My topic of interest is attaining fluency.

A few questions to each of you:

First- when would you consider someone fluent in Irish (or any language)?

Is it understanding and articulating things using Irish grammatical logic? I mean, there are many who have Irish, but use Bearla sentence structures; smaoiteann siad as Bearla 'is labhrann siad as Gaeilge. (This goes for most language aquisition, especially outside of your native language group, methinks). Is such attainment truly possible outside of native, first language learners?

Second- If you are fluent, how did you come to be? Who, or what aided you in doing so?

Third- In which order did the mastery of reading, writing, and speaking come to you?

So many have some general command of the language... I.e., they can go on vacation to Italy and discuss women on the street without fear of a slap...or slag someone off sitting next to them on the train... which... the language needs in order to get off the ground, of course. But, what of poetry, scholarship, authorship. Certainly part of the problem must be in the limits of great, modern day readable prose and poetry as Gaelige- that doesn't have to do with old women starving in the Blaskets. I'm aware, of course, of the historic folklore I'm talking about the makings of a modern day Irish language renaissance, so to speak. I think much of the success with English can be attributed to the advent of the printed word.

Do you think the gaelscoileanna have the potential to assist in the making of gaeilgeoirs whose command of the language is great enough that we could attain, or at least retain what's left of Irish's great lingual wealth? Are there resources? Is the quality of Irish being taught substantial enough to revive it's greatness? Can it, in it's modern conception, rival the the English language artistically? Or have most of the finer details been lost to time?

What is most important at this point: the quantity of speakers, or the quality of their Irish? I guess, it is a question of focus, also. A person who cannot afford to feed themselves seldom wonders about the weather on the African plains, just as a nation who his holding onto it's language for dear life may not be worried about what will be lost to time and translation.

Sorry if I'm being a bit philosophical. This came to mind while I was reading a paper on the subject.

GRMA,

BM

I know just what you mean about thinking as Béarla.When I try to speak or write as Gaeilge the English syntax shows through.The most common form is overuse of the verbal noun- or present continuous as we used to call it in English grammar.I have only recently copped on why this is so.In Irish,as a rule of thumb,the verb is put as close to the beginning of the sentence as possible.I often struggle to think of the past/conditional form of whatever verb I'm using.Or I mix up the future with the conditional.But I'm pretty much au fait with the verb 'to be'-as you would expect!

So I cheat by contant use of the formula 'Bhí mé ag...beidh mé ag..ba mhaith liom bheith ag....blah blah'.

Tough habit to break.One is easily thrown by questions which don't begin 'An raibh?,an bhfuil?an mbeidh?' mar shampla.Short of trappist monk type seclusion in a Gaeltacht;tis a long haul.What was the paper a chara?

Future : déanfaidh mé -- I will do
Conditional : dhéanfainn -- I would do (if...)

A MacDara,

Ní fhaghaim an páipéar anois. I really need to clean up my bookmarks, but I've not had the proper time. It was a paper (I believe I got the link here) that discussed what language existed on the Island before Irish. It was discussing mutations and I found myself thinking about how highly evolved Irish was/is. Prior to that, I was reading poetry and thinking to myself how huge a mountain I needed to climb to ever attain Irish that advanced... natural Irish. As natural as my English. Subsequently- all of the speakers who are so stuck on exams and Peig, and how few there are (I'm sure) who could carry on the (I'm going to say this, though I wish it weren't the case) largely lost literary traditions of the language.

My problem does lie with verbs + sentance structure. It seems to me that most of my struggle is verb arrangement. It's thinking in Irish that gets me. I try to read as much as possible, and fully believe it will eventually help me "feel" the language. I've read a lot about language acquisition in infants and children. Although we acquire language through study, and not as much trial and error (unless we find ourselves in an immersion environment), I know that to some extent our learning has the same basic tenants.

Since I take a sick joy in learning grammar, I'm sure in a few more years of study (and especially if I get into Berkeley, and have the opportunity to study) :D I'll hit that point.

An áit a bhfuil do chroí, is ann a bhéarfaidh do chosa thú.

Lovely seanfhocal.Nior cuala mé an seanfhocal roimhe sin.

Lughaidh - a woman whose family are from Maamtrasna told me to listen out for 'hig',the future and 'huck',the conditional at the ending of the verbs!

