers to be found in half a dozen small Gaeltacht schools taken together. It is a tragedy that all the problems associated with rural deprivation, depopulation, unemployment and poverty are to be found in the Gaeltacht in spades.

Nevertheless the existing Gaeltacht must be fostered and encouraged, strengthened and preserved. They are the only communities where public meetings can be held through Irish without objection. where religious services can be celebrated through Irish, and where there is an obvious onus on young parents to rear their children through Irish.

If I had my way I'd establish a satelite Gaeltacht in a prosperous part of the country with lots of natural advantages for each of the existing Irish-speaking communities. Like Ros an Mhíl and Rath Cairn. Give youngsters something to look forward to.

We all see now the mad so-called "developments" perpetrated by crazed with greed individuals seeking to build housing estates in places where none were needed, or blocks of flats too small to rear children in, and now that the recession has left these lunatics stranded like beached whales on a dry shore we can realise that there is nothing wrong in insisting that if you want to build or come and live in an Irish-speaking community you must show affinity with the language and the community.

Planning laws should take the Irish language into account and should be used to prevent the obliteration of so many beautiful Irish placenames by imported nonsense like: Cedar Park, River Forest (no river, no forest) and Glendale (on top of a hill)! Grrr. They should be used fearlessly to preserve the Gaeltacht.

It is high time that the rules which supposedly exist to protect the Gaeltacht were actually applied instead of the mugadh magadh that is the reality on the ground: teachers receiving a special Gaeltacht allowance teaching through English and gardaí receiving a similar allowance bringing cases to court through English before a judge who could not understand Irish anyway if he heard it.

That did not apply to the recent High Court case taken by English-only parents against Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne where everyone spoke Irish. I was there and it was a joy to hear as much Irish spoken during the intervals as was spoken during the case. I imagine the plaintiffs suffered a culture shock having thought that "no one speaks Irish". The judge did. And all the barristers. Although the plaintiffs presented their case in English the atmosphere in the room was as Gaelach as Gaelach can be.

Now where was I? I have lost the thread but having written so much I'll press ... post

It is important as well to distinguish in the debate between Gaeltacht as government created/defined regions and Gaeltacht as areas where Irish predominates.

quote:

The Minister also as good as said that very weak areas- think of Beál A Mhuirthid 14% An Chlochán Liath 14% would be thrown out.

I'll believe it if and when that day comes.

I'm not opposed to mostly English speaking towns like Dingle-Dangle or Bearna being given a special 'Gaeltacht gateway' status or something similar, but for the sake of the language's very reputation, the boundaries must be updated.

quote:

Gaeltacht as areas where Irish predominates.

Too strict, in my view. If the Gaeltacht was reduced only to those districts where Irish remains more commonly spoken than English, a good 75% or more of the current territory would lose its status. The proposed 'Category-C' figures should be the bare minimum. I think it was 30%+ daily speakers of Irish (outside the education system, ideally) and 10%+ of eligible households receiving the SLG (Irish speaking scheme grant).

Chuala mé roinnt maith Ghaeilge sa Daingean an samhradh seo caite. Bhí íonadh orm i ndiadh an méid a bhí cloiste agus léite agam maidir leis an nGaeilge sa bhaile - ceapfá go rachadh an Ghaeilge go tóin poill roimh Fungi. Bhí daoine aitúla á úsáid sa ollmhargadh, lasmuigh den tséipeal, sa siopa leabhair agus i go leor aiteanna eile. Bhí mé ag comhra leis an poiticéir faoi uachtar gréine (creid nó ná creid i mblíana!) agus an cluiche cáide (tá na Dubs an laidir i mblíana - an gnáthseafóid as an lucht Chiarraí!). Thug m'iníon a hordú don fhreastalaí as Gaeilge agus bhí ríméad uirthí nuair a thosaigh sé ag caint agus ag moladh a cuid Gaeilge. Fiú sa Samhradh, agus an ait plodaithe le túrasoirí, bhí an theangan an laidir. Níl an cath caillte sa Daingean fós.

Tá's acu taobh an aráin ar a bhfuil an t-im. Seans gur dúisíodh as a suan iad agus go dtuigeann siad luach na Gaeilge ar deireadh.

Déarfainn gur baineadh geit astu nuair ba léir dóibh dearcadh frith-Ghaelach na nGall ina measc. Cá bhfios nach leathfadh an teanga amach ón mbaile sin ar fud na tíre go fóill.

Má tá dul chun cinn déanta le céad bliain anuas tá céad bliain eile amach roimh an nGaeilge agus céad bliain ina dhiaidh sin arís.

Smaoinigh ar an bPléimeannach a mheas go raibh deireadh leis an teanga. Trí bliana i ndéidh a bháis in 1890 (??) a bunaíodh Conradh na Gaeilge. (1893) Tá an chuid is fearr fós le teacht, a chairde. Creidim sin go daingean diongbhálta. Corraigí oraibh. Bígí ag caint is ag foghlaim.

Tá's acu taobh an aráin ar a bhfuil an t-im. Seans gur dúisíodh as a suan iad agus go dtuigeann siad luach na Gaeilge ar deireadh.

Déarfainn gur baineadh geit astu nuair ba léir dóibh dearcadh frith-Ghaelach na nGall ina measc. Cá bhfios nach leathfadh an teanga amach ón mbaile sin ar fud na tíre go fóill.

Má tá dul chun cinn déanta le céad bliain anuas tá céad bliain eile amach roimh an nGaeilge agus céad bliain ina dhiaidh sin arís.

Smaoinigh ar an bPléimeannach a mheas go raibh deireadh leis an teanga lena linn féin. Trí bliana i ndéidh a bháis in 1890 (?) a bunaíodh Conradh na Gaeilge. (1893) Cén tsúil a bheadh aige siúd le hAcht Teanga ná le Stádas san Eoraip?

