Seán Ó Riain a sheol seo thart ar ball:



Vótáil ar son na Gaeilge ar an Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9065

Seo nasc níos fearr:

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/

Tugann an nasc thuas go leathanach na dtorthaí tú.

Dar liomsa, is saobh an vótáil seo. Thig leis vótáil níos mó ná uair amháin.

Supposedly this was on Newstalk earlier.

And this from yesterdays Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1015/1224256691411.html

quote:

A Local authority has failed to sell one copy of three different development plans translated into Irish over the past four years after spending over €30,000 to have the documents translated.

quote:

The council yesterday confirmed that during the same period in which no Irish language editions of the plans were sold, a total of 190 copies of the English language editions of the plans were purchased by members of the public.

Madness. I think translation on demand would be preferable. People have the right to read such documents in Irish, there's no question about that in my mind. But translating every single county development plan, every piece of legislation that few read...it's a huge waste. And the same goes for English too. How many people actually read this sort of stuff!? Crazy.

This sort of news is very harmful to the Irish language in general. It's yet another body blow. Headlines more or less screaming "Tens of thousands of Euros wasted on translating documents into Irish that no one reads" will have an effect.

There was another case (Galway?) where no paper copies were sold, but the website with a .PDF report received over 3,000 hits. I can't remember the exact details but surely this is a better alternative? Make the reports available online, with hard copies available upon request.

Tá.

Tá an méid sin ráite leis an té a spreag an tseafóid ón tús, ach is cosúil gur cineál 'Meany' é.

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Make the reports available online, with hard copies available upon request.

They are available online. It took me 3 seconds to find them after I read the report.

190 copies of the English plan were sold. I doubt that covered the cost of printing.

All government documents should be printed in Irish only. That will surely increase the sale and use of documents in Irish. If anyone wants to read them in English, they can request a translation.

Put Irish first, English second. That should balance things out a bit.

There are a few things to see in this. The enemies of the Irish language are the "efficiency" folks. If you wonder what I am talking about in this post, read Jacques Ellul's "Technological Society" (La Technique: L'enjeu du siècle). He lays out quite clearly what, according to my mind, is the stake of the age -- man's loss of true freedom through being conquered by the "technological" mindset. It must be the best method, the most efficient. It must be rational and ordered. It must be quantifiable. Irish will be permitted by these folks as long as it fulfills this criteria. They may even have some love in their heart for the language, but such "waste" etc. And the mound gets built higher when the typical argument is used that "... grants in improving homes for the elderly or people with disabilities ...". This creates in the reader a false choice, because who would reject helping disabled people? In America, we have delightful checkpoints for drunk drivers. These were foisted on the society under the cloak of, "you're not against stopping drunk drivers, right?" It creates a false choice. We are for freedom to travel, and combating drunk driving. We are for the Irish language and for combating government waste, and helping disabled people. These arguments are going to factor in large with the cuts in government budgets. What do you cut? What do you keep? I don't envy their positions.

Back to the mindset, though. The question which all men of good will should be focused on is, what goals are we aiming towards? We want progress, but what are we progressing toward? According to Ellul, technique transforms all into pure means. Meaning that it doesn't matter what the goal is, the goal is the "process". I can say that Ireland is still traditionally minded enough to resist some of this tendency. In the USA, we are almost completely swept away by these tendencies. Anything against it is viewed as "mad" or the people are "kooks". I'm sure a few Irish speakers get the "kook" treatment once in a while.

Plainly said, Irish is "inefficient". Anyone who tries to convince others that it is, therefore it should be supported, is living in fairy tale land. It isn't. It is counter the trend these days. And to try to rationalize Irish as efficient just proves how pervasive the mindset has set in. This mindset views English as the efficient, rational, "modern" language. It is the most applicable -- almost everyone uses it in the world. There are very few squabbles about it -- the standards are pretty well agreed upon. Having the document translated into Irish is inefficient -- double the work, extra expenditures that could help old people, no one reads the things. Educating children in Irish is inefficient.