Presumably this advice only pertains to the question form of the verb?

1 - my definition of fluency is that the speaker is never at a loss for a nontechnical word while speaking, reading or listening, and can communicate such that what few errors in grammar may exist do not negatively impact the listener's impression of the intelligence/class of the speaker. I'm sure we've all encountered people with accents or language issues that didn't necessarily make us view them in a negative way (and many more whose errors did). If the practical purpose of language is to communicate ideas, anything that accomplishes that has fulfilled its purpose, but that only takes a very low level of error-ridden usage. The rest is class and status. For instance, I teach remedial writing to college students (about half are ESL). Every single one of them can be perfectly understood with their current level of writing. Why do they need to incorporate arcane conventions and rules into their writing? To meet the "academic standard"...in other words, because their current writing gives the impression of a lack of intelligence. Even the native speakers need to become "fluent" in Standard American English.

2 - I am not, yet, but I make the most progress when I am reading on a consistent basis. This is something I eschewed doing for a long time, but am now working my way (slowly) through young adult novels with relish.

3 - writing first because I was doing it more. I frequently need to look up words, and writing gives me the time to do that. After a time, however, my speaking caught up to the writing, and then my reading to my to my aural understanding. I still find reading easier than being on the receiving end of oral communication because I can look up what I don't know.

About the gaelscoileanna - yes there is, in the sense that we retain Shakespeare today. I think that if the language is to survive, there will need to be so many new speakers that they will have an aesthetic effect on the language. Yes, for the first generation or two their conventions will be looked down upon, but over time they will replace the other speakers (who are all in decline) and become the only remaining community. By that time, there will be third- and fourth-generation speakers of the new "dialect," whose pronunciation and conventions, while different from modern gaeltacht Irish, will nonetheless be codified and (eventually) accepted. As with the shift from Middle to Modern English, such radical changes can occur very rapidly. The dialect that will develop from what is today termed "gaelscoil Irish" will be termed "modern Irish" in its day, and our "modern Irish" will be, I don't know, "revival Irish" or "gaeltacht Irish" or some such concept. New works will be produced in the new dialect long before that happens. They will be different from the novels and poetry of the 1930s, but then again isn't that what you're looking for?

If there's will to continue in the language and desire, and there aren't resources, resources will emerge (look at the development of RnaG).

I think the quality is enough to "revive it's greatness"...NOT to revive the old literary dialects...but then again, why would one want to do that? Do we teach kids to speak like Shakespeare or Dickens?

The modern conception absolutely can, but not in the ways that the old conception once did. Any language spoken by a sufficient number of people will develop oral or literary art.

The details of the old dialects may have been lost to time, but new ones will spring up, such is the nature of language evolution. I've long been of the opinion that Irish, for a variety of reasons, resisted massive changes in spite of English language dominance...but that tab is still unpaid...and the pressure has only increased since independence...I suspect that Irish will undergo 500 years of "responding" to English in about three generations before finally settling down.

At this point? The quantity, hands down. Irish needs speakers in numbers great enough to marry each other, raise their kids in the language, and settle near other Irish speaking families so as to conduct business and form Irish-speaking social networks. Without all that, Irish goes the way of Klingon or Esperanto...a hobby language for a few odd ducks who have to enter artificial situations (like immersion programs and classes) in order to have anyone to talk to...

OOPS...I meant to say TnaG, not RnaG, above.

I have to say, I find the idea that the incredibly poor Irish, heavily polluted by English, which has become the norm among learners must inevitably form the basis for Irish in the future deeply depressing and disheartening.

The form of Irish used by many learners is not simply a "more modern" or "less traditional" form of the language that that used in the Gaedhealtachtaí.
It is the speech of people who think in English.
The speech of native speakers is that of people who actually think in Irish as their ancestors have done for centuries if not millennia before them.
If their "traditional" Irish dies out to be replaced by "learners Irish" (or "Hectorese") then the battle has more or less been finally lost as the link with generation after generation of Gaedhealgóirí who thought in Irish - who interpreted and understood the world they lived in through Irish - will be broken forever.
I for one wouldn't see much point studying or speaking that rootless creole. I'd have to stick with the traditional variety, heartbroken to have seen it become a "dead" language in my lifetime.



