This something i'm planning in tralee IT.
Caniúnt Thrá Lí-
zú(zoo) changes to [clós ainmhithe]
péint(paint) changes to [uisce dath]
veidhlín(violin) changes to [bheidhlín] 'bh' sound of 'v'
eirgeanamaíocht(ergonomics) changes to [corpeolaíocht]
thats it for now folks. more to come later. may a happy death come to bearlachás.

For corpeolaiocht, shouldn't the "rp" be surrounded by either broad or slender vowels, or is this an exception to the rule?

Níl na leaganacha sinn cruinn, a Sheamáis.

Ní hionann clós agus zú - bheadh Gairdín na nAinmhithe níos fearr, sin a bhíodh in úsáid i mBaile Atha Cliath fadó, tá corr fógra fágtha


Tá péinteáil sa teanga le fada:
http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=%20pinnt%C3%A9l&f indlet=+&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1

Ní b séimhithe atá i gceist le v. Fuaim eile atá i gceist. Tugann séimhiú ar chéad litir le tuiscint go bhfuil athrú de bharr gramadaí ag tarlú, rud nach bhfuil.


Maidir le corpeolaíocht - sin physical education. Obair seachas corp is brí le "ergo"

Féach http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ergonomics

Más mian leat an leagan traslitrithe a sheachaint, b'fhearr, mar shampla, "innealtóireacht gnéithe daonna" nó rud éigin mar sin.

---

An tuiscint a bheadh agamsa ar Bhéarlachas na comhréir agus gnás an Bhéarla ar bhrú anuas ar an nGaeilge.

David,

this is a compound word, and that seems to permit exceptions. Compare:

http://www.focal.ie/AdvSearch.aspx?wording=corp&extent=start&length=single&lang= 2&posL2=0&posLX=0&domain=0&collection=0

Along similar lines, I hate it when there are perfectly good Irish words but people choose to use the more english like ones, for example:

ospidéal - otharlann
fón - guthán
carr - gluaisteán

Tuigim anois, go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis.

That last one is a neologism, no older than the start of teh 20th century.

Whereas the word carr is ancient.

As for ospidéal, DIL states that it is a late romance loanword, used in the book "Flight of the Earls" for example..

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&searchtext=hospital&findlet= +&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1


How far back is your drive going to go?

Just because a word in Irish looks similar to a word in English proves - nothing!

Interesting Aonghus, I always thought the usage of the above words were people just being lazy! Thanks

''carr - gluaisteán''

''Carr'' is not Béarlachas.

quote:

Ní hionann clós agus zú - bheadh Gairdín na nAinmhithe níos fearr, sin a bhíodh in úsáid i mBaile Atha Cliath fadó, tá corr fógra fágtha

Búúúúúúú! Síos leis an nGearmánachas! Búúúúúú!

listen i was only suggesting on how we might get rid of bearlachás. but if you want to be sour about it, you are sending your grievances to the wrong person.
Slán a chara,
A Sheamás.

Seamus I don't think anyone is sending you grievances, you are spot on with your idea. we are all your friends, and we are all coming from the same point of view at the end of the day.

I guess you need to compile a list of common Béarlachas terms, find the best possible replacements, and then get the message out.

easier said than done sadly.

Oh! I don't know. I think we should all try to get out more often for a pint!

inniu Dé Luain.. nothing like an early start joe ;)

"Car" would bring you full circle. It is Celtic in origin!

"Aerach" mentioned in another thread is an excellent example of Béarlachas.
It's abundantly clear how it entered the language. No more effort went into it than someone looking up "Gay" in his Collins Gem, finding "Aerach" and saying "feck it, that'll do".

Those responsible for introducing words for new concepts into Irish vocabulary, coming up with Irish translations and transliterations of foreign terms over the past few decades have, unfortunately, done an abysmal job in most cases (with some notable exceptions).
Going through a list of Gaelicised forms of country names for example is a painful experience e.g. "An Téalainn", "An Araib Shádach".

P.S. As Aonghus says "péint" has some history in the language but there are other words with the same meaning - "Gaiste", "Deann" also, "Ciochtaim" = "I paint", "Lídhealbhaim" = "I paint"(an image) etc.

James, you raise the question of what a more natural word for a homosexual is in Irish than "aerach". The nearest I can come up with is piteog. It's a negative word, but then traditional views on the subject would not have permitted a positive word. Anyhow, it may be the real native word. Any others?

Where is An Téalainn?