I guess I am hammering this point. But lovers of Irish should grasp this and love the language apart from these rationals. Is Irish to be considered in the common good of Irish society? I believe yes, fundamentally so. It certainly can be argued well that the language in Ireland contributes to the material welfare of the Irish people. Seeing it on signs, the government acknowledging it through public documents, events, Gaeltachts, etc. The opposite would I think be a sad blow to Irish people. Those who contemplate clearly would see the loss, and many would strive and make a prolonged effort to support the language, as is seen in Celtic areas where the language hasn't fared so well. In a way, the current strength of Irish gives them a position of taking it for granted without their hearts being upset.

The government is placed to support the common good and represent all the citizens of Ireland. Case closed. If they're not doing that, then they're working against that. To make the case for Irish, we should not have resort to accounting balances or comparisons with English. Irish will lose in almost every case. We have to look for an argument completely outside of their mindset, and there Irish is very good.


(PS. I highly recommend Ellul's book, even if you disagree with his thesis. He does shed much light on the overarching trend in humanity today which is hitting hard every facet of society. [Also Fulton Sheen's "Peace of Soul"]. Certainly these are off-topic for Irish, but could help formulate a way to view Irish outside of the "efficiency" crowd who often pose their arguments in the form of the fallacious false dichotomy, I give you only the most recent example of the Lisbon Treaty rerun. Ellul is also not anti-efficiency or anti-technology, but anti them subverting humanity to the detriment of our freedom and true happiness.)

quote:

They are available online. It took me 3 seconds to find them after I read the report.

190 copies of the English plan were sold. I doubt that covered the cost of printing.

Sorry, I meant to say "Make them available only online, with hard copies available on request." There has to be a better way. I've read many of the comments on the Irish Times poll page. Some interesting comments.

One person said Irish is their first language but when they try to read translations it isn't Irish but a chaotic mix of Irish, English words and English transliterated into Irish. Another pointed out that there's no requirement to print Irish versions in the OLA. So long as an Irish version is made available in some form.

And it really should be an Irish original. Not a translation from an English document.

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All government documents should be printed in Irish only. That will surely increase the sale and use of documents in Irish. If anyone wants to read them in English, they can request a translation.

Put Irish first, English second. That should balance things out a bit.

Unworkable. How many politicians have good Irish ffs? We need to be realistic here.

Such methods don't work. They've been tried. The Irish Finance Minister in the early 1920s attempted to gaelicise the Department of Finance. He wanted all documents used internally within the department to be in Irish only. The problem, of course, was that many working within it couldn't speak Irish and couldn't be signing off on documents they didn't understand.


The blame here lies with Clare Co. Council. They spent way too much printing reports that few read. And I include the English version in that. 190 copies? That's tiny. There has to be a better way of doing this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pn=28&lastID=2077 59&subsiteid=356&pollid=9065

32 pages of comments and counting. This is a good thing. It gets people engaging with one another. Some of the posts are predictable. 'Bog language', 'Just use babelfish' etc.

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Wasteful documentation is a problem in any language but on-line availability with downloading as pdf etc reduces any waste substantially, regardless of the language in which it is available, leaving only fairly minor translation costs if it's English to Irish, or in a European context English to German, French to English, French to Greek etc etc. There is also a misapprehension that all documents are to be translated into Irish, in fact only a small percentage of reports are, so the hysterical comparisons between minor translation costs and saving the health care system are slightly misguided.
Caitriona Ireland

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I use Irish as my first language and would love to read government documents in Irish. The problem is that they are not translated to Irish, but to some strange language, with some Irish words, some English words transliterated to Irish, all jumbled up in chaotic fashion, so that the result is incomprehensible.
Jimmy Ireland

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There's a big enough consituency in favour of the Irish language to justify a lot of official publications being published bilingually. But the practice is being brought into disrepute by sometimes being taken to absurd extremes. For documents that will only ever be read by a few hundred people, and which have no direct relevance to the Irish language, and for which there is no compelling consitutional imperative to publish in Irish, it just makes no sense to publish an Irish language version. Even setting aside the economics, the outrage this regularly stirs can't be good for the language's prospects.
Amergin Niue

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Documents should be made available in Irish. The Irish people have decided that this is a bilingual state, through their endorsement of the Irish Constitution. Having said that, the public service should employ a team of translators (or regional teams of translators), who would be paid an annual wage, yet translate a lot lot more. The state needs to internalise translation to reduce costs. There is also a need to begin recruiting public service staff who can draw up their reports in both languages (why is the division of labour necessary?). Also, there needs to be more plain English, plain Irish, and less official waffle in documents... this will make them shorter, cheaper, and easier to read. Annual reports should only be available online... there is no big public demand for them in any language.
Seán Mór Ireland

quote:

Such methods don't work. They've been tried

They said the same thing about flying machines. Things have changed alot since 1920. Ireland is no longer enslaved to England as it had been back then. Everyone studies or has studied Irish in Ireland so everyone in Ireland has the skills to speak it.