Ultimately it comes down to acceptance or rejection of current trends.

Everyone, myself included, accepts the fact that languages change over time, that this evolution is a feature of any living language and is, generally, a positive and creative force.
But-
Surely it is abundantly clear that this is not what has been going on in the Irish language in recent times.
Under overwhelming pressure from its rival every aspect of the language is being altered, often radically - vocabulary, syntax, morphology, pronunciation, idioms etc.
This is not the natural process mentioned above but the complete pollution of the language by English.

In fact, I think the promulgation of the view that it is perfectly natural, inevitable and to be embraced is in itself damaging to the language as it gives an excuse to the lazy habits, the "feck it, it'll do" mindset, that has become so widespread.
It could become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Couldn't have said it any better myself! And I say that as a beginner who, if not careful, will merely add to that dilution of the language that seems to continue continue unabated.

Actually, any learner (especially if English is their mother tongue) *WILL* add to it. I think that's inevitable. But the goal should be to try and keep it to a minimum.

But what's the solution?

What effect is 'compulsory status' having? Clearly some teachers aren't qualified to teach Irish, but because of compulsion, have no choice but to do it. There aren't enough good Irish teachers to go around. What effect is this having on the enthusiastic students who pick up bad habits from those teachers who are tasked with teaching a language they themselves aren't fluent in?

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In fact, I think the promulgation of the view that it is perfectly natural, inevitable and to be embraced is in itself damaging to the language as it gives an excuse to the lazy habits, the "feck it, it'll do" mindset

When you consider that learners outnumber native speakers by a huge margin, what do you expect? For some people, just bringing this subject up is tantamount to treason. It's 'pessimistic' and 'self-defeating' etc...

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When you consider that learners outnumber native speakers by a huge margin, what do you expect?

By the way, it's the case with many languages : in the world, I guess there are more learners of English than native speakers, but that doesn't endanger English, because everybody knows that native speech is the model to follow.
While with Irish, many people claim they are native speakers while they aren't, and so learners don't really know what is the model to follow, and they reproduce the mistakes of the "false" native speakers or bad fluent speakers as you can hear on TG4 or on RnaG sometimes...

Well, a couple points:

"I guess there are more learners of English than native speakers, but that doesn't endanger English, because everybody knows that native speech is the model to follow."

No, it doesn't endanger English because English counts hundreds of millions of speakers and is the main language of discourse for entire industrialized nations (US, UK, Canada, Australia, &c)...have you heard Nigerian English lately?

"This is not the natural process mentioned above but the complete pollution of the language by English. "

Please compare English c1066 with English c1300...you will find a "rootless creole" "completely polluted" by Norman French. What did English do? It absorbed massive amounts of vocabulary and grammar (and pronunciation) from French, synthesized it, and became something new...and that something is one of the strongest and healthiest languages in the world today due in some part to its flexibility.

Yes, it is a fine line between "anything goes laziness" and the assimilation of new material and conventions. The former is what it is termed while it is happening, and the latter is what successive generations term it.

...Well, that's a bit tongue-in-cheek, actually. I'm not saying that all marks of laziness should necessarily be adopted into the language, but a language in the position of Irish will tend to absorb from the dominant language. Does this mean pronunciation will change a bit? Sure. Adoption of English-based idioms? Absolutely. Even more radical things like the genesis of a tá/níl yes/no or the dropping of gender? Why would that be so fundamentally different from the dropping of the past tense particle?

That said, I would like to see Irish stay as close to the current gaeltact models as possible, but I realize that complete adherence is an unrealistic goal and insistence on it may kill the language entirely. I'm sorry, but I'd rather live in a world with an Irish than with no Irish, imperfect as you will undoubtedly find her future incarnations.

I have been learning Irish all my life in spite of all the opposition and misery expressed against people like me who want to use the language.

I recognise the attitude expressed in some of the posts above i.e "that Irish is not worth learning if those who have been learning it are anything to go by." Well, go raibh míle maith agat.

How can you generalise that those who have tried to learn Irish aren't good enough, or say they are too influenced by English, too "lazy", or that their's is a "rootless creole"

People who hold such views will not help learners of Irish. Nor will they encourage the use of Irish.