I don't know why ''ospidéal'' was mentioned on this thread, it is not Béarlachas and its used in Munster and Conamara and ''otharlann'' in Donegal. There is ''easpaicil'' too.

Oh, I know now that An Téalainn is Thailand! It seems totally wrong - it sound like Teilinn in Donegal. For a start, "land" is a word - and it seems wrong to build "lann" into the name of every word with "land" in in English. Ireland - Éirelann?

The lack of positive native terms is precisely why gay has been borrowed directly into a number of non-English languages. But given the current trend toward "reclaiming" words, perhaps we'll see a flourishing of earthier alternatives. In a way, it's a shame a more transparent term like homophile never caught on, since then we might've seen some more sensible calques. (FWIW, hoyw "gay" has been subjected to the same extension in Welsh.)

quote:

Oh, I know now that An Téalainn is Thailand! It seems totally wrong - it sound like Teilinn in Donegal. For a start, "land" is a word - and it seems wrong to build "lann" into the name of every word with "land" in in English. Ireland - Éirelann?

I think "-lainn" is fine when if forms part of the area's native name e.g. Íoslainn, Ollainn - there's even some justification in the case of countries known to Irish people for centuries through the medium of Germanic languages e.g. Fionlainn, Polainn - but I see no justification whatsoever for it's use in Téalainn.
Even worse is the transliteration of Thai. Why /te:/ and not /tai/??
Two possibilities come to mind:
(a) Representing the diphthong /ai/ would have necessitated the use of one of those ghastly, space-filling lenited consonants!!! So they simply didn't bother doing it correctly.
(b) When the new name for Siam first started appearing in newspapers and textbooks perhaps people mistakenly took to pronouncing it T(h)ay-land /te:land/ so the masterminds charged with coming up with a suitable Irish form of this state's name simply took this mispronounced mess straight from English!

Something along the lines of "Críoch/Tír na dTaidhe" would have been infinitely better.
("Thai" or "Tai" is the name of the dominant ethnic group in Thailand and not taken from the Thai word for "free" as is often believed).

quote:

The lack of positive native terms is precisely why gay has been borrowed directly into a number of non-English languages.

It would have been better to introduce something like "Gae"/"Fear gae" than try to mirror the extension in meaning of an English word in an Irish word.

quote:

But given the current trend toward "reclaiming" words, perhaps we'll see a flourishing of earthier alternatives

Perhaps they could just "reclaim" Piteog and be done with it? They've made "Queer" their own in the past few years.

quote:

Oh, I know now that An Téalainn is Thailand!

An raibh tu ag smaoineamh ar Teileann (Teelin as Bearla)?

Feach ag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teelin

nó http://www.donegallibrary.ie/memory/towns/teelin.htm

Bhí mé ag Teileann agus tá an ait sin go hiontach!

(Message edited by bodhrán on November 02, 2009)

Bhí mé i dTeileann fosta ach tá sé iontach lag mar Ghaeltacht.

Ach is áit an deas é, agus ceol traidisiúnta ar siúl sa teach tábhairne i rith na hoíche agus tá sé go maith don iascaireacht.

I am wondering if "piteog" derives etymologically from the word next door to it in the dictionary, "pit", a term referring to the female anatomy? It think -eog is just a generic ending.

Anything that would make it easier to learn -- such as having lots of English loanwords -- might well be the saving of Irish. Don't let us make it harder for learners and everyday speakers alike. Listen to the native speakers: "Amach liom 'ig an aerfort agus bhí an pléan díreach ag leandáil. Isteach liom sa bhear le mo shútcéas áit ar mhíteáil muid go léir le chéile. srl Foghraíocht an Bhéarla atá ag "meet" agus "suitcase."

Agus é sin ráite is trua liom nach leanaimid an Fhraincís seachas an Béarla agus focail nua á gcumadh againn: b'fhearr liom "teileachóip" ná "faics".

Míle fearr focla Béarla agus cora cainte agus comhréir Ghaeilge a dh'úsáid, ná focla úra Gaeilge a dh'úsáid agus achan abairt a dh'aistriú ón Bhéarla focal ar fhocal, rud a ghníthear go minic sa lá atá inniu ann. Is fusa comhréir an Bhéarla a chur i bhfolach faoi fhocla "Ceilteacha"... ach is é struchtúr na teangtha an rud is tábhachtaí, is cuma fá ghné na bhfocal.
Tá 2/3 do dh'fhocla an Bhéarla a thánaic ón Fhraincis nó ón Laidin, agus ina dhiaidh sin, ní Fraincis ná Laidin ná teangaidh Rómánsach atá sa Bhéarla. Siocair go bhfuil struchtúr teangtha Gearmánaí aige (ie. Germanic, ní German atá i gceist agam).