There should be a different poll - one on whether English should be used in official documents. The Irish language is always kept on the defensive - it's English's turn to be on the defensive.

Make English the second-class language and keep its proponents always on the defensive.

Séanw - excellent posting above - you've touched on a number of key points that continue to keep the Irish language on the ropes. It would be interesting to see how well English would fare if given the same treatment.

David

"Also, there needs to be more plain English, plain Irish, and less official waffle in documents... this will make them shorter, cheaper, and easier to read."

That is an excellent point, well made.

there needs to be more plain English, plain Irish, and less official waffle

But you can't pass undesireable legislation if it isn't buried in ten levels deep of legalise and double-speak. Long live plain language!

quote:

They said the same thing about flying machines. Things have changed alot since 1920. Ireland is no longer enslaved to England as it had been back then.

Would you wake up please. Your proposal is never going to happen. How about something that has a chance of being implemented? Something that might actually succeed?

I was referring to the Department of Finance in the Irish Free State. The Free State was not 'enslaved' to England at this time. Indeed, there were many more native speakers then than there are now.

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Everyone studies or has studied Irish in Ireland so everyone in Ireland has the skills to speak it.

Wrong. It's not so simple. Many people get exemptions from studying Irish. The numbers rise every year. This includes both children born in Ireland and newcomers.

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There should be a different poll - one on whether English should be used in official documents.

Sure. Watch the results come in at 98%+ in favour. What exactly are you proposing? That the first language of 99% of Irish people be reduced to subservient status in official State legislation in some vain attempt to coerce more people to speak Irish? Let's be honest here. Publishing reports in Irish won't cause people to go out and learn the language. It's for those who already have Irish and want to read in their language of choice. An official language of the State. They have every right to do that!

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Make English the second-class language and keep its proponents always on the defensive.

*Getting excited* Yeah, yeah! But why stop there? How about sending monoglot English speakers to 're-education camps' in Conamara? And fines for anyone who refuses to gaelicise their surname! Yeeaww!

But seriously...

All this talk of pitting one language against the other is ridiculous. 'Second-class language'. It's counterproductive.

If the bulk of Irish people cared about the Irish language, it would have overtaken English by now.

Most Irish people are perfectly comfortable speaking English and nothing but. Fact. Enough excuses. This isn't 1847. No more blaming the English. No one is being prevented from speaking Irish or learning Irish. Actually, all sorts of financial incentives are offered just so people WILL speak it. Use it or lose it, as they say.

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The Irish language movement has not been good at seeking a strategic compromise. It still isn't. The 'all or nothing approach' generally results in nothing in the long run.

In the seventies recruitment policy in the Civil Service went from a position of Irish being compulsory for everybody to Irish being compulsory for nobody. A consequence of three decades of this policy is that it will be very difficult for a lot of state agencies to comply with the provisions of the Official Languages Act 2003: having sufficient people on the staff who can offer a service to Irish speakers is now governed by the laws of probability rather than recruitment criteria.

- Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, Conamara language activist, léachtóir sa GMIT.

Extract from 'Who needs Irish? Reflections on the Importance of the Irish Language Today'
(Essay entitled 'From Language Revival to Survival')

http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/altveritas.htm

I agree with Danny inasmuch as he says that English shouldn't be penalized. English has had a place on the island, and people shouldn't be penalized for English since it isn't immoral or wrong to speak it, and they are not compelled by duty to speak Irish. In other words, they have a right to use the language. But this can't be turned around to penalize the Irish speakers who also have a right, and certainly an immemorial custom. The point I made can be applied to English as well. The pitting of one language against the other in the language wars is very counter productive because it doesn't address the root mentality. People are exhibiting the same behavior when it comes to religion, economy, family life, and other fields of life. Look at the goals, or start formulating them. In my mind the place of English and Irish on the island are headed toward two separate goals. Neither should be despised, but then again English has been given a "handicap" which it is still riding on since the English left most of the country. That is why every public document and act should be in Irish, without penalty against English, if even to show symbolically the place Irish is in the society. The place of the language as a first official language is symbolic. But symbols can become truths, or point to hopes of fruition.