How about adopting another approach: pick some phrase which is in current use i.e. "Tá sé suas duit féin an fhoghlaim a dhéanamh" which is obviously based on the English "It is up to you to do the learning" and offer your own better alternative. If you don't have anything better to offer I ask why not.

Regarding the Gaeltacht: certainly the involuntary speaking of traditional Irish is passing. In any case since emigration and the media have saturated it with vocabulary and structures even what passes for "traditional Irish" in the "Gaeltacht" nowadays is very different from the Irish of a century ago.

There is a lifebelt however: An Caighdeán Oifigiúil and there is a huge corpus of excellent Irish to those of us willing to make the effort to consult it. Not that I as an individual will delve into Seathrún Céitinn, Brian Mac Giolla Meidhre, Máirtín Ó Direáin, Muiris Ó Suilleabháin, or Peig but I assume those preparing the new EID will and that the versions of the transitory phrases of the young will be instantly translated online and made available to the Irish-speakers of the future.

Rant over. Suas leis an nGaeilge = An Ghaeilge abú! = Bua is biseach don Ghaeilge srl.

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What effect is 'compulsory status' having?

While I understand what you're saying about the potential negative effects sub-standard teachers could have on students I don't think this has a large part at all to play with this issue. This pertains more to adult learners, their attitudes and the attitudes of those instructing them.

I firmly believe in compulsory Irish in schools. Exposure to some Irish is infinitely better than none at all. It gives everyone a foundation in the language which they'll retain, to some extent, throughout their lives.
I've taken evening classes recently and amongst those attending were people in their 40's and 50's who had done no Irish since school but they still found the basics they remembered helpful - one man mentioning that one of his main motivations for getting into the language again was a feeling of "unfinished business" he had since leaving school.
I personally am very thankful Irish was compulsory for me. I was one of that very large proportion of students who had little interest in it, moaned with my daft friends about how it would be of no use in the future (to be fair we said that about a lot of things from algebra to geology :) ) and received no encouragement about it from home. Therefore it's extremely unlikely I'd have opted to do it.
But because I did do it I had that life-long familiarity with and basic knowledge - absorbed through sheer osmosis :) - of Irish that all Irish students currently get which was immeasurably helpful when I began to take a serious interest in it.

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When you consider that learners outnumber native speakers by a huge margin, what do you expect?

I expect what I assume would be expected of learners of any language:
that the ultimate goal is to emulate good native speakers as much as possible; that dropping certain aspects of the language because they're difficult or strange simply isn't acceptable and for those teaching it to have enough backbone and simple respect for the language to say when necessary "No, that's wrong - this is how you say it" or "this is how its pronounced".
Many Irish enthusiasts seem terrified to make any criticism of standards for fear of putting learners off. I'm not saying all learners must achieve perfection, of course, but the simple fact is if someone, for instance, can't differentiate between broad and slender "r" then they have not mastered it adequately. They still have work to do with it and there's no way around it.

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Please compare English c1066 with English c1300...you will find a "rootless creole" "completely polluted" by Norman French. What did English do?....

1. I'm well aware of this phase of the history of English and, quite frankly, don't see any real relevance.
Both the time and manner of change in English then and Irish now don't really compare. It was a different world with none of the pressures of mass media and the closely connected popular culture of today.
The vast bulk of the English population continued to live their lives through their native language throughout the period in question.
The momentum towards change came from the top - the political and literary elite - down.
The effects were primarily on vocabulary alone, the Anglo-Saxon framework of the language remains intact.
This was and is not the case with Irish.
2. Yes, things turned out well for English, in spite of not because of the influence of the Norman conquest.
It's become a world language not because of its large Romance-Germanic vocabulary but because of the political and military power of the English state.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but are you seriously suggesting that because English has come through circumstances marginally similar to those of Irish today we can look forward in confidence to the same outcome for Irish?
Can't say I'm convinced.

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How can you generalise that those who have tried to learn Irish aren't good enough, or say they are too influenced by English, too "lazy", or that their's is a "rootless creole"

Who's generalising? My concerns are about the standard of language that some learners seem content to aim for, and that this group is growing.

Taidhgín, d'iarr tú leagan níos fearr air:

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"Tá sé suas duit féin an fhoghlaim a dhéanamh"

an leagan a bheadh agamsa ná:

Fútsa atá sé an fhoghlaim a dhéanamh!

