As I've been looking into Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail lately, I decided to Google 'Cois Fhairrge Irish' and come upon this link:
http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5384&page=2

In it a proponent of Cork Irish made the following claim about Conamara Irish:

quote:

Of course many people say it doesn't matter which Irish is chosen, but think about "Vicky Pollard" in Little Britain - her English is full of "sumfink or nuffink", "brought" when she means "bought", "ain't" instead of "isn't", "should of" instead of "should have". Now Galway Irish is full of things like that - the Galway people were the least educated in Ireland, whereas Cork maintained a literary tradition. And the Standard Irish has been changed to include a lot of rubbish from Connemara (Sumfink or nuffink! I fink I should of brought it yesterday! is a good equivalent of what Standard Irish is like.)

quote:

I see the man: if you look at 17th 18th 19th and early 20th century Irish, this verb should be at-chím or do-chím (but feicim in the dependent forms after ní). Actually Donegal preserves it best: I see 'tchím. Munster = chím or do-chím (the do- particle is seen in old books). And the Connemara thickoes, the Vicky Pollards of Irish-speaking Ireland, say "feicim".

Is there any truth to this? Was this person just trying to start yet another dialect war, or do they have a point? Is Conamara Irish a bit more casual? More earthy and less refined?

Looking at that post leads me to believe that it was written by a notorious flame merchant. ["the Muskerry Yahoo group (which I am the owner of)"]

Níl lia duine ná tuairim.

Since there is no possible standard definition against which one could measure casualness or otherwise, I would put this in the category of "just another dialect war".

Simple: the writer is ignorant.

It ain't going to provoke me either way except pity that the author has to come up with such a sad analysis.......but I'm guessing that's all they do--analyse Irish. Takes a bit more effort to actually learn the Irish and particularly the dialect.

Like yourself Danny...........

How is the Irish learning going for you?

Well, writing such rubbish about a dialect just shows the author doesn't know anything about what a language is.

I'm a bit surprised by that Lughaidh. Since this person goes on to rage against the 'Standard' and the excessive (as they see it) Conamara influence in it. And we all know you are no friend of 'Standard Irish'.

Do you not consider Ulster Irish to be superior to all other dialects?

quote:

How is the Irish learning going for you?

Painfully slow. Buntús Cainte wasn't engaging enough for me and as a result my Irish learning eroded badly. I have a few other resources that I use but I've been having a hard time getting motivated. There are times when I'm really into it and others where I don't even bother. Trying to get into a routine and setting goals has been the hardest thing. I haven't been in Ireland for 13 months, I'm thousands of kilometeres away, I'm not close to an urban centre, I'm learning on on my own. blah blah blah

I first started getting serious about learning Irish in 2007 (hence the username) but haven't progressed that much during that time. That's two years now that I could've been doing intensive learning but it was never a priority. Just learning bits and pieces here and there.

I'm now trying to get back into it SERIOUSLY and that's why I've purchased Learning Irish and am considering getting Progress In Irish or Irish Grammar Book too. I'm hoping that will kickstart things for me again. I'm so interested in the sociolinguistic aspects, the Gaeltacht etc, that it's hard devoting time to actually learning more than the basics.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 23, 2009)

Regarding the OP, they were trying to make a comparison between Cockney and Conamara Irish. In English, certain dialects or accents are considered 'lower class', are they not? Or certain ways of speaking? Certain ways of constructing sentences and so on. Why wouldn't it be the same in Irish?

I've come across pro-Cork Irish rants like this a couple times before (they're what keep from joining the Muskerry Irish group referred to despite the fact that that's the variety I'm learning) and I think they showcase an interesting dilemma: In general, prescriptivist rants target deviations from the formalised standard language. With languages such as English, which lacks any official standard-setting authority, this allows for endless debates about what is and isn't regard as "standard". But for most European languages, the case is quite clear. The Nederlandse Taalunie is responsible for determining what constitutes Algemeen Nederlands or "Common Dutch" and what doesn't. Similarly the the Irish educational authorities are responsible for maintaining An Caighdeán Oifigiúil.

This puts Irish-language purists--who are by nature conservative and authoritarian in philosophy--in the awkward position of being at odds with the recognised official authority. It's interesting to see how they finesse this. The most frothing mount a frontal attack on the standard, charging that the "Connemara Taliban" have infiltrated the government and undermined the pure excellent Irish bequeathed upon us all by the good Athair Peadar. But somewhere, though, I came across someone who took the more pragmatic route of espousing use of the dialects. Presumably, he recognised revisting CO for the lost cause it was and so seized the only plausible alternative which could justify his dogmatic adherence to Muskerry Irish. So you're left with the spectacle of a prescriptivist mounting an argument diametrically opposed to that of his counterparts elsewhere (who are forever championing the standard at the expense of "dialect") and--irony of ironies!--ending up in the same bed as radical descriptivists such as Lughaidh! Ach in Éirinn!