Going back to the article posted about County Clare, that is a red herring. Public documents in general get little play unless there is controversy. It doesn't prove anything about Irish and its position in society.

Bilingualism in Canada is accepted. There may have been groans about it at first, but it's more or less accepted. No one is losing sleep about French labels on the cereal box or legislation printed in both languages. The difference between the two countries is that French was never spoken widely in most of Canada. Unlike Irish, which was once spoken by communities across the island north, south, east and west. And of course there are fluent speakers to be found in all thirty two counties to this day.

So I think people will accept it over time. But can it be done more efficiently? My understanding is that Clare Co. Council was under no obligation to translate and then PRINT the report in Irish. Yet they did. Why? Was there any demand for it? Clearly there wasn't. At least for paper copies.

I'd be interested to know how many of those leaving comments on the Irish Times poll actually avail of services in Irish. How many correspond with their Co. Council in Irish? Or their TD? Do they actually make use of the OLA or do they just like knowing that it's there if they feel like one day taking advantage of its provisions.

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Going back to the article posted about County Clare, that is a red herring. Public documents in general get little play unless there is controversy. It doesn't prove anything about Irish and its position in society.

It's an easy target for sure. Especially in these lean times. But I believe it does tell us something about the place of Irish in society. Or rather it reinforces something we already know. Most Irish people don't speak the language. That's not news. How else can one explain why the English language report sold 190 times more copies than the Irish one? Or that less than 1% of Irish Government web hits were for it's Irish language pages (which are often incomplete, in fairness). Or the miniscule number of households which availed of the Irish language census forms in 2006?

It's important to ensure that the rights of Irish speakers are respected, but at the same time, enacting legislation that reflects the reality on the ground. For example, copies of English and Irish documents shouldn't be produced in equal quantities. The languages shouldn't be treated equally in EVERY SINGLE CASE imo.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 17, 2009)

Bilingualism in Canada is accepted.

A quite recent development. Not so long ago I remember Anglo-Canadians giving out about the French-speaking "fanatics" who refuse to ditch their "lingo" and adopt English - like any sensible person would do.

Irish dare not yield on the document translation issue or else it would undermine its claim to be taken seriously. Admittedly, documents in Irish will have even a less chance of being read that the English version. Even a lot of Gaeil have said that the same resources might be better off employed in the production of Irish books for the general public.

Or maybe these same resources could be employed to produce a user-friendly internet site on which accounts of the events of the day, or the week, would be available in Irish with glossaries, grammatical explanations, introduction to the terminology of differents fields of activity etc. What about introducing people to the various terminologies in sport, for example? And provide clear easy-to-understand native speaker voice versions of the text.

I believe that a lot of want-to-learn-Irish-but-can't-engage-with-it-on-a-continuous-basis-at-the-right- level-for-me people would be crying out for a facility like this if they were aware about it as a possibility.

(Message edited by ormondo on October 17, 2009)

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So I think people will accept [bilingualism] over time. But can it be done more efficiently?

They'll accept it no other way. That's the point I'm making. There is a certain amount of inefficiency built into government currently (always?). Some departments are run by the state because they can run at a loss and not go under, whereas in the private sector they would. Many Irish departments may run at a loss at times, but the common good is the gain perceived. Think about libraries. Could they be run privately for profit? I doubt it could be implemented widely. That's why, at least in the US, almost every library came under the government in one form or another in order that it could run at a loss for the greater common good, and the free service. I'm not advocating that everything become government, far from that, but that certain things could run losses in government, and still be offset by a perceived good.

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How else can one explain why the English language report sold 190 times more copies than the Irish one? Or that less than 1% of Irish Government web hits were for it's Irish language pages (which are often incomplete, in fairness). Or the miniscule number of households which availed of the Irish language census forms in 2006?