I don't see a thing wrong with the use of "aerach". Irish speaking gay people have adopted it readily and it works fine in the same contexts as the word "gay" would be used in English. "Queer" may have been reclaimed to some extent but reclaimed words aren't reclaimed for everyone.

The current quasi-official term for the far from homogenous group whose rights are often considered together is "LGBT" - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered. That would appear to be "LADT" for those who are bent (on avoiding Béarlachas).

Quote: I don't see a thing wrong with the use of "aerach". Irish speaking gay people have adopted it readily and it works fine in the same contexts as the word "gay" would be used in English. "Queer" may have been reclaimed to some extent but reclaimed words aren't reclaimed for everyone.


Who are these "Irish speaking gay people"? Residents of the Gaeltacht speaking traditional Irish, or learners in Dublin speaking poorly mastered Irish? It does matter which. For a start, Irish is becoming a language whose linguistic trends are set by learners.

Well, I was with two gay friends at the Oireachtas at the weekend. One is fluent but not originally from the Gaeltacht although he has spent a lot of time there. Through him, I met and spoke with three gay people who are from, live and work in the Gaeltacht (actually one may be working outside the Gaeltacht at the moment). They are all well known in Irish language media and writing (I am pretty sure the fact that they are gay is well known but I won't name them here). The term was used freely. It's in use and well accepted - you might as well deal with it.

It hardly comes as a surprise to you that there a number of gay native speakers contributing hugely to arts and media in Irish? I presume that there are plenty of gay native speakers just getting on with life too!

Everybody says 'aerach' for gay, it doesnt matter if you are from Toraigh or Blackrock.

In many other countries people just say 'gay' but in Ireland unlike Scotland, these things are avoided, hence, rphost, rìomhaire, aerach.

PS, it correct to say duine aerach, aerach by itself is a little offensive.

An chilleasrach, it remains the case that Irish is a language whose linguistic trends are set by learners. The Gaeltacht natives - were they the ones who started off the word aerach? It would be difficult to ascertain such a thing, but it is a simple thing to see that most of the linguistic trends are set by learners. It would be interesting to know what the AVERAGE native speaker in the Gaeltacht said for "homosexual", not ones working in the media whose knowledge of standard Irish terms is likely to be more total. I stayed in the Gaeltacht with native speakers - they had no idea what the Irish word for "vet" was, as they said "vet". But I bet the people working in the media do know it is dochtúir bheithíoch. Actually, the Irish spoken by the AVERAGE native speaker in the GAeltacht is peppered with English words. Many of those words in the dictionary were created in Dublin and mainly used outside of the Gaeltacht and by people working in the media or the Údarás etc. I was browing through An Dálach the other day and saw numerous fake Irish words, including one for "syncretistic" that looks like an obvious candidate for having been made up in Dublin. I wonder how many farmers in the Gaeltacht have used the word - the answer is probably ZERO. It may be that in rural communities subjects like homosexuality are rarely discussed.

I am neither pro- nor anti- use of the word aerach in Irish (although I definitely deprecate the use of Orwellian Newspeak in English - you will know what that means if you have read 1984). I simply pointed out that the word was probably invented in Dublin by learners. For me, it will be a shame when the natural Irish of the Gaeltacht has gone, and the "vibrant urban Irish" of the Galltacht will not be a replacement for that in my eyes. The difference can be seen in a TV series called "No Béarla". Manchán speaks fluent, but badly accented and intonated, "urban Irish". When he speaks to the native speaker in Rath Cairn, the difference was shocking. The real native speaker sounded totally different speaking Irish - the accent, the intonation, was all different. And I could not equate the two.

Quote: PS, it correct to say duine aerach, aerach by itself is a little offensive.

Ní fhéadaim coimeád suas leis na rialta seo!

The Irish for vet btw is tréidlia, a word which I am quite sure goes back many many hundreds of years.

I would like to point out to learners that An Dàlach refered to above was Niall Ó Dónaill, editor of the main proscriptive Irish > English dictionary.

Niall was a native speaker from Loch an Iúir, Donegal.

He was also the compiler of Seanchas na Féinne, one of the more important collections in Irish literature.

People would do well to remember things kinds of things when reading these kinds of forums.

