Chuir TimD ceist:

quote:

I am wondering if "piteog" derives etymologically from the word next door to it in the dictionary, "pit", a term referring to the female anatomy? It think -eog is just a generic ending.

Yes. The original meaning was an effeminate man. It is a fairly nasty term.

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/focloiri/daoine/lorg.php?tairg=Lorg&facal=piteo g&seorsa=Gaidhlig

(Message edited by aonghus on November 04, 2009)

beidh mé cinnte ag usáideann an focal sin.

Ní ceart duit. Focal gránna is ea é.

Leagan eile, piteachán. Same meaning. Just as nasty.

The word piteog contains a firm note of disapproval. It is only "nasty" if you view that disapproval as itself nasty and not, as would once have been thought, an admirable defence of social norms.

In general, I prefer words that don't contain an agenda. Piteog contains an agenda of disapproval. Aerach contains an agenda of approval. Both words are propaganda. I don't like the corresponding words in English, because they contain the point of view built into the word. I would prefer "man who likes men". No sense of approval or disapproval. Fear gur maith leis na fir. If we managed to start this off, you could say "fear gur maith liom na fir is ea mé" - or would you need to put the relative clause later?

More like the word is a verbal weapon. Even if you disapprove with someone's behavior, do you think nasty words change their hearts? Most people utter words like this out of anger. It seems best to note this one, and not use incorrectly. What I mean is, sometimes we look up a word and don't know the baggage that comes with it. I have described someone as effeminate without any nastiness, just observation. I also see that one can use baineanda as an adjective. Does this carry the same load as piteog et al.?

"Man who likes men" can still be seen as a pseudo-positive synonym to a f*gg*t. As long as people aren't fine with the idea behind the word or phrase, there's little chance of finding a doubtlessly positive term.

I'm so happy and, uh, joyful to be a man who exclusively prefers women as sexual partners.

Why not coin a new term with the suffix "-char" ("loving").
"Samhail-char" "same-loving"???

Useful for both male and female homosexuals.

(Message edited by James_Murphy on November 04, 2009)

How about "pink man"? Fear bándearg?

Do you mean a closet communist?

I suspect this problem will always be with us. Even if we coin a neutral term, in the cut & thrust of debate, it will get a value assigned to it.

Consider the nomadic community in Ireland.

Once they were called Tinkers or Knackers - both description of word that they did. Both know offensive terms.

For a while, they were called Itinerants - a description of their life style. (They are still usually referred to as "lucht siúl" in Irish). Then, by dint of being used to offend, this became offensive.

Currently they are known as Travellers or Pavee (from a Cant word they use for themselves). Both these terms are slowly curdling.

A person whose credentials in this field I respect once told me that one term in use in the Donegal Gaeltacht for a homosexual man was a "cigire tóna". Someone else in the company stated that in the Scottish Gaeltacht the term was "giolla tóna".

Anyone heard anything similar?

I approve of homosexuality. That is the single most idiotic thing I have ever typed. It is the equivalent of "I approve of trees" or "I approve of the sky". Anyway, "aerach" will do for me.

I actually don't think there is any approval associated with the word "gay". One person's "carefree" is another's "irresponsible". The main thing is that the word itself is acceptable. I, for one, would be very uncomfortable if there were a group of amateur international scholars discussing what Irish people should be called. We get to choose. So do gay people.

Timd, I can't work out whether your last post is in jest. If so, you need to hone your comedic technique. If not, you're very funny.

Joe, obviously that's just a direct translation of the "arse inspector" or "bottom inspector"; common derogatory terms in English - "The Bottom Inspectors" was even a comic strip in Viz. All we need now are translations for "shirt lifter", "uphill gardener" and "turd burglar" and we'll be sorted.

A Aonghuis, my nephews and nieces in Kerry were playing a game which involved a shootout in the garden. I asked them were they playing Cowboys and Indians. They replied that they were playing Guards and Knackers. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry!

An dá rud! An rud a chíonn an leanbh, níonn an leanbh.

Come to think of it the meaning of "gay" is changing in English once again. I've noticed young people (my 14 year old nephew included) using it with the general meaning of "bad", "crap" or "pathetic" e.g. "That film was gay" (meaning it was no good, nothing more is implied).


In the near future we could see the bizarre, topsy-turvy situation where "gay" is a word with entirely negative connotations and "queer" is proudly used by homosexuals to describe themselves


(I wonder if "aerach" will go the same way. Probably considering the overwhelming influence English (unfortunately) has on Irish.)

"shirt lifter", "uphill gardener" and "turd burglar"

Tógálaí Léine
Garraíodóir le fána
Cac ghadaí

I am afraid the meaning of "t*rd burglar" is even worse than Aonghus had it. It means "gadaí caca".

Has anyone heard Irish native speakers use "aerach" in the meaning of "lame, pathetic"? Do bhí an scannán seo aerach. ??

Wicked is another word with opposite meanings, and I think diail in Irish has the same double meaning.

Tá an ceart agat faoi diail.

Ach níor chuala mé riamh aerach in úsáid mar droch rud. Ní dóigh liom go bhfeidhmeoidh sé. Ach ní déagóir mé!

Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that diail is used for emphasis/degree, and the tone/context will show whether positive or negative is meant.