Lean ort, maith an fear!

Go raibh maith agat,a Aonghuis. Aisteach go leor -- ainneoin nach bhfuil agam ach "Revival Irish" (nach fada siar a théann an deilín áirithe seo) -- d'fhágfainn an sé ar lár: fútsa atá an fhoghlaim a dhéanamh.

Sampla é sin a chloistear ar RnaG gach uile lá. Táim ag iarraidh smaoineamh ar chinn eile ...

Seo ceann: múinteoir ag iarraidh ar pháiste cur síos a dhéanamh "ar mo chlann." Faoin am seo chaithfeá cén dochar a rá. Cuireadh síneadh le brí an fhocail. Sin a bhfuil ann. Athrú brí le himeacht ama.

Cad fútsa? An mbeadh ceann agat?

One of the major stabilising forces on "Standard English" was the spread of literacy and universal education. This has been continually added to by the audio visual and electronic media such as this wonderful Internet, an tIdirlíon.

There are programmes such as "East Enders", "Coronation Street" "Australian soaps" (sobaldrámaí!), and American Crime Drama, which are presented in dialect but the "standard" is very obviously rock-solid. I have me doubts about the spelling however considering the prevalence of textese.

In Irish the dialects reign supreme in speech while, as Panu has conceded, in print the standard is the norm.

The desire to reproduce dialect however sometimes gives rise to ridiculous pronunciation.

I'm no expert on the pronunciation of Gaelainn na Rinne but I've heard "Na Connaries" often enough to recognise that instead of the eee sound in other dialects an Rinn uses the eye sound with delightful srónaíl on broad consonants.

Unfortunately some ersatz dialect speakers go too far and in addition to "le linn" and "tinn" and "An Rinn" féin they count "a hocht, a ni (nigh), a deich." I am sure that would be better pronounced with something closer to an "ae" sound. Never mind they mean well and are doing their best. At least they know the pronunciation exists and they won't make the same mistakes too often without people correcting them. After all, its a living language and we love them for making the effort.

It's a fantastic asset for all Irish-speakers to be able to switch to TG4 or RnaG. Tonight I watched Máirtín Tom Sheáinín interview Meta Uí Mháille from Ros Muc on "Comhrá." I mean! Where would you get it!

What I am trying to say is that there is a huge structure of supports for modern written Irish outside the illiterate oral tradition of the Gaeltacht in modern Ireland. Nor is it true to say that only learners from the Galltacht and iar-Ghaeltacht use An Caighdeán Oifigiúil.

Look at the list of those who have obtained Séala Creidiúnaithe Fhoras na Gaeilge and see how many of them live in An Ghaeltacht Oifigiúil. www.gaeilge.ie There are jobs going nowadays for people with good Irish and where there's a job there are people to take them. At home and abroad. Sa bhaile is i gcéin. Read www.acmhainn.ie and see how well translators are advised to avoid calques. (Is that the first time I've ever written that word?)

Cuireadh ceist ar sheanfhear i Maigh Eo uair, "Cén Ghaeilge ab fhearr?" "An Ghaeilge a íocanns" was his reply.

So be it. What's the Irish for "Get over it?"

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"Cén Ghaeilge ab fhearr?" "An Ghaeilge a íocanns"

Iontach! Bain sin scairt gáire asam.

Maidir le clann, táim (beagnach) ar aon fhocal leat. Tá an scéal sin thart, cuid mhór.

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I have to say, I find the idea that the incredibly poor Irish, heavily polluted by English, which has become the norm among learners must inevitably form the basis for Irish in the future deeply depressing and disheartening.

The form of Irish used by many learners is not simply a "more modern" or "less traditional" form of the language that that used in the Gaedhealtachtaí.
It is the speech of people who think in English.
The speech of native speakers is that of people who actually think in Irish as their ancestors have done for centuries if not millennia before them.

We should also consider the effect this has on native speakers.

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With regards to contemporary developments in Ulster Irish, Art Hughes associates the increased use of the substantive verb at the expense of the copula and a variety of other syntactical features, such as the loss of the vocative form (e.g. Art, insteadf of a Airt) with reduced use of Irish by bilingual speakers. He also quotes a number of particularly arresting examples of direct English infiltration of Irish:

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bhí infection ar mo khidneys ('my kidneys had an infection')

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cé d'organaisáil an weekend seo? ('who organized this weekend?')