Timd, you may be right about how new words and phrases are being adopted synthetically rather than naturally. Obviously, the people who run focal.ie etc. are academics - I have no idea where they come from. Some would say that there is not sufficient breadth of activity in the limited Gaeltacht regions to allow for a natural coinage of new terms and that it has to be done, to some extent, through more formal structures and popularised through Irish language media. However, I couldn't agree with you more about the wellspring of the language continuing to be the Gaeltacht and I strongly disagree with those who believe that the future is exclusively urban.

I am just saying that the word "aerach" is widely used, has gained traction amongst the gay community and is broadly acceptable.

Perhaps, until Donal Óg came out, the rural communities of Ireland didn't need to discuss homosexuality! Perhaps, if they did, they used words (maybe innocently) that were offensive to gay people. Perhaps I should start referring to my friends in those terms. On the other hand, perhaps not.

Ggn, are you saying that Niall Ó Dónaill heard the Irish word for "syncretistic" included in his dictionary in use in Loch an Iúir Donegal?

Please be specific in your reply: is that what you are saying?

If not, then the word was garnered by him from elsewhere, possibly from Galltacht/Civil Service/Academic/Media usage.

An chillesrach - We finally agree!

And of course I am not saying that "vet" as opposed to "dochtúir bheithíoch" or "tréidlia" should be adopted... I am just pointing out that the media spreads words that may no be used over the kitchen table in Inishmaan. Actually, that's the case in every language.

I am referring to the word Sincréatachas.

I have never needed "syncretist" or "syncretism" in English either...

Its called "Foclòir Gaeilge Bèarla" not "Cnuasach Focal a chuala mè a labhairt ag Jimì Phat Willì cois teineadh Loch an Iùir".

I do not know if he heard it or not but it could well, I will have to check, have occured in literature.

But one should not fall into the racist stereotype that the Gael and their language are incapable of dicussing anything put spreading shyte and mackeral.

Quote:I do not know if he heard it or not but it could well, I will have to check, have occured in literature.

Exactly, you don't know. Neither do I.

Quote: But one should not fall into the racist stereotype that the Gael and their language are incapable of dicussing anything put spreading shyte and mackeral.

Ha! Ha! That was one of the lamest attempts to appeal to political correctness I have seen! The fact that many words in the dictionary were created by the government is hardly "racism". Keep 'em coming!! See the comments of Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha quoted in Philip O'Leary's book on Revival literature on the same subject.

quote:

The fact that many words in the dictionary were created by the government is hardly "racism".

I'm fed up with you coming on Irish forums trolling by trying to punish people all the time by saying that some Irish words are made by the government, what are you trying to do?

Dutch has a commitee for creating new words and it is natural for a language because if that don't happen the language will become irrelevent and you won't be able to discuss amount of topics.

I really hate it people like you learning language learn the language, enjoy the craic, have fun learning Irish, since you put people off learning Irish instead of increasing speakers.

You are doing the language no favours, David.

quote:

An chillesrach - We finally agree!

I don't think we do. On re-reading my post, I can see how I appear to be suggesting that the academics and the media have no role and that the ordinary decent people of the Gaeltacht should be the exclusive source of language development. I was actually saying that both elements have a significant role to play. We lose richness without the Gaeltacht and we lose relevance without the academics. Sorry if I wasn't being clear.

(Message edited by an_chilleasrach on November 03, 2009)

I am still not clear, an chilleasrach. Relevance to who or what?

(Message edited by trigger on November 03, 2009)

Relevance to the rapidly changing world around us. It is in the Gaeltacht that the use of English (or English loans) to describe newer phenomena is most prevalent. Official or quasi-official involvement actually limits the encroachment of Béarlachas (I hate that term!) through composing Irish words for such things. The extent to which those gain currency is another issue (and the influence of English on Irish is a natural thing anyway). How do I discuss the world around me if the words for the things I want to talk about don't exist in Irish and nothing organic seems to be heading my way from Gaoth Dobhair or Dún Chaoin?

The Irish spoken in Muskerry is very influenced by English, and every speaker I've listened to from there its their prononciation that is influenced by English I've heard ''ch'' prononced as a K, ''baile'' prononced as ball-yuh and stuff like that.

No Gaeltacht dialect is more perfect than the other, as Timd does.

(Message edited by trigger on November 03, 2009)

I am not sure what Trigger means. For a start, Ch pronounced as k and baile pronounced as ball-yuh would be heavily accented Irish. I'm not sure why this has cropped up.