The best things in life can't be measured. It doesn't matter how much this or that. The goal of the programs isn't, or shouldn't be, hits on websites, amassing statistics to show off. Couldn't you just force everyone to speak and use it, and not speak or use English, and there you go, we've got a 100% Gaeilge society. Means don't justify the ends. Otherwise, wouldn't numerous websites lose out to say, porno, MySpace, YouTube, and The Daltaí Boards? It's not a popularity game. Not every decision should be formed from a popular trend. Some decisions should be based on goals, ideals, and hopes, which may very well oppose the popular trends.

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Irish dare not yield on the document translation issue or else it would undermine its claim to be taken seriously.

Yes, precedence is set. If you go back, it is worst than the first case. The implementation of the ATO surely needs to be refined, but it is proper to see both an expression of laws and an expression of ideals.

If, for instance, the Clare County Council did indeed translate and print the document out of ideals, and not just to eat up budget so they'll get the same or higher next year, they may very well be praised for that. They are putting the Act into action. Maybe then some Irish would see this as a call to action themselves. But, again, the article doesn't show the whole story. A lot of "reference" items are just referred to, not purchased and read like they're novels, even by other public offices.

If someone shows me where to buy one, I'll buy the stupid thing just to make a point to them!

You can fill out a comment card and mail it to them to express your support for them providing service in Irish:

http://www.clarecoco.ie/Services/Gaeilge/Carta_Aiseolais.pdf

(Message edited by seánw on October 17, 2009)

Just to add, Danny, your arguments don't make complete sense. First you mention bilingualism, but then you mention lack of use of Irish webpages and the Irish version of the census, etc. But bilingualism points to the society having both languages offered, and the citizen having freedom to engage with either without penalizing the other. So it seems you are not talking about bilingualism, but language policy based on statistically measured use.

Keep this in mind when you think of all these statistics: My wife's grandfather was from Leitrim, and he spoke Irish. On the 1911 census none of his 8 siblings were listed as Irish/English, but just English. Yet, he spoke Irish natively. The break in the tradition was that my father-in-law did not continue that. The point is, though, that grand-daddy's household did not account for 8 people's Irish. If it happened then, it is happening now. Stats are not the only thing to factor in!

You said the story "doesn't prove anything about the place of Irish in society". I argue that it does and used some examples. 190 copies sold versus zero. That tells us something... Namely that money was wasted on both the English *and* Irish reports. 190 copies is tiny.

And sure, it's possible that some of the individuals who purchased the report could have read the Irish version with little difficulty, but they didn't.

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They are putting the Act into action. Maybe then some Irish would see this as a call to action themselves.

Sounds like they went above and beyond the Act. An Act which has been around for over five years, I should add. I think most Irish speakers are aware of it by now.

I'm completely opposed to anything which would give up the gains made in recent years vis-à-vis the use of Irish by public bodies, legal status of Irish placenames etc...

That's not an issue for me. The issue is whether or not €30,000 is a reasonable amount for a report that almost nobody read. A report that not a single person purchased. That's obscene. People can make all the excuses they want about it being a small figure in the grand scheme of things, or that a small percentage of the budget is spent on translations anyway, but it's still wastage.

When I talk about people accepting 'bilingualism', I'm referring to those idiots who are completely opposed to Irish translations. There are plenty of examples in the Irish Times comment section. These are the people who lose all sense whenever the subject of Irish comes up. It's not even about €€€ for them. But I think over time most will get used to it. They'll get used to more prominent Irish signage, Irish labelling. That's why I used the Canadian example.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 18, 2009)

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The best things in life can't be measured. It doesn't matter how much this or that. The goal of the programs isn't, or shouldn't be, hits on websites, amassing statistics to show off.

Well it might not matter to you over there in California, but you can be sure it matters to many Irish TAXPAYERS when they read about €30,000 being spent on a report that no one has purchased since it was released four years ago. And who can blame them?

We need to inject a dose of reality into this debate.

I'm not saying don't spend money on translations. Because you know if the Councils weren't required to do them, the money would invariably go to something completely unrelated to Irish. Translations themselves aren't the issue. It's primarily the COST and in some cases, the number of hard copies which are printed regardless of demand.