Don't forget sick.

For example:

Did you enjoy the ride?

Are you kidding, it was totally sick!

That one still gets me, how did sick ever come to mean cool/great.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on November 05, 2009)

Do you like that bit in the film Brubaker, where they are going to have a election among the prisoners, and someone says "that's a hell of an idea!" Meaning what a stupid idea! And when queried on his comment by the governor, he repeated it with upbeat intonation: "that's a hell of an idea!" meaning, that's fabulous!

But to be politically correct, you should have asked if they were playing "Cowboys and Native Americans". Indians is considered a perjorative now.

Quote: But to be politically correct, you should have asked if they were playing "Cowboys and Native Americans". Indians is considered a perjorative now.

Or you can refuse to play the whole PC game and just call everything by the traditional names.

James Murphy

"Why not coin a new term with the suffix "-char" ("loving"). "Samhail-char" "same-loving"???

Useful for both male and female homosexuals."

I kind of like that line of thought. There was an interesting interview about the recent gay pride march on Washington DC.

The woman being interviewed got upset with the reporter because he called her "gay." Now the reporter said, "What are you hoping to get out of this Gay Pride March for the homosexual community." Phrases that have been established by tradition since the earliest marches.

What the woman said caught my attention because I think it hits the heart of this topic:

"That's the problem with you people (meaning heterosexuals) is that you just don't get it. You are separating us with labels. You never say, 'Oh look at those heterosexuals over there. Or, they are African-American heteros.' But you do with homosexuals as if we were a different species or something. We are still human beings, we just have different sexual preferences. No different than two heteros with different sexual preferences like the color of one's hair. The problem is you label us, and you can't even do it correctly. Get it straight, lesbians are not gays. We are both homosexuals, but men are gays and women are lesbians. I am not a gay person, I am a lesbian. If you can't get it right, don't open your mouth."

Now I don't know if this trend is common in all countries, but the in US there is growing separation between gays and lesbians.

And if it hasn't officially happened yet, there is going to be a need for a term that can lump them into one category, while giving them their separate recognition.

Something like the "same-loving" idea could be a step in the right direction. What's different about "same-loving" vs. "homosexual?" Well, nothing really. However, it is a more personal term than homosexual, which means that we have given them a classification that humifies them a little more, while keeping our love for simplistic labels.

I've seen "Same sex attraction" used to cover the whole spectrum. (It also takes account of the fact that some people struggle with the attraction, for whatever reason).

But words are never neutral - because people aren't. Especially on something as core to humans as sexuality.

Or language, to get back on topic!

But you can also find yourself in the situation where lesbians insist on being called "gay women". If people insist on being offended, then you cannot really know for sure what a person you don't know will choose to find offensive. I knew a lesbian at university who hated the sound of the word lesbian and she preferred "gay woman". In the old days, you didn't need too many terms, as the whole subject was not for polite discussion.

Céard is brí le "nuachar"?

%20Aerach,%20Déghnéasach%20agus%20Trasinscneach&lang=2

Tá an gnó seo casta go leor!

Although Aonghus claims words like "piteog", which is glossed as "effeminate" in the dictionary, are "nasty", the view expressed is deeply embedded in Christian cultures because it comes directly from the Bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

The effeminate cannot go to heaven, it states.

I was interested to see what word was used in Irish translations of the Bible. Piteoga is not used. Maybe as Aonghus says the word piteog is used purely in order to revile.

I looked in Riobeárd Ó Catháin's 1858 translation of the New Testament into Clare Irish and got this:

"ná fuil a fhios aguibh ná seilbheoigh luchd déanta na héagcóra ríoghachd Dé? Ná mealltar sibh: ní bhfaighid luchd sdríopachais, ná luchd íodhal-adhruighthe, ná luchd adhaltrannais, ná luchd macnais, ná na daoine atá cionntach do neamhghlaine mhí-nádúrtha, ná bitheamhnaigh, ná daoine sainnteamhla, ná luchd meisge, ná luchd drochchainnte, ná luchd fóirneirt, oighreachd ríoghachda Dé"

Here "effeminate" is lucht macnais.

Looking in Dinneen's dictionary, one could get confused, as macnas has the first-listed menaing of "kindness, fondness" - so "kind people" don't get to go to heaven? Then it has "sensuality, lasciviousness". Under macnasach, meanings include "lusty" and "romping", "saucy", "effeminate". Under macnasacht, there is "lustiness" and "sauciness". In Foclóir Póca, the term "frolicking" is given under macnas. Some of these meanings get close to the meaning of 1Co6:9-10, but the translation doesn't seem to be too explicit.

quote:

Cad is brí le nuachar?

Spouse.

quote:

1 Corinthians 6:9,10 ...

Greek malakos, Latin molles.

soft > gentle, feminine, effeminate > morally weak

Some say it refers to catamites. Others say homosexuals:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm

"Lucht macnais" may be one of those renderings like Membrum Virile. Kind of says something without saying it.

If it is purely a slang thing, you might not find anything even mentioned in the dictionary with the usage of the word you are encountering it with.

Usually you only find meanings that are accepted for a fairly long period of time in a dictionary. Unless you are looking at a "slang" dictoinary, or a very contemporary dictionary that just happened to have recorded it.