As for neologisims, I think native speakers in the 1930s freely made them up if they needed them. Of course I did say above:

"And of course I am not saying that "vet" as opposed to "dochtúir bheithíoch" or "tréidlia" should be adopted... I am just pointing out that the media spreads words that may no be used over the kitchen table in Inishmaan. Actually, that's the case in every language."

I had never heard of tréidlia, and it is interesting to find out these words.

''For a start, Ch pronounced as k and baile pronounced as ball-yuh would be heavily accented Irish. I'm not sure why this has cropped up.''

But you once attacked someone for giving ch as a K, so why are you contraditcting yourself?

??? I am being criticised for (apparently) supporting pronouncing ch as k, and also for opposing pronouncing ch as k?

What has this got to do with aerach? You have taken this thread onto a tangent that is self-contradictory. I clearly DO NOT think BOTH that ch is k and that ch is not k.

As far as I know: aerach = e:rəx (not e:rək)

an fear aerach na fir aeracha
a fhir aeraigh! a fheara aeracha!
an fhir aeraigh na bhfear aerach

Ok SeanT, TimD

(Message edited by trigger on November 03, 2009)

The reason why the native speakers in Muskerry didn't know the Irish word for ''vet'' is because most native speakers in Muskerry are more fluent in English than Irish.

On our way to a closed thread, a chairde.

Caoimhín

Ná bac leis an mbéarlachas go fóill a Timd, ach faigh réidh leis an daorlachas san thuas agus tabhair Inis Meáin ar Inis Meáin feasta, mura mhiste leat.

Scríobh Lughaidh:

quote:

Míle fearr focla Béarla agus cora cainte agus comhréir Ghaeilge a dh'úsáid, ná focla úra Gaeilge a dh'úsáid agus achan abairt a dh'aistriú ón Bhéarla focal ar fhocal,

Táimse 100% ar aon fhocal leat faoi sin.

This is all very interesting. A simple point to keep in mind is that Irish isn't even Irish anymore. It wasn't in 1500, 1000, or 500 AD. Well, then, what is Irish? You have Gaeilge Nua which has already been influenced by other languages, adopted foreign words and phrases and grammar and made it her own. Believe it or not, that is the sign of a strong language. Take English from 1066 to 1399. On one side you have Anglo-Saxon, on the other you have Chaucer, an AS base with a Norman French overlay. Now that was a language that won out its masters! And Irish did this as well with her Norman masters! Irish is potentially just as strong on the Island today. Words coming into Irish are for the most part not Bearlachás but expansion and development of the language. She's growing and healing from her wounds. Think how much was lost when so many fled and died! That is not to say that there are not some coinings that fall flat, and some true Bearlachás going on, but just as the people working at focal.ie could be accused of some interesting coinings, so could the other side be accused of knee-jerk reactions against any English influence on Irish. I think if people stick to their dictionaries, then they'll be okay for the most part. Plus there is evidence on the other side of native Irish words being used widespread for modern implements.

Funny. How many idioms are similar in French and in English? Very few, believe me.

When a language's idioms are replaced by foreign idioms because its learners are too lazy to learn the genuine ones, it's not a good sign... It just mean that very soon, most of its speakers will be non-native ones, and that most of its speakers won't be able to speak it properly - those who're reluctant to learn idioms, will be reluctant to learn the sounds, and the grammar, and the accent, and will keep their Irish as close as their English as possible because it's easier that way!

I remember an old guy in An Cheathrú Rua teasing me on this point long ago: "Carbad Coiteann a thugaimidne ar taxi tá's agat!" sez he. "An mar sin é!" thinks I.

Recently I came across a beauty on www.focal.ie: "speansais" for "expenses." Irish is safe when young people begin to hammer the be J----s out of English words like that in order to make them fit.

Even non-native speakers have salvaged some vocabulary, some idiom, some distinctive sounds, and are proud of their Irish. The more people who engage in such use of Irish the better.

Anyone who knows Irish nowadays has received traditional Irish in some form whether from a relative or a teacher or even from listening to the radio or tapes or CDs. It would be a delight to just speak the langauge if it were not for the language critics seeking to shrivel any green shoots of enthusiasm.

Lughaidh, who are you calling "lazy"? Abusing people who learn Irish for supposed defects is ridiculous and merely causes people to think "does he think he is better than us?" Learners are learners. We are all learners even of our mother-tongue. How about offering us a bit of encouragement from your high horse.