I'd be interested to know how many page views the online version of the report received. Initially I thought the figure of €30,000 included the cost of printing, but now I'm not sure. The various articles out there don't really tell us much. One say 'not a single copy was REQUESTED [meaning purchased].' Was the €30,000 strictly for the cost of translation?

Danny,

the documents in question form a county development plan.

Such documents are routinely displayed in public libraries and the council offices prior to being adopted.

Most people will be interested in only a small portion - that which affects their area. They are far more likely to download the online version and print out the few pages of interest to them.

Professionals (Builders, engineers etc) may buy a copy - though I'd expect them to use the online version too.

This is an artificial attack on the Official Languages Act, a permutation of a story that is run every six months or so.

Because Irish speakers are reluctant to defend apparent waste, those opposed to any use of Irish rightly perceive the translation of documents as the Achilles Heel of the Act, and lose no opportunity to attack it.

For me, this is a sign that the actual Act is working - Public Bodies are being forced to take Irish into account in a planned, strategic way, because they have had certain duties imposed on them. It should be noted that they get no additional funding to comply with the Act - any cost needs to be met from their existing administrative budgets.

So the juxtaposition of translation and services for old people is a complete red herring. There would not be a farthing available for any other service if the act was repealed tomorrow - it would be absorbed in the general bureaucracy.

That is not to say these duties could not be performed more cost effectively. But that is not down to the Act. The Minister has gone on record many, many times, stating that he does not think such documents should be printed - and that he prefers to get electronic versions.

The Act requires documents which the Public Bodes think are important to be published in Irish. These are the documents the Public Bodies use to communicate to the Public - Plans and Annual Reports.

This clause brings home to the mandarins that Irish is an important factor, not an optional extra.

Danny, it's not the Irish language that has the country in the financial state it is, but the Irish language is perceived as vulnerable and therefore is the first port of call for people - who might want to distract from their inadequacies - looking for scapegoats, or looking for simple-to-explain, but completely disproportionate, red herrings in order to impress upon the general public how zealous they are with regard to "common sense".

(However, I think we should desist from sinking to the level of discussing the mountains of money wasted on junkets alone over the last decades. Has that source of money-wasting at least been stanched in the present crisis?)

seán Hampson
Why is it all documentaion,signage and goverment web sites are not in irish with a link or notice saying availible in other languages upon request.
As a person who's 1st language is english and who's irish is woefully poor i think everything should be in irish and a special request be made for verions in a different language be it english or urdu with a nominal charge attached for the service,people whould soon make more effort with their irish

Bhuel, i bhfianaise go raibh ar an gCeann Comhairle eirí as de bharr ró chaiteachas ar turais thar lear... níl muid ann fós.

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think everything should be in irish and a special request be made for verions in a different language be it english or urdu with a nominal charge attached for the service

Good idea!

I have been inappropriately calling English the second language of Ireland. English should be referred to as one of the many alternate languages along with Urdu, Polish, German, Spanish.

Something like an Alternate Language Act could be enacted giving Irish its long overdue status as the preferred language of Ireland.

Go raibh maith 'ad, a Aonghuis. That was an informative post. And I do remember reading about Ó Cuív saying he encourages people to download reports when possible.

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There would not be a farthing available for any other service if the act was repealed tomorrow - it would be absorbed in the general bureaucracy.

I agree. That's what I was trying to say earlier, but you put it much more eloquently. An Act is needed and it's a good thing it's there, but I think it can be improved and carried out more efficiently and effectively.

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Danny, it's not the Irish language that has the country in the financial state it is, but the Irish language is perceived as vulnerable and therefore is the first port of call for people -

I agree with you 100% Ormondo. Although I don't know of anyone who claims that Irish is largely responsible for the current financial state of the country. But like it or loathe it, people are going to hone in on perceived waste more now than they might have before. But I was encourage to read all the comments in favour of Irish in that poll. Many from Irish speakers themselves who are supportive of the OLA and translations, but who are also opposed to needless waste. Why does it cost €30,000 to translate a county development plan into Irish?