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Ar enjoyáil tú do holidays? ('Did you enjoy your holidays?'

From Hughes, A. 1994. 'Gaeilge Uladh', in McCone, K. et al (eds), Stair na Gaeilge. (p. 659-60)

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Stenson points to the continued productivity of -áil tacked on to English verbvs: Faintáil sí ('She fainted'); Emigratáil uilig siad ('They all emigrated'). She further notes the rarer, and apparently more recent, occurence of wholly English verbal morphology: Decided Aer Lingus go... ('Aer Lingus decided that...'); Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú feeling? ('How are you feeling?'). Stenson also gives some arresting examples of code-mixing:

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('I have to make the bank in Athboy before 3:00 because if I don't, ní bheidh airgead ar bith agam le haghaidh an deireadh seactaine.')

As cited in Mac Mathúna, L., 'Linguistic Change and Standardization', Cois Life, Dublin, 2008. p. 85-86

Danny,

Are you writing a phd.?

I feel I must put in my spake here.
While attending a function in Cararoe in the heart of Conemara recently I was asked through Irish by a local charachter and he a bit under the weather if I would like a pint or a brandy (fair duce to the man) and I answered as I thought in the best Irish I could muster that I was fine and that"caithfidh mé tiomáint abhaile ar ball". He looked at me in total bewilderment,looked at the man that I was talking to and asked him through Irish, what did he say?, and my friend said to him simply "oh, tá sé ag driváil".So off he went....Ní dhéan sé mórán cuidiú ar mo chuid féinmhuinín ag labhairt trid Gaeilge... FRC.

Two points:
1) He may have had difficulty with your accent (especially if he was under the influence)
2) "Tiomáint" has a very wide meaning (so does driving - one can drive cattle). "Ag tiomáint liom" just means walking strongly, for example.

---

tiomáint [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal baininscneach]
treorú nó bagairt chun cinn (caoirigh a thiomáint); stiúradh, giollacht (capall, gluaisteán, a thiomáint); bualadh (liathróid, tairne, a thiomáint); sá, brú (bád a thiomáint chun an uisce; ná bí ag tiomáint na bhfear mar sin; tiomáin leat!); ruaille buaille, ruathar (tiomáint is dul trí chéile); éileamh, ráchairt (bhí tiomáint ar mhuca ann).

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Are you writing a phd.?

No. Not yet. :D

Like you, I'm a nerd. But my particular interest is more on sociolinguistics, language shift, and 'the politics of language in Ireland' over the centuries.

Quite.

But this sight is called Daltaí na Gaeilge.

Your interest, whilst wholly legimate, seems to outweigh any particular interest in learning Irish.

I could be wrong but would your interests not be better served on Politics.ie?

It is none of my business as I do not own this site.

Your interest frankly inform me that you are a student or a political activist.

Obviously I could be wrong.

Regarding fluency:reading, writing, speaking some Irish speakers are fluent in speaking but not so good at writing the language as could be said about many native speakers, others can read Irish but not speak it that well, others understand Irish without being able to read it, others still write Irish well and dont speak it well often this is the case with learners.

Antaine wrote "At this point? The quantity, hands down. Irish needs speakers in numbers great enough to marry each other, raise their kids in the language, and settle near other Irish speaking families so as to conduct business and form Irish-speaking social networks. Without all that, Irish goes the way of Klingon or Esperanto...a hobby language for a few odd ducks who have to enter artificial situations (like immersion programs and classes) in order to have anyone to talk to..."
I totally agree with that.We need Irish speakers to have Irish speaking families regardless of whether they speak Conamara Irish or Gaeilge Béal Féirste heavily influenced in speech by English. There are literally hundreds of Irish speaking families in Belfast between North and West who are I think looked down upon in certain quarters by language purists.

GRMC faoi an comhairle sin a hAonghus, is féidir go bhfuil sin an cás.Ach go deimhin tá deacreacht agamsa lé mo blas.
Caithfidh mé dhul amach í bfhad níos mó. T

I think its ''tumall'' instead of tiomáint in Connemara.