(Tá brón orm gur scriobhas an méid sin i mBéarla ach níl an t-iomlán den lá agam chun Gaelainn a chur air.)

Where there's a will there's a way and like my old music teacher told me, if you want to do something you will make time for it.

We need people to learn Irish- anyone can look at anything from the outside.. not aiming that at you, I just think it's a lazy approach to analyse and do nothing constructive, particularly if it's a negative outlook one ends up adopting.

We are all learners of Irish at different levels and therefore we come here to inspire each other and learn from each other.. we are all of us clearly passionate about Irish and as you know learning Irish presents its challenges to us all in different ways and yes the beginning is the hardest.

Put your mind to it. You can start posting here in Irish and we will all be glad to help you.

I heard Turas Teanga is beneficial to beginners.

We have a million people in Ireland in the census claiming to speak Irish. If they were to actually learn Irish it would be a different country today instead of a quasi wasteland that we are now looking at.

So please... learn Irish and get on with it.

quote:

ending up in the same bed as radical descriptivists such as Lughaidh!

???

quote:

Since there is no possible standard definition against which one could measure casualness or otherwise ...

Excellent point.

The author is making almost the same arguments that were made early on. This argument is that the standard should be the literary language of the past centuries. The "almost" is that this "pure" form is contained in the old Christian Brothers grammar. Any language claim is aiming at a moving target. Pure today is archaic tomorrow. Corruption today is standard tomorrow. Etc. I have never liked it when people relate to language like it is morals and dogma. Clearly language is social custom which has a defined "purity" based on context. It isn't inherent "good" or "bad".

quote:

"should of" instead of "should have"

Good example of what I am saying. I would say that 100% of Californians say this in everyday speech. "Should of" should be written rather "should've".

quote:

I'm now trying to get back into [Irish] SERIOUSLY ... I'm so interested in the sociolinguistic aspects, the Gaeltacht etc, that it's hard devoting time to actually learning more than the basics.

I would think that bulstering the Irish you know will help you better understand the socio- parts. Plus you'll have the added bonus of being able to read the Irish stuff as well. It opens up a whole new field of inquiry for you.

quote:

In English, certain dialects or accents are considered 'lower class', are they not? Or certain ways of speaking? Certain ways of constructing sentences and so on. Why wouldn't it be the same in Irish?

Certainly this is true. I think that English has a different tradition because the different English dialects have melded and mixed, moved to other places, etc. In California, southern US English is considered mostly rural and simple. Most people would think "uneducated" at first thought and it is often made fun of. But when you live down there, which I did for two years, you realize that within their dialect, they have the same distinctions. Some "southern" English is "redneck" English (common image, guy missing teeth with a red neck from working outside), and others are the upper class English. It just happens to coincide with the Midwestern dialect that is quite the standard here. I have to say, I had a real hard time understanding country folks in Tennessee. One may say that they have preserved a dialect from the past because the city forms were more adapted to the Midweatern English. The country English has "slurs" and words that I never have heard, or used in ways I did't use. (Jeff Foxworthy has made a career of this!)

Example: Common phrase in Tennessee when doing work is pronounced "what chyou like?". And I said, "what?". And they said, "what chyou like?" And I said, "what?". ... Finally a merciful fellow explained to me that it is "what do you lack?" meaning "how much work do you have left?" This blew my mind, and I thought "what an abuse of the language. Lack is not used this way." I then got used to it, and realized this is one of the things that makes Tennesseans who they are -- including their excellent music (Irish influenced)! Another one that got me was "toboggan". To me, it is a snow sled. To them, a "stocking cap" or "skull cap" or what I'd call a "beanie".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/toboggan

It goes on and on. But to bring it back to Irish. Most Irish were poor. The dialects were dispersed, and faced a powerful language like English. The social situations are different, but humans are similar. It is social custom. And while I favor some standards just as I think we should have some government in society, it shouldn't stifle dislects or cast them off into non-standard "bog-talk" stereotypes. It's actually quite fun and fascinating when you start talking with people and the richness of the language unfolds.

quote:

In English, certain dialects or accents are considered 'lower class', are they not? Or certain ways of speaking? Certain ways of constructing sentences and so on. Why wouldn't it be the same in Irish?

These are often urban phenomena. Irish is usually defined by rural societies where mode of speech is much less a social marker.

And a sweeping declaration that a whole province is lower class is obvious nonsense.

Not every Londoner is a Cockney speaker.

quote:

Do you not consider Ulster Irish to be superior to all other dialects?

There's no superior language or dialect of any language on this planet.
I think considerations of "superior languages" and "inferior languages" led to the decay of Irish (and other languages).

Regarding this "Muskerry list owner": Forget him. He's a ... [course word of your choice].

Lars


(Message edited by Lars on October 25, 2009)

quote:

And a sweeping declaration that a whole province is lower class is obvious nonsense.