I might just contact Clare Co. Council. I'd be interested to know the following:

- How much did it cost to produce the English original?
- What was the cost for writing it and putting it together? What were the printing costs?
- How many hard copies were printed?
- How many 'manhours' did it take to produce the plan?
- How many hours were put in to translate the plan into Irish?
- How many translators were involved?
- How many times has the development plan been downloaded? How many for the English version? How many for the Irish version?

This sort of information should have been included in the articles.

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Why is it all documentaion,signage and goverment web sites are not in irish with a link or notice saying availible in other languages upon request.

In other words, you mean websites in Irish with a notice in Irish saying "available in other languages upon request"?

Why not?

Probably because most Irish people would be lost if "all documentation, signage and websites" were only in Irish.

Probably because English is the first language of around 98% of Irish people.

Probably because English is also an official language of the Irish State.

And how can you have signage available in other languages upon request? "Excuse me, can you erect a billboard in Malay for me? I don't understand the Irish one."

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As a person who's 1st language is english and who's irish is woefully poor i think everything should be in irish and a special request be made for verions in a different language be it english or urdu with a nominal charge attached for the service,people whould soon make more effort with their irish

See, this is why I say we need to inject some REALITY into the debate. You say your first language is English and that your Irish is "woefully poor", and your "solution" to this is to make everything in Irish!? Are you some kind of masochist? Do you feel guilty because English is your native tongue? Jaysus...

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I have been inappropriately calling English the second language of Ireland. English should be referred to as one of the many alternate languages along with Urdu, Polish, German, Spanish.

Yes, because like Urdu, German, Polish etc...English is a recent arrival to dese shores. An alien tongue, like. Oh wait...

How about this? How about acknowledging that English is one of two LANGUAGES native to Ireland. It has been spoken in Ireland since the 12th century. It is a form of English (actually, multiple forms) that is distinct from anywhere. It has developed organically within Ireland over many years and yes, owes much to the fact that it coexisted alongside Irish. The two languages influenced each other and continue to do so.

English has been the main language spoken in parts of eastern Ireland for over five hundred years. Is that not long enough? Honestly.

I don't think the two languages should be considered adversaries. I don't see how that benefits Irish in the long run.

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Something like an Alternate Language Act could be enacted giving Irish its long overdue status as the preferred language of Ireland.

Oh, I get it. Er...good one! *thumbs up* I assume you aren't being serious. At least I hope so...

The only problem with your idea is that for whatever reason(s), Irish is not the "preferred language of Ireland" and hasn't been in quite some time. No Act in and of itself can change that. It's been tried. Has eighty years taught people nothing? No amount of symbolism, preferential treatment, grants or reactionary, reflexive, Anglophobic, plastic paddy nationalism can change that. Ultimately, only Irish people can do it. Only the bulk of Irish people can reinstate Irish as their language of first choice. Trying to downgrade English won't work. It'll just piss too many English speakers off (meaning, Irish people) and do more harm than good to Irish itself.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 18, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 18, 2009)

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English has been the main language spoken in parts of eastern Ireland for over five hundred years. Is that not long enough?

Frankly, no. The sooner English is reduced to the status of a foreign language, the better.

Danny, you can rant and rave all you want, but that's about all you seem to do around this forum... rant and rave.

Screw the English language.

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That's not an issue for me. The issue is whether or not €30,000 is a reasonable amount for a report that almost nobody read.

Danny, you kind of are making my point, though. You're griping more about government waste, than the attack against the Irish language. It says nothing about the place of Irish in society, or very little. It basically tells us that the work was translated, how many people bought it, and the cost, but the real message is clothed in a fine gown of propaganda. Everybody looks at the finery, and doesn't see the ugly thing covered! The article wants you to gripe about the price tag! Government waste is like stars in the sky these days! The arguement to make available these types of report through less costly means can be made without the below-the-belt blow. Even the theatrical dust blowing picture hits home the message -- waste, dusty, old, outdated, useless, ignored, etc. This dovetails nicely with the poll (almost released at the same time!) asking people if public documents should be mandatory in Irish. Lo and behold, it is a NO majority. But you can vote multiple times!!! The poll is completely useless except to become a spear for either side who wants to mount forces to skew the vote! I'm not saying Seosamh wasn't within rights to post it here, but the two show how the debate is not being engaged in on fair terms.

