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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through October 20, 2009 » Question about Lesson 14 Progress in Irish. « Previous Next »

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Lesson 14 of PII, the following exanples are given by the author, "Cuir ORT do chóta", "Cuir ORT do chuid éadaigh" and "Chuir sé a chuid éadaigh AIR".
The answer key (Conradh na Gaeilge of New England) for questions 16 & 17 shows "Chuir sé AIR a chuid éadaigh agus chuaigh sé amach" as well as "Chuir sí UIRTHI a cóta agus chuaigh sí abhaile". Which is correct?
Also is it "Tabhair an bainne dom" or "Tabhair dom an bainne"?.

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Bodhrán
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Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All the sentences (except the last line involving tabhair) are using the different forms of the preposition "ar," which has the meaning, amongst its other meanings, of "on." That is:

orm = on me

ort = on you

air = on him

uirthi = on her

orainn = on us

oraibh = on you (plural)

orthu = on them

So, I think all the statements that you have above, from the book and from the answer key, are correct.

quote:

Also is it "Tabhair an bainne dom" or "Tabhair dom an bainne"?.



In the back of the book, in the Gaeilge-Béarla section pg 135, you'll find "tabhair dom" (give me), which means "tabhair dom an bainne" is correct.

But I don't know if "tabhair an bainne dom" is incorrect. That is, both may be correct. It's like "give me the milk" or "give the milk to me." Both are correct in English. We'll have to wait for someone more advanced than I to answer this question.

(Message edited by bodhrán on October 19, 2009)

David

Gaeilge ar dtús!
www.irishbooksandgifts.com

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 195
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It seems that "Tabhair dom an bainne" would be clearer if what you mean is "hand me the milk".

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8954
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Chuir sé AIR a chuid éadaigh agus chuaigh sé amach" as well as "Chuir sí UIRTHI a cóta agus chuaigh sí abhaile". Which is correct?



Both. He is masculine, she is feminine.

quote:

Also is it "Tabhair an bainne dom" or "Tabhair dom an bainne"?.



Either. There is a small difference in emphasis, that's all.

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Some confusion here. My question was concerning word order.
Is it "Chuir sé AIR a chuid éadaigh" or
"Chuir sé a chuid éadaigh AIR"?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8957
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh. Either works.
It's a language, there is more than one correct way to say it!

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Bodhrán
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Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Either works.



Can an emphasis be implied, as with the example with tabhair?

Ceiltis ar dtús!
www.irishbooksandgifts.com

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8961
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not sure. I don't see any.

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Bodhrán
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Username: Bodhrán

Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I meant to ask in the more general case of using the preposition "ar." and not necessarily with the verb cuir. That is, can there be an implied emphasis when using "ar" depending on where the direct and indirect objects are positioned in the sentence?

And a follow up question - are there times when using the preposition "ar" (or other prepositions), where one form (as shown in the example above) cannot be used? I'm asking about simple sentences as shown above.

Ceiltis ar dtús!
www.irishbooksandgifts.com

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 197
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 12:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Some confusion here. My question was concerning word order.



I have read that often the prepositional pronouns will be bumped up next to the verb, instead of at the end of the phrase, when the phrase is quite long, the relationship between the verb and pronoun is emphasized, or to avoid confusion. With all the examples, though, they make sense either way. They seem to function the same way in English as well. For example, put on your clothes vs. put your clothes on, etc. A language like German regulates these prepositions more rigorously than either Irish or English do.

quote:

Can an emphasis be implied, as with the example with tabhair?



Would emphasis rather be applied by -sa/-se (or changing tone of voice) instead of changing word order?

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 108
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A little bit off topic but may be of interest to OP. I came across 'cuir ort' as a stand alone order, as in 'get dressed'.. so you can shorten it and leave off the clothes altogether :D Goa

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8963
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Bain díot" a bheadh ann dá mba mhaith leat na headaí a bheith as an áireamh



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