Dear friend,
I am learning Irish and bought the Foclóir póca. I like the idea behind a lárchanúint even if I think it is harldy ever used in Ireland at present: please correct me if I am wrong.
I would like to ask you how verb endings are pronounced according to the lárchanúint system, for ex. future, conditional and impersonal -f-, the -dh of various forms etc.
Is there any book discussing the issue?
Hoping you can help me, I thank you with all my heart.
Is mise, le meas,
David

quote:

I like the idea behind a lárchanúint even if I think it is harldy ever used in Ireland at present: please correct me if I am wrong.

To me, the idea behind the lárchanúint is to substitute an artificial dialect for natural dialects (that are in danger, on top of that)... Making the Gaeltacht speakers feel their dialect isn't good enough to be used in official stuff or in books... A good way to make Gaeltacht Irish die a bit more quickly.

By the way, there's no official pronunciation of Irish. The one you find in the Foclóir Póca is just an attempt (used by very few people, if any), and I don't think you'd find such a "standardised" pronunciation of the verbal forms, except those you'd find in that dictionary. I don't remember having seen such, anyway.

An bealach is fearr ar fad le cos i bpoll a chur le canúint ar bith is ea scríobh faoi i dteanga an chos ar bolg. Níl a shárú le fáil.

Dáibhí,

Simply prounce as written and you wouldnt go far wrong.

quote:

Simply prounce as written

There are many ways to "pronounce as written" in Irish :-D

Clearly, I would disagree.

If you can find a copy, "Lárchanúint do Ghaeilge" (1986) by Dónall P. Ó Baoill puts forth suggested pronunciations for "Standard Irish". (The book is in Irish by the way.)

For example:
'F' > /f/ nó /f'/ Sa Bhriathar Saor Molfar, etc.

'F'>/h/ after consonants 'l,m,n,ng,r & th' Caithfidh, etc.

'F'> ar ceal after 'b/bh,c/ch,d, f, g,mh,p,s&t'
'b, bh/mh,d & g > 'p,f,t & c scuabfaidh /skuapa/; scríobhfaidh /s'k'r'ifa/ etc.

I am not big on the Caighdeán/Lárchanúint but thought I might pass this along to those interested.

quote:

the idea behind the lárchanúint is ... A good way to make Gaeltacht Irish die a bit more quickly.

So that's what's going on. And all along I though that people involved in promoting the language were interested in it. But, tis strangling the Gaeltacht is what they are about!

Thanks Lughaidh for that brilliant insight

When a language is in danger and when at school the few native speaking children are taught to write and speak in a "standard dialect" instead of being taught the way to write their own dialect and of being encouraged to use it, what's the result? They get bored by Irish and may feel shame because they don't speak the "correct" Irish... then they may choose not to speak Irish to their own children, etc. It happens in the Gaeltacht, I know it. So... is it a brilliant idea?

Here are the verbal pronunciations from the Lárchanúint. I have included a couple dialectical notes which are from the book. Hopefully others can give a whole paradigm for each dialect, or just note the differences from this paradigm, so they'll have that information available to them instead of the Lárchanúint.


-bf- / -bth- : /p/ (C, F, VA)
-bhf- / -mhf- : /f/ (C, F)
-df- / -dt- : /t/ (C, F, VA)
-dh : /j/ (F -eoidh, -óidh)
-dh : /x/ (C, H, I) [Note: Other dialects have /u/ or /u:/]
-dh : /v/ or /w/ (P autonomous) [Note: Other dialects have /u/ or /u:/ or /x/ or /g/]
-dh : /i:/ (F in the ending -f(a)idh, see next also)
-dh : Silent (1: F -f(a)idh, -eoidh, -óidh before a personal pronoun ; 2: At the end of a VN)
-f- : /f/ (C & F autonomous)
-f- : /h/ (C & F when it is clustered with l, m, n, ng, r, and th between two vowels)
-f- : Silent (C & F when clustered with other consonants, see also separate clusters)
-gf- / -gth- : /k/ (C, F, VA)
-gh : Silent (Multi-syllable verb before a personal pronoun)
-ngt : /nt/ (VN)
-rth- : r is broad in these clusters (VA)

Note: The silent -dh / -gh mentioned above, before a personal pronoun, are pronounced /ə/. So /i:/ goes to /ə/ before personal pronouns.

