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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (November-December) » Archive through November 25, 2009 » Irish Made Easy by Seán Ó Cuíve « Previous Next »

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 55
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 12:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde, Dia dhaoibh.
After much messing about from my own nearly empty data base, to create a written vehicle for the sounds in an Irish song, the words of which I id not understand, I have troubled many people with my nearly pointless system, which I called Quick and Dirty, Q+D.
This was based on the present English understanding of the vowel sounds, and not on the Irish. That was a major error, for it would require a relearning of sounds when upgrading to true Irish.
Ó Cuív's system keeps the Irish vowel sounds, and greatly simplifies the consonants. By bringing into the system a number of Roman letters not included in the traditional Irish alphabet, it reduces, but does not eliminate the number of 'h's used.
One major downside to the system is the multitude of accents used, some of which cannot easily be reproduced via a standard keyboard.
The original book which I am studying can be found here:>
http://www.box.net/shared/o94q9rzsfa
It was found originally on Google Books, and is believed to be public domain, and a re-typeset version, which is work in progress can be found here:>
http://www.box.net/shared/jafg4eyt8z
It is my intention to finish the re-typesetting as an aid-to-study and then try to transliterate the Munster Irish words of the song 'Preab san ól' into the system.

There seem to be errors in the original, and how, and whether they should be corrected is a worry to me.
Proof-readers and commenters would be appreceated.
GRMA
Slán
Dave

ps. the 'e' on the end of 'Cuív' is a typo which I do not know how to correct. Sorry.

(Message edited by daveat168 on October 26, 2009)

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 56
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde, Dia dhaoibe.
I have now completed the re-typsetting, and awaiting proof-readers.
What I have discovered though, is that whereas my system, Q+D lacked a sound foundation of Irish vowel sounds, it was thoroughly disciplined, but whereas LS is soundly based on Irish pronunciation, discipline and method seems, at least to my English eyes to be somewhat lacking.
Points I do not like are:
1/ There remain some 'aspirated' consonants, 'ch' and 'gh', and there is a totally strange consonant pair, a direct English import, which will cause confusion on upgrading, namely, slender 's', which uses an 'h' glide as in English.
This will need to be 'unlearned'.
2/ I am dubious about the use of 'y' as a broad 'i'. It does make some sense, but I feel that 'y' should be used for slender 'gh', maybe then, as in Q+D, 'q' could stand for broad 'gh'.
Also, LS retains 'ch', which would better be represented by 'x', as in IPA.
3/ As an English learner of Irish, I have difficulty with the concept of 'glides' This is not a problem in speech, as listen, and repeat, takes care of them automatically, however, when written, they are ambiguous with true diphthongs, and require an extra knowledge base to discriminate them.
I see two posibilities here:
a/ Where both vowels in the diphthong are equally emphasized, insert a 'y' glide, or a 'w' glide between them, as would be appropriate, or,
b/ Where only one of the pair is emphasized, the 'y' or 'w' glide may suffice, and the second vowel be omitted.
This idea might also extend to triphthongs.