Tá an chuid is fearr fós le teacht, a chairde. Creidim sin go daingean diongbhálta. Corraigí oraibh. Bígí ag caint is ag foghlaim.

quote:

Too strict, in my view. If the Gaeltacht was reduced ...

But that's what I mean, Danny. You took one concept and mistook it for another, namely, the government Gaeltacht for the social Gaeltacht based on speakers. You often point out the differences between the two. There are many "Gaeltacht"s. One is the government created regions. Another is where Irish is predominant or at least very commonly used. For instance, when Muiris Ó Laoire says that the Gaeltachtaí need to be preserved for the Irish language, because the learners in other areas are drawing from them, I think he means the actual places where people speak Irish predominantly as a community language, not the government "Gaeltacht". This is what I mean by making these distinctions. Otherwise, you go into things like "Catagory C" Gaeltacht etc. To me, that is a damning way for any community to be defined. One concept is mostly concerned with statutues and public moneys, the other is, I think, more concerned with socio-linguistic realities and the needs of Irish speakers. I am sorry, but when a community is scrutinized into percentage speakers/non-speakers, I then the whole process becomes wooden and soulless, and I think that is where soulless bureaucracy comes in as savior and everyone is made to believe that because a lot of euros are changing hands that everything is fine. The Gaeltacht should be widely defined so as to include speaking communities in predominantly English areas. A wide definition will give the impression to Irish citizens that every Irish citizen on the Island is potentially in a Gaeltacht, that it isn't some location with "those" people of "that" class, with a language being "artificially" kept alive, and there wouldn't be two practices applied in neighboring towns.

The bureaucracy is coming under scrutiny now, but it could be a great opportunity for the Irish programs to strip off some weight, and become a lean and mean way of supporting Irish. But the finger doesn't have to be pointed at Irish programs, it can be pointed at the huge derivative-gambling beast that got everyone into the mess! But it presents a constructive opportunity for self-criticism.

quote:

it presents a constructive opportunity for self-criticism.

Absolutely. But difficult, since there are those in the centres of power who would love to consign the language to the dustbin of history.

The trouble is, it is deflating for a learner of Irish to visit the Gaeltacht and fail to find Irish. The Gaeltacht concept then provokes cynicism. At the other end of the spectrum, people in the Galltacht are not supported. I would like to see the deontas and other forms of support given to all families in Ireland raising their children with Gaeltacht Irish, whether in the Gaeltacht or not. For example, if 2 people from Conamara move to Dublin and raise their children through Galway Irish, then they should be given support. (I am excluding the possibility to extended that support to speaker of "constructed" forms of the language.)

There is exhaustive and never-ending discussion on this site of Gaeltacht boundaries, schemes for reviving Irish, how Ireland's policy is right/wrong, how it could have all been different if X,Y,and Z had been done in 1926.

Are you daltaí - students of Irish? Or are you students of the attempt to revive Irish? It all seems so abstract.

The state of the Irish language is what it is. You can still use the resources available to learn it. That's it.

Not sure what you're getting at, Seánw. Mistook what?

You seem to acknowledge that the official Gaeltacht is much larger than the real Gaeltacht. Yet you are proposing that it should be defined even more loosely?

quote:

It is important as well to distinguish in the debate between Gaeltacht as government created/defined regions and Gaeltacht as areas where Irish predominates.

Yes, I always do. What am I missing here? I don't know what point you're trying to make. I've never said it should be limited strictly to districts where Irish predominates. But there should be a bare minimum.

quote:

I am sorry, but when a community is scrutinized into percentage speakers/non-speakers, I then the whole process becomes wooden and soulless

Define speaking community then. You want 'speaking communities' in mostly English speaking areas to be defined as Gaeltachtaí. Well, the majority of the official Gaeltacht already meets that definition. English is more widely spoken than Irish in the Gaeltacht as it currently stands. That's the harsh reality. Sometimes things have to be reduced to 'cold hard data'. But perhaps some people would rather not look at the data. Let's have a free for all and bestow Gaeltacht status on any café where gaeilgeoirs meet! Why stop there?

It makes a mockery of the very concept of the 'Gaeltacht' to let these communities which have almost completely given over to English in the space of two generations to remain. All the while lumping in regions which have managed to stave off full scale language shift. Why should they be treated the same?

I've always distingued between the areas where Irish is still widely spoken and areas like Claregalway etc where English (and probably Polish) are more widely spoken than Irish.

How would your proposals actually work, Seán?

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 17, 2009)

Wide doesn't necessarily mean loose. Wide policy means that there is more room to accommodate situations which are unique. For instance, a café like Caifé Úna was unique, in the heart of Dublin. Loose policy implies lack of rigorous oversight and transperancy, and inefficient implementation. That's not what I mean. So I favor a widely defined Gaeltacht, which would be able to address the major movements going on outside of the current government Gaeltachaí.

Most of all I am interested in a uniform policy, for one nation, and for the Irish language alone. Uniform means applied equally to all geographic regions, no matter what the percentages are. One means that there is not Irish Ireland and English Ireland, but Ireland with Irish and English (in that order). And alone means that Irish aid would be detachted from rural aid or any other program. There should be a whole separate department separate from rural affairs or arts, or heritage, or education, and placed above these departments to direct them so that those sectors would foster the language. There should be a check in the system from the lower departments, though, and the departments would still work closely together (and end some of the overlapping of these departments). The Gaeltacht as defined by the government could be something along the lines of Scripture: Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

I'm not a statesman, so I am not pretending to have the answer, but I do know that the whole relationship between Gaeltacht and State needs to be reexamined.

The proposed Údarás na Gaeilge may do just that.

I believe that the fíor-ghaeltachtaí have specific needs that require specific attention. In my view, a uniform policy would be misplaced.

