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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through November 01, 2009 » Tenditious Sunday Times Article comprehensively debunked « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8982
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Sunday Times ran an article under the heading "€74,000 grants for writers who sold 76 books"

http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=3112

In this weeks edition of Nuacht24, Re Ó Laighléis comprehensively debunks it, with additional information from Eoghan Ó Néill.

Practically every claim in the article is inaccurate.

Nuacht 24 can be downloaded at:

http://andrumamornuacht.blogspot.com/

Particularly interesting is that Nielsen, the agency quoted in the Sunday Times, confirmed that they track only 60-80% of book sales in Ireland, not the 90% claimed.

There were some letters published in the Sunday Times, but nothing that would completely debunk it.

Unfortunately, the headline (which is not even fully borne out by the article) will be what people remember.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 207
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here is the issue. I believe this is posted by Nuacht24 themselves, so copyright friendly. Please correct me if I am wrong!

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1he7g/nuacht24/resources/4.htm

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8983
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 04:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is.

Additional Key points:
Ré has sold 100,000 books since 1990 (Not sure if that is as a publisher or author, he is both, see http://www.moinin.ie)

His book of short stories Ecstasy has been translated to seven languages.
His book Punc & Scéalta eile sold 90,000 copies.

Nielsen tracked 39 sales of Darach Ó Scolaí's book - the article claimed he had sold only 6.

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 525
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 05:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nach breá é an moladh a deineadh ar http://igaeilge.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/%e2%80%9cbest-sellers%e2%80%9d-na-gaeil ge/ go mba chóir go bhfoilseófaí cairt leabhar sárdhíola (best-seller book chart)?

Chruthódh a leithéid de phoiblíocht - agus bíodh is go mbeadh sí teorannta a bheag ná a mhór do phobal na Gaelainne - iomrá níos suntasaí agus bolscaireacht bhéil sa phobal dos na leabhair atá tar éis a bhfoilsithe.

Imshruthú fola leabhair is ea an plé a spreagann sé agus a spreagtar ina leith i measc an phobail.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 403
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 06:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sloppy journalism.

Who is the best selling author in the Irish language currently?

Aonghus, didn't you once post that most Irish books sell less than 1,000 copies? Going completely from memory here so apologies in advance if I'm way off..

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1426
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 06:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I had once heard that a Gaeilge "bestseller" is one that sold over 300 copies, but I make no claim to the veracity of that tid-bit.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 208
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 07:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Even in the world-wide market for English books, a very very small percentage of published books will sell over 5000 copies. Those authors will make very little income from that. The big selling authors even out the profits for the publishers. Think Oprah Book Club, think Dean Koontz, etc. These people deal in the millions. Irish language is certainly a niche market. It is aiming toward under 12 million people, and only a percentage of those at that. I would think that 300 is good. 1000 is very good. More than this seems like "best-seller" status. Ó Laighléis seems quite successful.

The units sold isn't always the number that matters most to publishers, though those are the numbers focused on by the public. What are your costs of printing? How much are you selling them for? How many returns have you had? At the end of the day, most publishers are interested in how much profit you generated. So 100 full price might be viewed as better than 300 discounted. Amazon UK will purchase your book from a wholesaler for a 45% discount (the wholesaler got usually a 55% discount from you), and sell it to the public at a +/- 20% discount. An Irish book sold in a local shop or even on Litriocht will be sold at retail price. That usually means higher profit percentages for the publisher but fewer copies sold. For instance, Litriocht has An Cleireach for €15.00. The same paperback would probably be on Amazon UK for €12.00.

Relating to the English market in Ireland:
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/presenttense/2008/02/04/how-many-sales-make-a-be stseller/


Hey, Aonghus, you actually got to touch one of the six!

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2007/12/clireach.html

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8985
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 03:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Hey, Aonghus, you actually got to touch one of the six!



I doubt it. I bought from a small, independent bookshop who ordered through Áis. Damn fine book.

quote:

Sloppy journalism.



It is too inaccurate to be just sloppy. Clear signs of an axe to grind, I'm afraid.

quote:

Who is the best selling author in the Irish language currently?



I don't know. Ré Ó Laighléis books are [also] for the teenage market, and may be used in schools.

Padráig Standún's books made an impact on the Nielsen numbers.