Of course. I mean, I'm not trying to defend this guy (whoever he is), but it got me thinking. If we're honest, there are certain accents in English which are often considered less 'refined', surely? Could it be the same in Irish? Is there a particular dialect that is looked down upon by some native speakers, for example?

Not really, no.

Of course some people prefer their own local accent to the one from the next townland - but there the feeling is usually mutual! There's certainly not a general sense that Donegal/Connemara/Mayo/take-your-pick is inferior or lower-class.

As a diglossically spoken minority language, Irish doesn't need to carry the same kind of social baggage: your English accent takes care of all that.

quote:

your English accent takes care of all that.

Is fíor sin.

Actually, if anything is looked down on in Irish by fluent and native speakers it is usually creolised Irish.

But that has less to do with social status than with one's own gold standard of Irish.

---

Tabhair a dhóthain den ardléann do Ghaeilgeoir agus ní Gaeilgeoir a thuilleadh é ach SCOLÁIRE. Agus, a chairde mo chléibh, is iontach na héanacha iad na scoláirí nuair a bhaineann siad amach beanna arda an léinn mhóir. Tugann siad gráin don uile fhocal den teanga Ghaeilge ach na focla a bhfuil seacht sreama na seanaoise orthu. Níl canúint is fearr leo ná an chanúint atá marbh le céad bliain.
Bíonn a chanúint fhéin ag gach duine acu agus murar féidir leat í sin a labhairt leo go clocharach pislíneach mar is dual labhróidh siad Béarla leat. Bíonn Béarla an-bhreá acu go hiondúil. Le fírinne agus leis an gceart bíonn sé acu chomh maith nó níos fearr ná an Ghaeilge féin. Béarla gan chanúint a chleachtann siad, rud a chuireann ar a gcumas labhairt le formhór chuile Bhéarlóir. Buntáiste mór é seo gan dabht.
Breandán Ó hEithir, Feabhra 1958

quote:

Is there a particular dialect that is looked down upon by some native speakers, for example?

Some? Sure. There is always going to be someone who thinks their speech is better than another's, or a group over another group. They probably think this about others things too, not just language. I believe this was joked about in Turas Teanga, that Cork was the best town in Ireland, etc.

Could there be healthy competition (that is, pride in one's region)? Yes. But I think judgements like these on language do not stem from the language, but from class division. Almost always the poor classes or the minority classes, who often have less access to education, are ridiculed, and the high classes are set as the standrd -- the King's and Queen's English ... But the opposite happens also, the poor folks make fun of the stuffy rich people who have their Grooms of the Stool and can't feed themselves, or speak their eloquent language without a teleprompter. I think the whole thing in regard to language learning is a distraction. How could you possibly please everyone, and should that even be a goal? That certainly takes the joy away!

I think certain accents/dialects are considered 'superior' solely because of the status of their speakers rather than anything inherent in them.
RP English has traditionally been associated in people's minds with wealth, education, sophistication etc. and for that reason is admired and emulated. Had history gone a little different perhaps the English elite would have ended up speaking Cockney - if so that would have been the prestige accent and Michael Caine would be a model of perfect pronunciation throughout the English-speaking world :)

In Ireland the speakers of all dialects have had the same experiences over the past few centuries - all impoverished, forced to eek a living from the land or sea - so no group has had the opportunity to become associated with wealth, education or power.
That said, it is true that Munster and Ulster Irish preserve more features from the old literary dialect than Connacht (or Conamara to be precise) but I'd imagine this impresses scholarly-minded learners a lot more than most ordinary native speakers.

quote:

Actually, if anything is looked down on in Irish by fluent and native speakers it is usually creolised Irish

And rightly so.
The standard most learners seem happy to achieve nowadays is becoming increasingly low. Very poorly pronounced Irish peppered with English is apparently perfectly acceptable, almost fashionable, amongst many.
Once this level is achieved they feel no need to go any further and, in a way, it's understandable - it's more than adequate for TG4 after all :)

quote:

it's more than adequate for TG4 after all

Faraor, tá roinnt den fhírinne ansin.

quote:

Very poorly pronounced Irish peppered with English is apparently perfectly acceptable, almost fashionable, amongst many.

Chreidfeá gurb é seo a motto sin :

Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Gaeilge chliste...

"Do you not consider Ulster Irish to be superior to all other dialects?

If I were (or is it was?) a naughty boy I would say that whatever about (that wonderful) Ulster Irish, Ulster English is definitely superior - especially wiTH regards to pronouncing the "th" - but I'm not, so I won't.

And I heard Gay Byrne giving out years ago on the radio about the soft Irish "t".

Could it be that Irish people generally have a hang-up about all this because they are still at loggerheads with the English language? One way of looking at it would be that the only people lucky enough to be at ease with their language are the proficient native Irish speakers. All the rest of us are still somewhere in mid-stream.