The relationship between the Gaeltacht and the State is out of whack because the Gaeltacht as it's currently defined is mostly English speaking!!! That's the problem. It desperately needs updating. And if that includes some form of Gaeltacht status for 'speaking communities' in urban, English speaking areas or even individual businesses or language centres, so be it.

quote:

One means that there is not Irish Ireland and English Ireland, but Ireland with Irish and English (in that order).

But they aren't in that order Seán. Except in the fíor-ghaeltachtaí. Again I ask, why should districts where Irish speakers make up the majority be treated the same as ones where language shift has already taken place, or where people only speak Irish when the grants inspector comes round? And as far as a nationwide policy is concerned, why should Camus or Cnoc Fola or even Cúil Aodha be treated essentially the same as Coolock or Carlingford?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting a setup where little or no distinction would be made between long standing Irish speaking communities in the current Gaeltacht and areas in other parts of the country where native Irish has been dead for two hundred years or more!

How does your proposal advance the Irish language? All I'm saying is that a little reality check is needed. Enough with this farce. Enough about hearing how people entered 'An Ghaeltacht' and heard nothing but English (and Polish, and Chinese and...) because the boundaries are so outdated.

Either the boundaries are significantly reduced or the whole concept of the Gaeltacht is scrapped and something new put in its place. Because right now, there are probably dozens of communties in the country with as 'much' [meaning very little] Irish as Bearna or Claregalway or Gibbstown, yet are outside the Gaeltacht.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 17, 2009)

quote:

And alone means that Irish aid would be detachted from rural aid or any other program. There should be a whole separate department separate from rural affairs or arts, or heritage, or education, and placed above these departments to direct them so that those sectors would foster the language.

That is a good point. It is also part of the effect of the official languages act.

With regard to Danny's points, I think a distinction needs to be drawn between populations which have been Irish speaking but have become swamped by inward migration of English speakers. If what Lughaidh calls the chain of transmission has been preserved there, then I see merit in treating them differently to similar percentage populations of speakers who have recently formed a network.

I think the categorisation of Gaeltacht outlined in the Commissions report could be the basis for a sliding scale of policies - emphasising the fíor Gaeltacht (Irish still/mostly predominant) but supporting populations which have been eroded due to factors outside their control.

These populations also - geographically speaking - can function as buffer zones for stronger Gaeltachtaí.

Tá aithne agam ar cáilín ó Léim an Bhradáin agus tá sí ag múineadh Gaeilge anseo i Maidrid anois :) Tá mé ag ceapadh gur fhreastal sí ar an Gaelscoil ansin nuair a bhí sí óg..

(Message edited by diarmo on November 18, 2009)

(Message edited by diarmo on November 18, 2009)

People apportion far too much blame on the Government. The Government has to do this, the Government should do that! Fact is there should be a focus on the lack of intergenerational transmission and the propensity for teenagers in Gaeltacht areas to relate to each other in English. No amount of Government grants are going to change that however innovative ways of increasing usage is required and these being agreed by the community ie community backed and based project rather than Government led.

I also am very much in favour of having satellite towns near Gaeltacht areas such as Dungarvan for An Rinn, Letterkenny for Gweedore, Macroom for Cúil Aodha and Athboy for Rath Chairn which would be given special status for use of Irish in their business's.

Danny2007 wrote "Because right now, there are probably dozens of communties in the country with as 'much' [meaning very little] Irish as Bearna or Claregalway or Gibbstown, yet are outside the Gaeltacht. "

Certainly Carn Tóchair, Cluain Dolcáin and Bóthar na BhFál/Bóthar Seoige would be eligible for Gaeltacht status as defined by 1926 Gaeltacht boundaries of areas between 25-75% Irish speakers included in the breacgaeltacht.And so these areas could replace the afforementioned areas by Danny2007 which would not result in much of a net loss populationwise.

However I don't agree with awarding Gaeltacht status to speaking communities or Irish speaking networks in cities and towns

quote:

These populations also - geographically speaking - can function as buffer zones for stronger Gaeltachtaí

I agree, buffer zones that surround the Fíor-Ghaeltachtaí is a good idea because there can be attempts to revive Irish in them breac-Ghaeltachtaí buffer zones. I don't agree that Gaeltacht areas should only be awarded to places that is Irish speaking, it wouldn't be right putting a ''An Ghaeltacht'' sign right where the linguistic border starts.

I'd say get rid of areas such as Gibbstown, Ring of Kerry Gaeltacht, Achill island, Belmullet, Claregalway, since they are on their own and breac-Ghaeltachtaí and these places are about as Irish speaking as Japan.

(Message edited by trigger on November 18, 2009)

quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting a setup where little or no distinction would be made between long standing Irish speaking communities in the current Gaeltacht and areas in other parts of the country where native Irish has been dead for two hundred years or more!

I think the government created distinction (based on where you live) is detrimental, because it creates a tiered (or classed) system of Irish. The people who don't fit into that class are discriminated against, and so you have a counter-effect of resentment. This, in my view, does not foster coordination amongst the Irish speakers of different socio-economic conditions. It doesn't focus on what they have in common, the language, and instead focuses on what they don't have in common, their income, region, and vocation. The Irish language and rural affairs, for instance, should be handled separately. Of course, none of these exist in a vacuum, socio-economic conditions and the Irish language are intimately intertwined.

But just to bring up Caifé Úna again. Úna Nic Gabhann is from the Donegal Gaeltacht, and where is she? In Dublin. She is teaching Irish as well. The point of bringing her up is, this is what a lot of Gealtacht people do, they leave the Gaeltacht, but their language comes with them.

Analogy:

1 cup water
10 cups wine

Poor the water into the wine. What do you see? What looks like wine.

The water is the Gaeltacht speakers who have moved out of the Gaeltacht and mingled with the wine. The wine is the English first majority.