As far as I know, the Graphic novels from Cló Mhaigh Eo sell quite well.

But the difficulty is that Áis has only one employee, and most publishers are part time, out of the spare bedroom, operations. So I don't know that anybody is compiling the numbers accurately, or at all.

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 117
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 07:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been buying and reading books in Irish for the last 9 months or so. Most I have enjoyed to some extent but there have been one or two inexcusable turkeys. I know that there is much published in English that is of little literary (or any other) merit but I couldn't believe how awful a particular book I read was. If this book was in English, I would not hesitate in giving the title and the author. Somehow, because the Irish language community is smaller, I am reluctant to do that here for fear of causing offence. A few questions:

Is this symptomatic of a more general reluctance to give a frank assessment of books written in Irish, due to a lack of distance between critic and writer?

Is the required standard for getting something into print in Irish set too low?

Would a more rigorous approach be counterproductive by causing a reduction in output and resources?

Is the funding model partly to blame (although obviously funding is required)?

Was the "get it spent regardless of value for money" attitude now under scrutiny in public institutions also in evidence in funding for authors?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8988
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is this symptomatic of a more general reluctance to give a frank assessment of books written in Irish, due to a lack of distance between critic and writer?



Yes!

But I don't think the standard is too low. I think there are significantly less turkeys in print in Irish than in English.

The funding for authors and publishers does not, as far as I know, do more than just about cover the costs. There are no full time writers in Irish.

More money could be targeted at literary editing, though.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8989
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 406
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 03:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I couldn't believe how awful a particular book I read was.

WIthout naming names, what was awful about it?

quote:

There are no full time writers in Irish.


Not even Éilís Ní Dhuibhne or Alan Titley?

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8991
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 03:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Alan Titley is a college lecturer.

http://www.ucc.ie/acad/mi/foireann/foireann8/

Eilís Ní Dhuibhne is too.

http://www.eilisnidhuibhne.net/

(And she sells books in both Irish & English)

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 410
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 04:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah right I forgot about Titley at UCC. He's a busy man with his IT column and books too.

For poetry, is Nuala Ní Dhómnaill a full time poet? Are there any working in Irish full time?

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8993
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Good question.

I'd be surprised if Nuala lives on the proceeds of her poetry, and she is a mother, but she may be as full time as it gets.

She is one of the recipients of the Arts Council Cnuas

http://aosdana.artscouncil.ie/Cnuas.aspx

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 526
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 08:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Even in the world-wide market for English books, a very very small percentage of published books will sell over 5000 copies.

And that is a worthwhile reminder; too often people tend to compare apples with oranges.

The subset within any language group possessing the proficiency to potentially become writers (in their own language) is relatively small and the subset of proficient writers with creative writing ability - even in the sense of creating engaging non-fiction - is smaller still.

Couple this with the fact that readers (of books) are a minority too, then one can appreciate the constant challenge facing the Gaeilge book sector.

The commercial aspect of the Gaeilge book sector tends towards zero; without state support it would be wellnigh impossible to sustain.

Like I wrote above, a best-seller list could provide the necessary buzz to alert the small market there exists to the books available.

A list of the 100 best Irish books of all time could provide orientation for people looking to build a wee library for themselves. I've found this kind of this useful regarding books written in the tongue of the English nation.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 212
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A list of the 100 best Irish books of all time could provide orientation for people looking to build a wee library for themselves.



Many lists would be nice. Genre lists, best selling lists, "classics" lists, Young Adult lists, etc. This adds to the discussion and "buzz". Most books I read I come to through recommendation whether personally or from a list. I'm not as adventerous as some.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9002
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Oireachtas Literary Prizes are a good guide.

They somewhat avoid the everybody knows everybody problem by having works submit (and therefore judged) anonymously.


http://www.antoireachtas.ie/staging_007/index.php?page=buaiteoiri&tid=5&sid=12

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 528
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Treoir mhaith atá sa mhéid sin, gan amhras.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 219
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 06:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I unfortunately can't locate it now, but I recall a great little handout from a Dublin library branch that was meant to expose people to Irish language literature. It was in Irish and English, was well designed, and probably pretty successful at opening some eyes to the treasures that lay inside. Being a librarian, I think it should be a part of the fundamental mission of the libraries of Ireland to promote native Irish language writers. The pamphlet was an excellent example of being a mediator to those who don't know much about those authors yet.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9004
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 09:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1163
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 10:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seo liosta a foilsíodh in Foinse - ar bhoirdín Dé go raibh sé - cúpla bliain ó shin.