You can see this thread for the vowels. The other consonants are pretty straightforward.
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/44799.html?1253534251


Abbreviations:

C = Conditional
F = Future
H = Habitual Past
I = Imperative
P = Past
VA = Verbal Adjective
VN = Verbal Noun

Wow, You are lucky David,...that's more help than I got when I asked how to pronounce the Irish curse...."Marbhfháisc ort!"

(:)

A Jeannette, as I recall at least two posters replied constructively to that request. Unfortunately, I can't find the post to check. When did you originally post it?

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/48133.html?1257790420

/mɑrə'vɑ:ʃkʹ ort/

You remarked that you couldn't read the IPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipa

This pronunciation is roughly:

mah-ruh-VAHSH-kort

Dear friends, i thank you with all my heart for your help and all the interesting debate!
Is -dh (C, H, I) supposed to turn to /-t/ when preceding a slender s-, as it happens, as far as I understand from Mícheál Ó Siadháil's "Learning Irish", in the Connacht dialect?
Go raibh maith agaibh!!!!!

quote:

Is -dh (C, H, I) supposed to turn to /-t/ when preceding a slender s-, as it happens, as far as I understand from Mícheál Ó Siadháil's "Learning Irish", in the Connacht dialect?

I can check that, but I don't recall anywhere where there is an exception to /x/. If you don't hear from me tomorrow, then it is just /x/.

Yes, in Cois Fhairrge at least, broad -dh at the end of a verbal form is pronounced like a slender t when followed by a pronoun subject that begins with slender s (ie. sé, sí, sibh, siad...)?

That's true in Ulster too, and I guess in Mayo too. I dunno if it's true in whole Connemara though (and i'm too lazy to search now :-) )

A Dhomhnaíllin,
You can find the post by going to SEARCH and entering General Discussion Irish and English, the sender name, or date,such as last 90 days or so, or subject.



A Sheáwn, (sorry, I MAY not have this vocative for your name spelled correctly), GRMA.

...pronouncing "Marbhfháisc"
So I was incorrect in my initial posting of how I thought the word was pronounced. V sound instead of W sound..although maybe a choice of Munster pronunciation being the V sound?

I am new to IPA, so thanks for that also.

Just for general comment, I used, among others, Nancy Stenson's books, Basic Irish and Intermediate Irish...
I find she is very helpful in pronunciation explanations.

Jeannette

I don't agree that the Lárchanúint pronunciation is in some way a means of thwarting native speaker Irish but rather an attempt to create a standard spoken form as exists in other languages. Anyway, unless native Irish speakers in the various Gaeltacht areas got together and created such a language and actually used it among themselves, the idea of a creating an artificial spoken standard is a non-starter. My advice to anyone is to stick with one of the dialects and study one of the monographs available: Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne by Diarmuid Ó Sé, Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge by de Bhaldraithe and Gaedhealg Theilinn by Wagner for example.

Ailín

Ná dearúd "The Irish of Erris" le hÉamonn Mac an Fhailighe agus "The Irish of Achill" le G. Stockman. Sin iad na canúintí is áille, is binne, is cruinne, is deise, is éifeachtaí, is fóirsteanaí, is g.... [ar aghaidh leat tríd an aibitír] dá bhfuil ann.

quote:

So I was incorrect in my initial posting of how I thought the word was pronounced. V sound instead of W sound..although maybe a choice of Munster pronunciation being the V sound?

BH would be mostly /v/ in the south, and /w/ for broad, and /v/ for slender in other areas. If depends a lot on what's around, though, from my experience. I have heard also /u:/ in some contexts, and also /f/. I believe the other common pronunciation would have a /w/ in place of /v/.

quote:

I don't agree that the Lárchanúint pronunciation is in some way a means of thwarting native speaker Irish but rather an attempt to create a standard spoken form as exists in other languages.

I think its best use is as a crutch for complete beginners and those without a live teacher. I do agree that once someone is out of the gate, so to speak, they should refine their pronunciation to live speakers as best they can. I have found listening to a variety of people, from a variety of areas, and reading the actual text, that the Lárchanúint question is blown out of purportion. The pronunciation isn't that far off, but it is also true that it doesn't fit exactly with any given dialect. I take a sort of laissez-faire attitude about it. I have found the system helpful because of its very simplification. It helped me to start small, and branch out. Originally looking at pronunciation schemes in Learning Irish, I was daunted by the sheer number of exceptions to so-called pronunciation rules. But once I got a foundation, the exceptions seemed to come more naturally and make more sense because I was better grounded to comprehend mid-word, mid-sentence, a shift in vowel or similar changes. Views differ, but this is mine.