I know this isn't the greatest analogy, but the point is that the population has been spread out from the Gaeltacht into the centers of commerce. That is one of the big reasons why you see Irish cropping up in places unexpected, but wondering why the Gaeltacht sees a decrease.

As for government involvement, I agree to not wait for the government. People should take initiative and call their group of steady Irish speakers a gaeltacht to break out of the paradigm that many have been set into.

To quote Michal on Aonghus:

"Aonghus is a native speaker from Dublin who carries his Gaeltacht with him all the time. Anywhere within two metres of him is a Gaeltacht."

But a far cry from a living population, where the chain of transmission is unbroken.

Language is a natural resource. Just because there are some redwoods growing in botanic gardens far away from their original habitat is not a reason to avoid declaring the original forests a national park.

OK, this is tricky when dealing with something as volatile as a human community, but I think the analogy is useful.

We need methods which encourage communities to remain together in the Gaeltacht, providing the habitat for language transmission not just from parent to child but from generation to generation - across a spectrum - The priest, the teacher, the doctor, the garda, the publican, the shopkeeper all speaking Irish to the teenagers.

That is not possible outside the fíor Gaeltacht.

Since the Government provides many of these services, and the conditions for many more - Governemnt action, targetted, is needed to support local communties.

Otherwise, things are fine until the Irish speaking Doctor/Nurse/Garda moves on - and is replaced by an English Speaker.

But you can continue the analogy. Like a national park or a zoo, people love to visit them and even contibute to their existance, as long as what is in them stays within them. The old "not in my backyard" syndrom -- the Irish language is all and well as long as I'm not involved (or have to make an effort, etc.). The idea is to separate location and class from the language, to try to (slowly) show everyone that the forest used to cover the whole landscape, and it would be a good thing to start planting a tree in your yard, or starting a little preserve in your neighborhood, as a start.

There are two ways to pass on the language:

- by force
- by voluntary participation

Force (active or passive), although a strong word, comes into play actively in the schools and when certain bodies need to comply with laws. I don't think it is unjust to require school children to learn Irish, just as history and literature are compulsory topics. The way to do this, though, is by designing great programs that create a love of the language within the children, so that by the time they leave school, if not fluent, they'll actively continue their studies and seek out ways to use the language. This is probably the most common method of "recruitment" in Ireland. (The passive force is the child learning in the home, where English is not resorted to, so there is a necessity to use it at least in the early years.)

Voluntary participation is what a lot of people are doing on this board. Conditions need to be created in which those who are free to ignore Irish don't. This is also the method in which the parent language is passed on to the children (but they are of age to ignore it) and the population is hopefully (at least) replacing their numbers, or, if they are single, increasing them though teaching more than one person.

The fíor-Gaeltach is vital to this, because the source is mostly there from which is drawn the teachers. But the Gaeltacht as a defined body should be about language. If people are leaving those areas, that needs to be addressed across multiple fields. The plain truth is that people have been leaving rural areas for the city centers since the enclosures of the common fields and the complete shift of the late Middle Age economy to the modern industrial/post-industrial economy in which less hands are needed to produce more resources, and the rural folk left their homes in search of better jobs and better conditions (or completely to another land). The whole topic is very complex when you think about it -- the myriad decisions made, consciously and unconsciously, by Irish speakers to move, abandon their language, not pass it on, etc. The solutions have to be numerous, slow going, and tuned to a case by case basis. You have to create a positive feedback loop!

quote:

these places are about as Irish speaking as Japan.

It occurs to me that the criteria are wrong. The understanding is wrong or deficient. The mindset that imagines there is a total divide between "Irish-speaking" and "English-speaking" Ireland fails to understand that most people in Ireland respect Irish, would "love" to be able to speak it, have been taught it at school, and can, in a non-judgemental situation, share their considerable knowledge of Irish with each other and with their children.

One and three quarter million people (?) indicated some degree of knowledge of Irish and that figure is growing census by census.

Academic linquists, being rigorous scientists, may fail to see the wood for the trees. This magic figure of 10,000 or 25,000 or 80,000 etc triggers their innate pessimism.

I agree everything possible must be done to maintain Irish as a community language where possible but do not forget the rising tide of Irish in the larger community which to all intents and purposes appears to be a typical English-speaking community. It is not. Nor can it be assumed that all those are hostile who having tried to learn Irish at school and through no fault of their own failed to achieve fluency. What other country in Europe has achieved such a degree of bilingualism in a lesser-used language. How did those whom we hear night after night on Nuacht TG4 aquire their fluency?

I sometimes think Daltaí should have a third and fourth section: one of interest to Academic Linguists and the other an "English only section"

That would give us a choice:

Gaeilge amháin / Irish only
Gaeilge agus Béarla d'fhoghlaimeoirí / Irish and English for learners
Teangeolaithe atá ag foghlaim na Gaeilge / Linguists studying Irish
Béarla amháin / English only

quote:

Teangeolaithe atá ag foghlaim na Gaeilge / Linguists studying Irish

That would be quite a sober place.

:-) Solemn or sombre perhaps. Sober? Gan deoch ar bith ná braon crua de shú na heornan? Ar éigean é. goa

But many more than 1.6 million people have gone through the Irish education system. Why are literally a million plus people indicating no ability to speak Irish at all after 13 years in school? And why are the majority of those 1.6 million who *DO* claim some ability to speak Irish say they either NEVER speak the language or speak it 'LESS OFTEN'?

The fact some people can speak a couple of sentences of Irish or whatever is no cause for celebration. It means very little, in my view. It's not something most people actively choose. For the most part, it's only because of 'compulsory status' that people have a smattering of Irish. That's not an attack on compulsion, but let's not fool ourselves here. All the respect and goodwill in the world won't actually help the language in and of itself.