By all means remind us of the sounds and the idioms and your beloved dialects but give credit where it is due. People are learning and using Irish. It's a new world out there.

quote:

The most telling characteristic of Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish [author's term] is that a monoglot speaker of Traditional Late Modern Irish would struggle to understand much of it, especially a lot of what is found in our contemporary literature. In other words, knowledge of English is a pre-requisite to the understanding of Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish. This is caused, in the main, by the unnatural
influence of English phonology and syntax on the contemporary language so that much of contemporary Irish is really nothing more than an imitation of English.

While no one is immune from the influence of English, the main offenders are the media, journalists of every description, and the thousands who are learning Irish as a second language, but who do not understand that they need to learn it correctly.

quote:

Lexical and Syntactic Equivalence

The main characteristics of this new type of Irish manifest themselves in three areas: Phonology, Morphology and Syntax. I will confine myself to Syntax. While there is, generally speaking, a certain amount of lexical equivalence between any two languages, it is the difference in (or lack of) syntactic equivalence which distinguishes them from each other, and which makes them two distinct and different languages.

A very simple example of what I mean is seen in the common idiom, found in many languages, that expresses the universal concept that different people have different ways of doing things. In English, it is usually rendered by When in Rome, do as the Romans do; in German by Andere Länder, andere Sitten. The usual literary equivalent of this in Irish is (or used to be, at any rate) Ní lia tír ná gnás, i.e. ‘There are more customs than there are countries’.

When we compare these three proverbs, we see that they express (more or less) the same concept. However, there is no direct lexical nor syntactic equivalence between them. Rather, the equivalence can be described as indirect. It is indirect as there is no similarity between the words (nor indeed the syntax) used in the phrases which express the concept.

It is more than likely that your typical speaker of Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish will be familiar with the concept contained in the above, but unfamiliar with the way Traditional Late Modern Irish expresses it. Faced as he is with this dilemna (on a daily basis) the speaker of Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish will fall back (as he always does) on his native language, English. In this, his mother
tongue, the concept is embodied in the expression When in Rome, do as the Romans do. This is transferred (as opposed to translated) directly into Irish as something like Nuair a bhíonn tú sa Róimh, déan ar nós na Rómhánach. Here the equivalence is said to be direct. Needless to say, the new expression stinks of Anglicism and corrodes the linguistic integrity of the traditional language.

Other examples of the type of thing Irish is faced with are some of the following:

Time will tell Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir Indirect
Time will tell Inseoidh (an t-) am Direct
No one is perfect Ní bhíonn saoi gan locht Indirect
No one is perfect Níl aon duine foirfe Direct
Silence is golden Is binn béal ina thost Indirect
Silence is golden Tá (an) ciúnas órga Direct

What is happening therefore is that the lexical (but more alarmingly the syntactic equivalence) between the two languages is becoming more and more direct, something which is leading to the transformation of Traditional Late Modern Irish into Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish.

- "Late Modern Irish and the Dynamics of Language Change and Language Death", Feargal Ó Béarra, NUI Galway

"On our way to a closed thread, a chairde. "

I can't believe you didn't close it or at least offer an admonition after this breathtakingly bigoted gem:

"Perhaps they could just "reclaim" Piteog and be done with it? They've made "Queer" their own in the past few years."

Piteog = Pansy/Sissy. Charming, and nice to see it seems to be tolerated here.

Nice extracts, Danny 2007. And backs up what Lughaidh was saying.

I think a major part of the problem with this thread and similar discussions is the focus solely on lexical elements - single words -, frequently coloured by lack of data.

As I showed above, many of the supposed Anglicisms have a long heritage in Irish, and did not enter the langauge from Irish.

I think we all need to read more good Irish before setting up lexical tribunals.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing - my point is that learners really serious about Irish should, as well as inhabiting forams such as this should engage with really good native speakers, academics etc.

Remember, there is no agreed concept of what is good Irish, there is a least half a dozen different concepts.

Learners should learn everything they can and form their own idea.

i dont thk that this has Not gone far enough to be closed , but i do think that this is another boring negative thread , based on some new moderd words that come into the Language naturally , as happens ,why not get over it, Gaeilge like any other language cannot be defended from outside Influences so once again , Get over it. Why not spent this wasted time on actually just learning the Language, Enjoying the Language, it cannot be Purifyed , posts like this as well as how many speakers and the quality of Irish these days , to me are just ramblings of people who cannot be bothered to actually sit down and learn and use , and when ready , pass it on. Why not fill this forum with questions on grammar and how dialects ( and not which is better or more widely used) and maybe you will actually forget yourself and actually learn some of tghe Target language that you claim to have an interest and a liking for.

