Usually the Irish version is in italics. So this exception caught my eye:

http://aonghus.blogspot.com/2009/10/bearla-iodalach.html

This is a good example of the Irish language coming first and English language taking the back seat for a change. In fact, one could argue that perhaps English should be dropped from the signage completely. Of course, we can then expect the English language proponents to petition for the right to read the sign in English. But, the argument could be made that making the sign in English would cost more money in paint, etc.

I don't know what area of Ireland this signage is in, but this might be a good area to start having government documents in Irish only, with back-seat English translations available only upon special request.

Conas deirtear "Irish First, English Second?" as Gaeilge?

Gaeilge ar dtús, Béarla sa dara?

David

(Message edited by bodhrán on October 17, 2009)

The sign is in a Dublin suburb.

Gaeilge ar dtús, ansin Béarla.

It wouldn't fly, I'm afraid. We have to be much cleverer. (Like whoever is responsible for that sign!)

quote:

In fact, one could argue that perhaps English should be dropped from the signage completely.

I think in signs containing information, as in Aonghus' example, English is necessary but should always be in italics, come after the Irish text and, where space is an issue, simply be a summary of the Irish.

Placenames are a different matter. "Athlone" has no more meaning to an English-speaker than "Áth Luain" so I believe all Anglicised/English placenames should be done away with.
If some ignoramuses insist on mis-pronouncing them, as in the case of Dún Laoghaire ("Done Leery"), so be it :)

S'ea, ta ceart agaibh. I can understand that the government will need to accomodate the English-only speakers, so money will have to be spent to have English translations available also - what a waste of money.

(Message edited by bodhrán on October 17, 2009)

Once we start thinking about accommodating English-only speakers, that'll be the day...

quote:

It wouldn't fly, I'm afraid. We have to be much cleverer. (Like whoever is responsible for that sign!)

Yes! Now that is a nice sign. This is the way that people's minds will change over time. It conveys a message that Irish actually is the first language. And I, having studied Irish for a short time, had no problem understanding what the sign said. But people should understand as well, that in this stage of the game the English helps the Irish. What do we do here all the time -- provide English to aid the learning.

quote:

Placenames are a different matter. "Athlone" has no more meaning to an English-speaker than "Áth Luain" so I believe all Anglicised/English placenames should be done away with.

I agree, but this process too has to be slow as people get acclimated to the new old names. The example in the sign is a good example, Booterstown to Baile an Bhóthair. I think the language act makes great strides in this direction.

Regrettably road signs do not come under the provisions of the act with regards to public signs.

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeilge/Achtnadteangachaoifigiula2003/NaRialachainumA chtnadTeangachaOifigiula2003alt92008/file,9155,ie.pdf

(3) Ní bhaineann na Rialacháin seo leis an méid seo a leanas:

(b) comharthaí tráchta—
(i) lena mbaineann Rialacháin faoi alt 95(2) d’Acht 1961, nó
(ii) lena mbaineann ordachán faoi alt 95(16) den Acht sin,

CnaG is campaigning on this:
http://www.cnag.ie/index.php?page=feachtais&campaign_id=1

Thats great to see Irish coming first on signage, since Irish is the first official language of the country so it makes more sense.

That's good to see. It's also more visually attractive imo.

I've read about the OLA and I'm still not certain about what it covers.

For example, I've seen road signs *within* the Gaeltacht that showed both the English and Irish version of a village. In this case, Gaoth Dobhair/Gweedore. I thought the whole point about the Placenames order was that the English version would have no legal status in the Gaeltacht. What's the point if it doesn't incldue road signs? Am I missing something?

quote:

in respect of a placename in the Gaeltacht, the Irish version of the placename has legal force and effect while the English version of the placename has none.

It's somewhat more complicated than that.

"Legal force and effect" is quite narrow in its meaning.
http://www.acts.ie/en.act.2003.0032.6.html#s33_p1

The relevant article is:
(2) Where the Minister makes a declaration under section 32 in respect of a placename in a Gaeltacht area, the English language version of the placename shall no longer have any force and effect as on and from the operative date but without prejudice to anything done before or after that date including the use of that version other than its use —


(a) in any Act of the Oireachtas passed after the operative date or any statutory instrument made after that date under any Act,


(b) in such maps prepared and published by or with the permission of Ordnance Survey Ireland as may be prescribed, or


(c) on a road or street sign erected by or on behalf of a local authority.


So, if the sign was erected after the order came into effect and by the local authority, it is illegal. If a private person erected the sign, and complied with planning law, it is OK.

The maps referred to are large scale maps used for land registration etc. The Minister is on record as having contacted the various tourist map makers to try and get them to include both names.

My post above referred to regulations under the Act about giving Irish equal or more prominence to English on signage.



Road signs are excluded, because they are covered by separate regulations. Those regulations specify that Irish should be in italic.

Another informative post. GRMA. It seems inconsistent as signage in the Gaeltacht is generally in Irish only and has been since the early 70s, has it not?

Yes, it has. Due to the work of grassroots groups, who painted over the English. But since then (c.f. Dingle) Irish speakers have got more moderate in the Gaeltacht, and English speakers more radical.

It is hard to discuss with someone who has their fingers in their ears and is shouting "Don't force Irish down my throat".

That is why I favour Ó Cuív's Fabian appraoch, which is beginnening to show results. And the mandarins are not happy - which is why the Ministry for Finance (always anti Irish) tried to get his Department dropped and the remaining crumbs for Irish transferred to the Department with a proven record of screwing up when it comes to Irish - education.

That appears not have worked - yet.

Breathnaigh thíos: sean-snáth atá ann.

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/17159.html?1150319921

Agus mé ag cuartú samplaí scríofa 'ní taise' ar Google tháinig mé ar an snáth seo! B'fhéidir go raibh páirt ag 'Neil' ann sa gcomhartha thuas, féach ar an méid a scríobh sé faoin gceantar Blanchardstown.

N'fheadar. Cuid eile ar fad den gcathair atá ansin.

Booterstown! Sorry, I got mixed up with Blanchardstown! Couple of days since I clicked on the link Aonghus. Oops

Beacha i mil, in áit tairbh isteach i siopa poircealláin.

go díreach :)

Some research into the state of road signs in Ireland

http://www.garrettreil.ie/

Thank you for this link. This guy knows what he is talking about!