If you're going to trot out the figure of a million and three quarters Irish speakers, it's only fair to wonder what happened to the other 2 million plus individuals. Most who have encountered Irish in school.

quote:

Academic linquists, being rigorous scientists, may fail to see the wood for the trees. This magic figure of 10,000 or 25,000 or 80,000 etc triggers their innate pessimism.

Why? Why is this always equated with 'pessimism'. How about realism, Taidhgín? And in my experience, most of these 'academic linguists' are Irish speakers themselves who want nothing but the best for the language.

You yourself said that the involuntary speaking of Irish is passing, yet you also said that 'the best is yet to come'. Can you explain this?

(Message edited by Danny2007 on November 18, 2009)

On the subject of Irish in the Education System:

quote:

The findings come from large-scale comparative national surveys conducted over a seventeen year period(Harris 1984, 1988, 1991; Harris et al 2006; Harris & Murtagh 1988, 1999).

quote:

At the level of individual objectives, the percentage of pupils who now achieve high levels of performance ('mastery') in nearly all aspects of Irish Listening and Speaking has fallen significantly since the mid-1980s. Correspondingly, the percentage of pupils now failing has grown significantly.

quote:

[t]here was a fall of 36.1% and 40.5% respectively in the percentages mastering the Listening vocabulary and General comprehension of speech objectives. This leaves very small minorities of pupils in ordinary schools (only 5.9% and 7.8% of pupils respectively) who now achieve mastery on these two objectives. Objectives relating to Understanding the morphology of verbs in listening and Understanding the morphology of prepositions in listening are associated with falls of 24% and 22.1% respectively, with only 2.9% and 11.9% respectively now still mastering these objectives.

quote:

In the case of a number of Irish Speaking objectives (such as Speaking vocabulary and Control of the morphology of verbs in speaking), the percentage failing now constitutes a majority. The percentage failing Speaking vocabulary is 65.9%, while for Control of the morphology of verbs it is 76.5%, and for Control of the syntax of statements 64.1%.

quote:

For most objectives, the decline in the percentage of pupils in ordinary schools attaining mastery is associated with a moderate increase in the percentage of pupils reaching the lower level of performance defined as 'minimal progress', but a larger increase in the percentages failing.

Extracts from: 'A New View of the Irish Language', Caoilfhionn Nic Pháidín & Seán Ó Cearniagh (eds), Cois Life, Dublin, 2008.
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=5135

Essay entitled "Irish in the Education System' by John Harris. Director of Research in the School of Linguistics, Speech and Communication Sciences in Trinity College Dublin. (p. 178-190)

Further reading:

Harris, J. 1984. Spoken Irish in primary schools. Dublin. Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann.

Harris, J. 1988. 'Spoken Irish in the primary school system', in The international journal of the sociology of language 70: 69-87.

Harris, J. 1991. 'The contribution of primary schools to the maintenance of Irish' in Kroon, S. & K. Jaspaert (eds), Ethnic minority languages and education. Amsterdam. Swets & Zeitlinger.

Harris, J. 1997. 'Speaking proficiency in Irish in primary school children: Educational and sociolinguistic factors' in Wolck, W. & A. De Houwer (eds), Plurilingual XVIII: Recent studies in contact linguistics. Brussels. Research Centre on Multilingualism at the Catholic University of Brussels.

Harris, J., P. Forde, P. Archer, S. Nic Fhearaile & M. O'Gorman. 2006. Irish in primary school: Long-term national trends in achievement. Dublin. Department of Education and Science.

Harris, J. & L. Murtagh, 1988. 'National assessment of Irish-language speaking and listening skills in primary-school children: Research issues in the evaluation of school-based heritage-language programmes' in Language, culture and curriculum 1(2): 85-130.

Ní mian liom teacht salach ar an gcomhrá atá ar bun agaibh faoi láthair ach ó tharla gan mé cláraithe leis an bhfóram seo, níl de rogha agam ach a bhfuil le rá agam (faoin gcomhra a bhí ar siúl cúpla seachtain ó shin agaibh faoin mBéarlachas) a rá anseo.

Ba mhaith liom cur leis an méid adúirt Taidhgín cúpla seachtain ó shin .i. "Is linne an teanga anois. Déanfaimid ár gcuid féin di. Cén fáth nár tharraing tú an tAthair de Hindeburg chugat féin. Níl in Ó Béarra ach tráchtaire. Fear léannta. Scoláire.".

Tá an ceart aige. Níl ionamsa ach tráchtaire. Níl agamsa ach mar is léir dom féin an scéal agus ní cóir (ach coir!) do dhaoine bheith ag tabhairt sleachta móra fada as an méid a scríobh mé mar thaca leis an leagan amach simplí (gan Ghaeilge) atá acu féin ar an scéal. Diabhal aithne nach cineál manifesto acu an méid a scríobhas.

I gcead don chomhluadar, feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'.

Is fada fiannach an lá an 'Béarlachas' agus ‘Ceart na Gaeilge’ i gceist agus is coincheapa iad, dar liom, a d’eascair as an aird ar leith a bhíodh ag Gaeil ar chúrsaí cruinnis agus cirt.

Tá constráid an Ghaeilgeora gan cháim .i. an cainteoir foirfe ar cheann de na coincheapa sin a d’eascair as an ró-luí sin le Ceart na teanga. Is éard is ciall leis an nGaeilgeoir gan cháim – an té a a bhfuil Gaeilge ghlan cheart aige, an té a dtabharfaí “[a] well of undefiled Gaelic [speech]” air – mar a thug duine amháin ar Mhàiri Mhòr nan Oran in Albain.