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Why not fill this forum with questions on grammar and how dialects ( and not which is better or more widely used) and maybe you will actually forget yourself and actually learn some of the Target language that you claim to have an interest and a liking for.

What a great idea! Maith thú a Theifeach!

The quote from Feargal Ó Béarra is interesting. If Feargal were on this forum, he would instantly become an object for hatred, but there is no reason to express "fury" that some people have different opinions. I suppose Aonghus would chip in that Feargal obviously doesn't read enough Irish - but Feargal is a native speaker and so trumps everyone on this list. In general, Teifeach is right that we should concentrate on learning rather than arguing around the subject!

I was interested by Ní lia tír na gnás. Is this really a full equivalent for When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Actually I was not sure about Andere Länder, andere Sitten as an equivalent for the English. I don't know what sitten means. I suppose it means: different countries, different customs. But that is not what When in Rome... means. When in Rome... is not just an observation that different countries do things differently, but also a positive injunction to fit in culturally in other countries. In other words, it corresponds well to the Chinese 入乡随俗, but I am not sure that it correponds to ní lia tír na gnás.

Does Ní lia tír na gnás imply the same thing as the English, that you should follow the local customs in countries with different cultures? Or does it just comment dispassionately that there are many customs around the world? It may be that the meaning stretches to cover what the English means but I just don't know whether it does and that is what I am asking.

Thanks Bodhrán and tmd , but i do not want to stifle debate , as i find thats what is strongesst trait with this site , but its not a thing i like to much , and i generally find its just another word for arguement , and i have yet to see one person say to another
"Yeah i agree with you now and i want to change my opinion"
So i do my best and try to avoid them , but its so so easy to get drawn in when you have an opinion , or if you disagree with someone , and therfore i have often notice it gets heated and angry , and usually locked , but not always. So in what way is theis useful ?
i try and not be bad mannered and angry and rude to the posters , but i am so passionate about Irish that its just unavoidable sometimes.

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I suppose Aonghus would chip in that Feargal obviously doesn't read enough Irish

Huh? I stated clearly above that I fully agree with what Feargal is saying! How is what he is saying different to anything I have said? Or are you just trolling?

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With reagrds to the phrase. Obviously, different idioms have different histories. And different languages have different modes of expression.

"When in Rome" is attributed to St Ambrose, from a time when his diocese of Milan differed in practice to that of Rome. He was asked what Milanese should do about it in Rome, and coined the phrase.

Sin ráite, ní lia duine ná tuairim!

An e-book link for Feargal's paper:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=VgBtaDT-evYC&lpg=PA260&ots=7XS4RssAfW&dq=%22Late %20Modern%20Irish%20and%20the%20Dynamics%20of%20Language%20Change%20and%20Langua ge%20Death%22&pg=PA260#v=onepage&q=%22Late%20Modern%20Irish%20and%20the%20Dynami cs%20of%20Language%20Change%20and%20Language%20Death%22&f=false

Aonghus, this is not a criticism, but just an attempt to point something out. You often write "sin ráite", translating word for word from English. But as you said, you fully agree with what Feargal is saying. So on page 2 of his paper, you should note that "sin ráite" does not exist in Irish. Ina dhiaidh sin féin, mar sin féin má tá féin are the forms he recommends. Please don't take offence.

It's a good paper.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as Feargal. But it seems to me that he is saying the same as I am - we all need more exposure to what he calls "Traditional Late Modern Irish".

He thinks that is not possible. I'm less certain. There are the works of Padraic Ó Conaire, Breandán Ó hEithir (one of which was a best seller when first published), Mairtín Ó Cadhain, Johnny Chóil Mhaidhc - to just mention some from his part of the country.

I see. You may be right, Aonghus, especially as the Classics are being republished.

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You often write "sin ráite", translating word for word from English.

As I said, I don't agree with everything he said. I'll conceed that I may have picked up bad habits, since I do read a lot of the journalism he is concerned about. I do not claim to be a paragon of "Traditional Late Modern Irish". But I don't see a whole lot wrong with that phrase, and I have heard it from native speakers on RnaG.

But my original argument here, which is unchanged, is that damning single words as "unirish" is unproductive; that the real problem is the wholesale use of word for word clichés.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match as to what kind of speaker I am. But I have spoken both English and Irish all my life. (And German all my adult life, just to confuse matters).