1. Máirtín Ó Cadhain, Cré na Cille.
2. Tomás Ó Criomhthain, An tOileánach.
3. Myles na gCopaleen, An Béal Bocht.
4. Seosamh Mac Grianna, Mo Bhealach Féin.
5. Seán Ó Ríordáin, Eireaball Spideoige.
6. Alan Titley, An Fear Dána.
7. Pádraig Ua Duinnín, Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla.
8. Liam Ó Flaithearta, Dúil.
9. Tomás Ó Raithile (editor), Dánta Grádha.
10. shared by Micheál Ó Conghaile, An Fear a Phléasc and Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill, Cead Aighnis.

B'iontach liom gan Cúirt an Mheán Oíche bheith air.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 221
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis,
Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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An_chilleasrach
Member
Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 05:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

WIthout naming names, what was awful about it?



Basically, it was a Mickey Hammer style detective story*. If you wanted to be charitable you could say that in genre fiction there is a formula to be followed. If you weren't so motivated by charity, you would say that it was riddled with cliche, didn't bother with character and had a silly plot.

Also, you know the hard man cop with a penchant for 'Celtic Mysticism' in the film Intermission? He was in it (but not in a funny way).

I might as well have named names.

I suppose I should also say that, as is the case with most of what I read as Gaeilge, I picked plenty of useful things up.

*Tá an scéal bleachtaire fíor beo i litríocht nua aimsire na Gaeilge. Tá Dúnmharú sa Daingean (Éilis Ní Dhuibhne) and Bás Tobann (Anna Heussaff) léite agam le deanaí. Bhain mé sult as an mbeirt acú.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9017
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 06:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhuel, níl fhios agam cén scéal atá i gceist agat, ach thaitin leabhra Sean Ó Connor liomsa.

Tá ceann eile ag Eilís - Dún an Airgid.

Mo smaointe anseo:

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/search/label/c%C3%A9rinnech%C3%A1in

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An_chilleasrach
Member
Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

thaitin leabhra Sean Ó Connor liomsa



Neamhciontach. Is cérinnechán é anois! (Míle buíochas don bhfocal sin, a Aonghuis)

Béidh mé ag dul go dtí an Siopa Leabhar ar Sráid Fhearchair ag ám lóin inniú mar tá mo soláthairtí caite anois. Ceannóidh mé Dún an Airgid agus b'fhéidir rud éigin ó Phadraig ó Standún. Léigh mé cúpla leathanach as An Cléireach sa siopa le deanaí ach caithfidh mé mo chuid Gaeilge a fheabhsú sula mbainfinn triail as.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 9020
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 08:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Muna bhfuil Dibírt Dé an Standúnaigh léite agat, is fiú é léamh.

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 09:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Would other posters recommend the Open Door series? The only one I've read is 'Rúin' by Patricia Scanlan,which was at the absolute limit of my comprehension.I quite enjoyed it,though it's obviously aimed at a younger age group.The reason I ask is that our 'cómhra' group are thinking of setting up a reading circle.This would entail asking the librarian to order 5/6 copies of one book.Open Door publishes i nGaeilge agus Béarla and our group is of mixed ability.From amaideach,briste - me - to retired primary school heads.They might find Roddy Doyle a bit silly ,mar shampla? Anyone read other writers in the series? Maith agaibh

PS a Abigail,Tá Cúirt an Mheán Oíche an-ghraosta.Ní thuigim an duan iomlán.Certainly an incentive to learn more!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1164
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 10:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá gan dabht. An-scéal mar sin féin.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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An_chilleasrach
Member
Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 10:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Muna bhfuil Dibírt Dé an Standúnaigh léite agat, is fiú é léamh.



Ní fhaca mé do theachtaireacht roimh mo chuairt - roghnaigh mé Sobalsaol ach tá Díbirt Dé ar mo liosta anois.

Bhí oifig CnaG dúnta mar tá siad go léir imithe go dtí Thir Chonaill la haghaidh an Oireachtas. Bhí an bean bocht taobh thiar den chuntar sa Siopa Leabhar fágtha ina haonar - an Cinderella den tSraid Fearchair!



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