Ní chreidim go raibh a leithéid riamh ann agus an Gaeilgeoir gan cháim ná go deimhin an Ghaeilge gan cháim. Is féidir a ghoil siar sa litríocht agus na scórtha sampla de “Dhroch-Ghaeilge” nó de “bhotúin” a thabhairt as an litríocht sin. Is constráid de dhéantús an aosa léinn agus na hAthbheochana atá ann, constráid a dhall lucht an Caighdeáin Oifigiúil (mar shampla), dá mbuíochas, ar fhírinne shearbh na cainte beo. Is cuma cén tréimhse den Ghaeilge atá i gceist, bíonn ‘botúin’ le fáil – ó aimsir na hOghamchraoibhe i leith.

Bhí, agus go deimhin tá fós, coincheap an Ghaeilgeora gan cháim mar a bheadh galar orainn – mar a bheadh neurosis teangachais ann, an téarma a bhí ag Séamus Daltún: “Is féidir, ar ndóigh,” adúirt an Daltúnach, “bheith rócháiréiseach i dtaobh focal agus leaganacha, faoi mar is féidir le duine bheith ag cur an iomarca suime i bhfeidhmeanna a choirp. Ní rud sláintiúil é má téitear thar fóir leis. D’fhéadfadh neurosis teangachais teacht ar dhuine chomh maith le haon sórt neurosis eile” (Daltún 1957, 21).

Is í an néaróis teanga seo a d’fhág go bhfuil an Ghaeilge chomh casta mar theanga inniu agus is cúis leis na heisceachtaí ar fad atá inti. Is í freisin is cúis leis an bhforcheartú a bhíonn ar bun ag cuid mhaith Gaeilgeoirí. Tá an chastacht seo ar cheann de na constaicí is mó atá roimh an nGaeilge mar theanga atá sothuigthe sofhoghlama.

Ní teanga chaighdeánach aontoiseach ‘fhoirfe’ a bhí sa nGaeilge riamh. Is coincheap saorga a bhí agus atá sa nGaeilgeoir gan cháim. Teanga bheo a bhí (agus atá fós) sa nGaeilge a mb’éigean í a smachtú (agus a chúngú dá réir) mar nach raibh lucht a labhartha is a scríofa iad féin aontoiseach ná foirfe. Pé aontoiseacht nó foirfeacht a bhain leo siúd a chuaigh romhainn, tá athrú chomh mór tagtha ar an tsochaí in Éirinn le dhá scór bliain anuas gur beag más féidir na téarmaí sin a úsáid ar chor ar bith feasta fiú sna ceantair agus sna réimsí den saol is tréine Gaeilge. Ní mór aghaidh a thabhairt ar an bhfírinne .i. go bhfuil tréimhse nua (murab ionann agus ré nua, seans) i ndán don Ghaeilge.

Go buíoch beanachtach,

Feargal Ó Béarra

Bullaí fir, a Fheargail!

Maith thú as cur leis an síor plé!

I think a massive problem is that Irish speakers in the Galltacht -those 1.6 million referred to by Danny2007, do not use Irish unless going to the Gaeltacht or specific Irish language events organised by say Conradh na Gaeilge. A lot of Irish speakers I know see Irish as only a hobby and only for the classroom instead of a living language they could use daily in their work offering bilingual service and or as the language of the home with their family. In my area I organise a twice monthly teacht le chéile for Irish speakers in my local town with poor turnout likewise I'm trying to set up a drama group and there also seems to be be very little interest. This purplexes me as people constantly say they have no opportunity to speak Irish and yet when events are held they don't go.

Instead of giving out about the Government which by the way supports a tv station, radio station, the Irish medium schools which make up 10 per cent of Irish schools,An Coimisiúnéir Teanga, translation of Government documents, speakers in the Galltacht should look within themselves and see are they contributing in their own small way to a meaningful revival of Irish in the Galltacht. If not why not?

Taidghín ,did you meet any pupils from Pobal Scoil Chorca Dhuibhne? They don't seem a very happy bunch on Ratemyteacher.com! There again all the posts were as béarla.Maybe more help is need for the parents who are not fluent.Or the non native speaker's kids could be weekly boarders for a few weeks(money?).My old bosses son was hopeless at Irish.They sent him to Scoil na nOg for year 6.He is doing a degree in Irish at UCD now.

The idea for 'hub' towns Athboy,Macroom,etc is a good one.They should be encouraged to see their local Gaeltacht as a resource.As for the gombeen developers:they cant speak English.'Downs' are chalk hills ffs and a 'hurst' is a wood.'Ongar' is not a 'village',it is a rather grotty suburb on the Essex/East London border.Gabh mo leithscéal ,I've lost the plot now.....

Macdara:

quote:

Taidghín, did you meet any pupils from Pobal Scoil Chorca Dhuibhne? They don't seem a very happy bunch on Ratemyteacher.com! There again all the posts were as béarla

I wonder have you read An tOllamh Máirtín Ó Murchú's booklet "Teanga agus Pobal" (?) where he describes diglossia. In a bilingual community people use the different languages for different functions. In the Gaeltacht English is the language for everything except speaking to Mamó, Daideo, an múinteoir scoile, na cairde sa chlub Gaelainne, srl. Anything related to the big world outside the home and fireside is in English.

Don't forget they want their negative views of their hated teachers to be understood by you, Macdara, and everyone else in the whole wide world.

I wouldn't rate the ratemyteachers site very highly however. It must be awful to work in a job where your every word and move is liable to ridicule and criticism on a public forum where one malicious person can put up twenty anonymous messages.

The happy students would treat that site with the contempt it deserves and get on with their studies.

Danny2007:

quote:

But many more than 1.6 million people have gone through the Irish education system. Why are literally a million plus people indicating no ability to speak Irish at all after 13 years in school? And why are the majority of those 1.6 million who *DO* claim some ability to speak Irish say they either NEVER speak the language or speak it 'LESS OFTEN'?

I do not know where you live or are from, Danny2007, but I suspect that if you look around the schools in your own area -- where ever that is -- you will discover there are similar success and failure rates in teaching mother-tongue literacy, maths, science, etc not to mention a second language, as there are teaching Irish in Ireland.