I agree, it's a good paper. Reading the old masters is one good way of avoiding 100% Béarla with síneadh fadas.

One of the more positive aspects about the inherently unknowable nature of the future is that when someone, however convincingly, invokes a well-founded past history of negative events to forecast doom it does not necessarily compel one to immediately consign oneself to despair.


[I try my best to avoid discussions (especially in English -;)) about the revival of the language; it's always seems to play a bit like the umpteenth showing of The Last Remake Of Beau Geste. But here goes anyway...]


The buanú of the Irish language is a feasible project. Amháin the political vision and courage has been amiss.

As long as you still have people around who can teach and pass on the deep-rooted Gaeilge it can still be done.

(The following remarks do not apply to Daltaí etc!!!)
The buttressing of the indispensable Gaeltacht by building up a strong urban-based Irish population is essential. The only way to build up this base is through the largest language resource outside the Gaeltacht: the schools. It would entail identifying the willing and able pupils in every school year - just like you would do in sport or music - and giving them special resources to get them up to a permanently viable standard which would also be infhorbartha. You would have to throw in a few extra incentives; after all an army marches on its belly - put it down to the cost of survival. Going on a mildly optimistic percentage of 5% of pupils, a base of 50,000 to 100,000 could be built up in the space of 50 years - you could factor in the offspring by then too and other positive "spin-off" factors. It might sound like a never-never time-frame but half the battle would already be won once a strong irreversible trend had been achieved.

If the Irish people want the language to be alive and kicking in the latter half of the next century they will have to take some form of that word "elitism" into their mouths for some period along the way.

If the Irish rugby team had gone about winning the Grand Slam like the Irish state (including people) have gone about trying to achieve the buanú of the language...
I mean the rugby team didn't achieve their goal by sitting around in the dressing room discussing soccer and deploring the demise of Irish rugby.

In the end the people have the choice: dreams or de... I will not speak the ineffable!

NB: baineann na barúlacha radacacha thuas amháin leis an gcóras oideachais.

As you said, Ormondo, debates about Irish Revival are to be avoided, but as far as I can see, the best solution would be to try to create Irish monoglots, eg by banning the use of any English at all in schools in the Gaeltacht, and banning the use of any English at all in gaelscoileanna elsewhere in the country. If that is not the policy, it would be disingenuous to deny that the language is being slowly wrapped up.

That is the policy, at least in the school my sons attend. Policy is one thing. Application, unfortunately, another.

I think hoping for monoglot speakers of any language in Europe is an illusion (except perhaps mongolot Anglophones).

According to De Bhaldraithe (1959 copy):

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zú(zoo) changes to [clós ainmhithe]

Gairdín ainmhithe, popular sú

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péint(paint) changes to [uisce dath]

péint or dath

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veidhlín(violin) changes to [bheidhlín]

veidhlín (although he dosn't use a W for his last name ...)

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eirgeanamaíocht(ergonomics) changes to [corpeolaíocht]

eirgeanamaíocht (indirectly constructed from erg + nomics)

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I can't believe you didn't close it or at least offer an admonition after this breathtakingly bigoted gem:

"Perhaps they could just "reclaim" Piteog and be done with it? They've made "Queer" their own in the past few years."

Breathtakingly bigoted!?
You've misinterpreted what was intended as a facetious remark.

My point about the word "Queer" in English though is solid enough I think.
Not too long ago it was solely used as a disparaging term for homosexuals but in recent years they've taken to using it for themselves, "devenomising" it.

Danny2007: Níl a fhios agam cén fáth ar chaith tú slámanna móra as aiste Fheargail Uí Bhéarra chugainn. An é gur mian leat a chur in iúl dúinn nach fiú cac circe an Ghaeilge atá foghlamtha againn le hais Gaeilge na naoú aoise déag?

Preit, a dhuine.

Tá siad sin go léir ar shlí na fírinne. Is linne an teanga anois. Déanfaimid ár gcuid féin di. Cén fáth nár tharraing tú an tAthair de Hindeburg chugat féin. Níl in Ó Béarra ach tráchtaire. Fear léannta. Scoláire.

Tá's aige siúd gur bás agus athfhás atá i ndán do theanga ar bith. Ní cás do Pheig anois agus í i gcré na huaighe cén teanga a labhraíonn tusa ná mise Danny2007. Nach ea. Déanaimid ár ndícheall. Tusa. Agus mise.