Setting aside any doubts I might have with 'y', and choosing 'j' as consonantal 'i' iaw IPA, let me look at how I would treat the Irish words Ó Cuív uses on page 18 of part 2.
eá: beár, feár, geár, meán: bjár, fjár, gjár, mján.
ái: dáil, fáil, Máiri, láir, gáiri, amáireach: dájl, fájl, Májri, lájr, gájri, amájr, now is it jax, or is it iwx?
eái: cisheáin, tisbeáin, mileáin, Cheáin: cisjájn, tisbjájn, miljájn, Xjájn.
eó: ceól, beól, ceólán, deól, deónú, feócha: cjól, bjól, clólán, djól, djónú, fjóxa.
ói: cóir, dóiv, fóil, lóin, móin, móid, nóin, tóir: cójr, dójv, fójl, lójn, mójn, mójd, nójn, tójr.
eói: ceóil, feóil, dreóil: cjójl, fjójl, drjójl.
iú: fiú, fiún, ciún, miún, liú, diúga, priúnsa, tiûsgal: fjú, fjún, cjún, mjún, ljú, djúga, prjúnsa, tjûsgal.
úi: cúigi, dúil, fúiv, fúing, lúib, lúireach, múini, púicín, arúir: cújgi, dújl, fújv, fújng, lújb, lújreach, mújni, pújcín, arújr.
iúi: ciúin, miliúin, figiúir: cjújn, miljújn, figjújr.
ea: geata, peata, peaca, beaca, beart, beaha, ceapa, leaba, geatuiri: geyta, peyta, peyca, beyca, beyrt, beyha, ceypa, leyba, geytujri. I can see 'y' used as a broad glide in these words.
ai: airím, bail, baili, caile, cailín, caiti, dair, fairi, mairi, tair: ajrím, bajl, bajli, cajle, cajlín, cajti, dajr, fajri, majri, tajr.
eai: geaitiri: gjajtiri.
eo: leog, beog: ljog, bjog.
oi: loit, toil, goil, goiv, roiv. Now these would be utterly amiguous if it were not for the orthography, so here LS fails utterly. Orthogrphy suggests they should be: lojt, tojl, gojl, gojv, rojv: but reading LS, one might easily read as: lwit, twil, gwil, gwiv, rwiv!
iu: ciun, giura, gliugar: again ambiguous, but here, the orthography is of no help. Only the knowledge base helps here, but the learner has no knowledge base.
Which is the glide? Is it: cjun, gjura, gljugar,
or is it: ciyn, giyra, gliygar?
ae: bael, Gael, tael: These too could be ambiguous. Knowledge base, using Gael, shows e to be the glide, so: bajl, Gajl, tajl: but consider bwel, Gwel, twel!
éa: buidéal, Síshgéal, páipéar: bujdéyl, Syisgéyl, pájpéyr.
uí: cuíni, duíni, muíntir, cuíri, buín, muíl, sguíl, cuíl, ghuíl: cwíni, dwíni, mwíntir, cwíri, bwín, mwíl, sgwíl, cwíl, qwíl.
ío: bíon, chíon, fíon, líon, díon, díonán, píopa, tíorho: bíwn, chíwn, fíwn, líwn, díwn, díwnán, píwpa, tíwrho.
ui: buin, buin, cuir, cuin, tuir, duine, muin, muini, luigi, luiv: again mbiguous! Consider: bwin, bwin, cwir, twir, dwini, mwin, mwini, lwigi, lwiv: or bujn, buyn, cujr, cujn, tujr, dujni, mujn, mujni, lujgi, lujv.
io: fiona, miona, bior: again ambiguous! Is it fiyna, or fjona, miyna or mjona, biyr or bjor?

Does this make a valid point, or am I just rattling on about my hobby-horse?
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 57
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde, Dia dhaoibh.
I think I can put a closure on this system.
O Cuíve required the use of an inverted caret accent on some un-emphasized vowels.
The inverted caret is difficult to produce on a pc or mac.
The un-emphasized vowel is then commonly pronounced as 'schwa' or 'schwee'.
We have from O Cuív, the use of 'y' as a vowel, being the 'i' sound, but being broad, rather than slender.
O Cuív, though was happy to use 'y' also as a consonantal glide, if it was adjacent to a true vowel.
So, we can apply the same logic to 'j' and to 'w'.
If either is adjacent to a true vowel, then they are consonantal glides, but if they stand alone, they are vowels in their own right, 'w', being 'schwa', and 'j' being 'schwee'.
This, I believe gives closure to the set, which is now complete.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 58
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 11:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde, Dia dhaoibh.
Working from "Irish Made Simple", and using the basis of LS, and the Pimsleur method, I have attempted a script.
Is anyone, or two or three interested in making recordings based on this script, to generate a continuation course to Pimsleur. Pimsleur has at the present, and the foreseeable future, no interest in continuing with the course strted as Irish One.
This is a rough script, and modifications are expected.
You can find the script here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TYIMunster/message/890
GRMA
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.



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