Irish is not a neutral subject carrying no baggage for the autochthonous denizens of the island. It is easier for the incoming Poles, Lithuanians, Bosnian children etc to learn Irish than it is for some of the locals who carry the controversial and contrary views of their parents and neighbours.

For some people Irish is down there with the cant (caint) of the Travellers and the beautiful dialects of English spoken in the inner-city Dublin tenements. That's just social class.

Then there is politics.

Ireland's population is not homogenous. Surveys reveal that while two thirds of the population are in some way "in favour of Irish" there has always been a huge minority virulently opposed to any toleration of the teaching of Irish. They employ every ruse to avoid learning it. Imagine if the whole island were under the one juristiction. The Unionists would have views on the Irish language.

When the Union Jack was lowered in Dublin Castle and the Tricolour raised in 1922 no similar change occurred in the attitudes of the Irish population.

Those who identified with Britain in some way did not suddenly change their allegience because of changes at the top.

Those who had crushed every tiny vestige of the Irish language in their own speech did not suddenly develop an ardent desire to learn Irish. :-) They remained sullen and hurt at the change. Many still do. They pour scorn and ridicule on anyone foolhardy enough to speak Irish in their presence or express approval of the language. They want to rid themselves of it and not hear it or see it.

Those of the native Irish who had been forced to abandon their parents' language in order to be "dacent" and able to sell their cow at the fair or buy from the shop without incurring the ridicule of the "townies" for not knowing English were delighted to see the English get their come uppance at last.

Sadly the opposition to the learning of Irish has been very strong and it is amazing that the education system has succeeded so well. Considering the size of the English-speaking population of the world that dominates all languages our tiny Irish-speaking population hasn't done at all badly in preserving our language until now.

As for a more recent decline in the standard of Irish in schools that is as a result of Government policy. Many of the supports which ensured that teachers knew the language well and that pupils learnt it well have been removed.

There once were Coláistí Ullmhúcháin and Teacher Training Colleges teaching all through Irish. Infant classes and senior infant classes were taught through Irish and thus children such as myself learnt Irish first at school.

Irish was a requirement for State examinations. Would that be unusual in Europe? Can people pass State exams in Denmark or Holland without knowing the national and first official language? Ireland's independence is a very weak fragile "donaí" plant / concept and not only financially.


Now pupils might be lucky to meet even one fluent, enthusiastic, inspiring, Irish-speaking teacher in their whole period of "compulsory" education. Such teachers have no difficulty teaching Irish. Their classes are a pleasure.

Why don't the good scholars speak the language? Would you if you knew that one third of your English-speaking neighbours would ridicule you; one third would not understand you; and one third would suspect your motives. "Eh, is he ... eh ... a bit ... you know?"

We've got to live in the real world, Danny2007, and you can't speak Irish to strangers. Paradoxically you'll never hear Irish spoken until you know it well enough to speak it yourself. Then you'll be tumtha báite inti agus beidh fáilte romhat inár measc.

Feargal:
Go raibh maith agat. Táim i mo Chúchulainn anseo ag iarraidh an fód a sheasamh sa bhearna baoil. Faoiseamh dom nár úirt mé a dhath a bhí ró-amaideach.

I gcead don chomhluadar, feictear dom gurbh fhearrde an Ghaeilge dá gcaití níos mó ama á foghlaim seachas ag síorchaint ar 'Béarlachas'.

Aontaím go hiomlán leat. Ba chóir an aird a dhíriú níos mó ar an teanga fhéin.

quote:

if you look around the schools in your own area -- where ever that is -- you will discover there are similar success and failure rates in teaching mother-tongue literacy, maths, science, etc not to mention a second language, as there are teaching Irish in Ireland.

I can vouch that California, one of the top-ten economies of the world, has mastered standard sub-standard education, producing many degreed individuals who have command of following commands, and the other 20% who didn't finish eeking out a living in the bohemeth "service" economy. They even started a "Distinguished School" program, but the problem is every school is now "distinguished"! If we tried to do a bilingual Spanish/English society, it would be a miserable failure! The Irish should be commended for the part they have done.

quote:

I think a massive problem is that Irish speakers in the Galltacht -those 1.6 million referred to by Danny2007, do not use Irish unless going to the Gaeltacht or specific Irish language events organised by say Conradh na Gaeilge.

I would go a step further and say that *some* of those 1.6 million wouldn't consider themselves 'Irish speakers' at all. But rather people who have the ability to speak some Irish because of school. I don't consider myself a Spanish speaker because I know half a dozen phrases and recognise and understand many words in that particular language. Nor do I consider myself a Low German/Plattdüütsch speaker because I know a few sentences from my older relatives.

Some of the most illogical, vitriolic anti-Irish rants I've ever heard have come out of the mouths of people who say they can speak Irish, yet never use it. And it's amazing how many said they did LC Honours Irish yet barely retained anything after their schooldays had passed.

quote:

speakers in the Galltacht should look within themselves and see are they contributing in their own small way to a meaningful revival of Irish in the Galltacht.

It all depends on what we define as an 'Irish speaker'. I imagine most who are fluent are in fact doing what they can to contribute to the 'revival'. Again I think it's useful to distinguish between an Irish speaker and someone who has the ability to utter a few phrases that they learned by rote. I'm just not convinced that most of these self proclaimed Irish speakers in the census are all that bothered about the language or 'reviving it'. If they were, we'd hear it on the ground much more...surely?

I worked with a woman from north Tipperary who was in her 30s. She said she thought Irish was a very beautiful, spiritual language. But she couldn't speak a word except this long religious poem which she could recite at will all those years later. And it was a very long one too! But she could recite it (and once did) with ease. It was the one thing that had stuck because it had been relentlessly pounded into her brain at school.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I think relatively few of the people who are marking themselves down as 'Irish speakers' on the census either:

a) have the fluency to have a sustained conversation in Irish [without switching back to English]

nor

b) have the will to improve their Irish so they could use it in a meaningful way in their day to day lives

Perhaps this is common knowledge. Perhaps not. I don't think it's 'pessimistic' in and of itself, anyway.

Taidhgín,

I agree with you completely that Irish is not a neutral subject in Ireland, and yes, it does carry a lot of baggage.

quote:

Those of the native Irish who had been forced to abandon their parents' language in order to be "dacent" and able to sell their cow at the fair or buy from the shop without incurring the ridicule of the "townies" for not knowing English

Which time period are you referring to? By most accounts, Ireland was a largely bilingual country for the better part of one hundred and fifty years. c. 1750-1900. The monoglot Irish speaking population was quite low even in the early 1800s. Immediately after the Great Famine it was around 5% (circa 319,000). By 1901 it was 0.5% (21,000). By the time the Irish Free State came into existence it must have been even lower. Two sets of data that I've seen put the figure at around 10,000. In the early 19th century, at least half the population had Irish as their first language, yet there were relatively few who had no English.

By the time Irish was being declared as the 'National Language' in Saorstát Eireann in 1922, very few people would have had to 'make the switch' to English, since the overwhelming number of people in the country could speak it already.

And I think that's why some of the policies pursued were misguided. English was already too entrenched by the time a truly native government was in control. By most accounts, literally 99%+ of the population could speak English with varying degrees of fluency. On the other hand, about 17% could speak Irish, with native speakers outnumbering learners somewhere in the realm of 9 to 1 (others put it at a ratio of 7 to 1). Was it reasonable to expect that Irish could once again assume its former position as the most widely spoken language in the land? And if not, would different policies have produced better results?

quote:

As for a more recent decline in the standard of Irish in schools that is as a result of Government policy. Many of the supports which ensured that teachers knew the language well and that pupils learnt it well have been removed.

There once were Coláistí Ullmhúcháin and Teacher Training Colleges teaching all through Irish. Infant classes and senior infant classes were taught through Irish and thus children such as myself learnt Irish first at school.

With all that in mind, is it time for a new direction? If the supports aren't there, is a policy of compulsory Irish up to the leaving cert a viable policy, especially in the new Ireland, with many thousands of 'new Irish' children entering the schools. Few will have the emotional connection to the language that many born in Ireland do. Even if it's vestigial. I think Irish should be taught in *ALL* schools in Ireland (north and south), but I'm not convinced that it should be taught all the way through. But considering the amount of students getting exemptions these days, perhaps 'compulsory status' isn't an entirely accurate term for it.

quote:

Irish was a requirement for State examinations. Would that be unusual in Europe? Can people pass State exams in Denmark or Holland without knowing the national and first official language?

I believe it was unusual in the sense that Irish wasn't widely spoken in the country when the policy was set up. Unlike in Ireland, most Danes speak the first (or in this case, the only) official language of their country. In the Netherlands, the vast majority of Dutch citizens count Dutch as their mother tongue. I believe 95% or so, with minority languages like Frisian, Low German/Low Saxon and the large Turkish speaking community there as lesser used vernaculars.

quote:

We've got to live in the real world, Danny2007

That's what I'm trying to do! I'm trying to think critically.

quote:

I do not know where you live or are from, Danny2007

I'm not Irish. I'm from Vancouver, Canada originally...and although I had some interest in Irish before I went there the first time, it was heightened tenfold after spending a total of about 16 months in Ireland. I'm referring to my most recent time spent there...which was last year. Part of that was spent living and working in the west Kerry Gaeltacht (Dún Chaoin). I also really enjoyed traveling around most of the Kerry and Donegal Gaeltachtaí, with lesser time spent in Mayo, Conamara and Inis Meáin. I spent the better part of 75 days in the official Gaeltacht...focusing on the fíor-ghaeltachtaí when possible. Plus two months just in Dún Chaoin. It wasn't nearly enough though! Oideas Gael was a nice learning experience as well. I'll admit to not having the same deep emotional attachment to Irish that many Irish people have for it. How could I? But at the same time, as an 'interested observer' (who's slowwwwly working towards being an active speaker) who has at least seen a lot of the country firsthand (especially the Gaeltacht), I feel it's easier to have a relatively dispassionate view of the whole situation. Undoubtedly that will rub some people the wrong way (and I guess it has in the past), but I'm genuinely in favour of Irish being more widely spoken, and used in all areas of life in your country.
The biggest challenge right now is staying motivated since I'm once again thousands and thousands of kilometres away from Ireland. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from in terms of my interest in Irish.

Thank you for introducing yourself, Danny. I respect your point of view even though I would prefer to consider all the indicators of success and improvement in the position of Irish rather than spend time studying the negative side which is blatantly obvious to all.

Less obvious are the green shoots of growth such as TG4, RTÉ Raidio na Gaeltachta, Gaelscoileanna, and all the new translators that are working now as a result of the Act Teanga 2003 and the young Irish scholars that find themselves working as part of the translation staff in Brussels.

Those of us seeking to preserve, promote, revive, enrich, or just use Irish know what we are up against. We know and regret how weak and feeble the language is at all levels throughout the country and wish it were otherwise but just as your "woman from north Tipperary could recite a poem in Irish" so we each do what little we can to identify with the language in whatever way we can. Could you not admire her for making her own of that poem rather than add the pejorative "relentlessly pounded into her brain at school". If she spoke Irish would you say she could not speak it well? That she only had a few phrases she learned by rote? What is your purpose here on this forum?

Whether you know it or not, Danny2007, you come across as being firmly in the "against Irish" camp. You provide statistical information to discourage people and you seem to identify with the most negative pessimistic views.

I do not intend to discuss this further. Thanks for your courtesy.