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Well it might not matter to you over there in California, but you can be sure it matters to many Irish TAXPAYERS when they read about €30,000 being spent on a report that no one has purchased since it was released four years ago. And who can blame them?

Of course it matters to me. I have relatives in Ireland, and in general I am against government waste wherever it rears its ugly head. I was trying to expore the idea that this is about more than €30k.

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This is an artificial attack on the Official Languages Act, a permutation of a story that is run every six months or so. ... That is not to say these duties could not be performed more cost effectively. But that is not down to the Act.

Exactly! It's like a talking point brought up every once in a while. This kind of stuff is pulled on many topic, and usually uses the same fallacious methods -- false dilemmas and all his buddies.

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Screw the English language.

Is aisteach an ráiteas seo, i mBéarla!!!

(Message edited by seánw on October 19, 2009)

(Message edited by seánw on October 19, 2009)

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The sooner English is reduced to the status of a foreign language, the better.

That isn't possible because English isn't a foriegn language in Ireland. The only way of putting English in the foriegn language category is to take it away from being the 2nd official language but Ireland can't do that because English is the working language...

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English has been the main language spoken in parts of eastern Ireland for over five hundred years. Is that not long enough? Honestly.

The areas where English has been the main language for over 500 years are very limited - Dublin city and its hinterland and south Wexford.
Also, the dialects spoken in north Co. Dublin and south Wexford - 'Fingallian' and 'Yola' - would have been more or less unintelligible to speakers of standard English.

Getting this message out is actually quite important. There seems to be a lot of people out there (I don't include Danny in this) who think that Irish has been dead and gone in vast swathes of the country since the arrival of the Normans! - "Why should I bother with Irish, my ancestors have probably been English speakers since the middle ages".

James,
This is an important message too. I mentioned my wife's family before. They're from Leitrim. The Irish tradition in this family was broken with my father-in-law. But my aunt-in-law has Irish. She's a nun, so there won't be any babies there, but she does teach. But the family's been without Irish for about five years now. They moved to Dublin in the twenties. So even though they had English before then, it wasn't their main language until they hit Dublin, and even then the language didn't fall out of prominent use until a few years ago. With my wife's family it is a complex issue. It wasn't simply because they moved to Dublin. It had a lot to do with "status", psychological hang-ups, and the teaching methods of the time, etc. etc. So it isn't so black and white as often portrayed.

In my family's case there's a reasonably recent history of Irish-speaking too.
Surprisingly recent for Wexford which I think many would consider one of the most anglicised of counties - it is, after all, the place where ould Strongbow et al. first set foot on Irish soil:)
According to my mother her grandmother had some knowledge of Irish, remembered from childhood.
Not just vocabulary either but various phrases etc.
Presumably her parents and grandparents must have had a reasonable familiarity with the language to have passed some on to her but considering the period of her youth - the mid to late 19th century - it's all too clear why they made the choice to ensure she grew up an English speaker rather than an Irish speaker.

(Message edited by James_Murphy on October 19, 2009)

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The sooner English is reduced to the status of a foreign language, the better.

Screw the English language.

Now THAT'S funny!

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You're griping more about government waste, than the attack against the Irish language. It says nothing about the place of Irish in society, or very little. It basically tells us that the work was translated, how many people bought it, and the cost, but the real message is clothed in a fine gown of propaganda.

Again, I disagree. Firstly, how is it an 'attack' on Irish? Do you dispute the main facts as presented in the various articles which have appeared in the newspapers? Namely that no one has purchased the Irish report in the four years that it's been available, and that it cost €30,000 to translate it into Irish? I could just as easily say that you're griping more about a perceived attack (ie. anything 'negative') than the fact ZERO PEOPLE purchased the Irish language version of a report which cost €30,000 to translate. Zero people, Seán.

Are newspapers barred from reporting anything 'negative' about Irish? Is it to be all sunshine and rainbows? Because I can just as easily direct you to many articles in the Irish Times, Irish Independent, Irish Examiner, Belfast Telegraph ETC ETC which are extremely POSITIVE about the current state of Irish. The growth of Irish-medium education, the confidence and assertiveness of the Irish language community in Northern Ireland, the innovative programmes on TG4 etc. It's a mixed bag. Just like real life.

Yes, the image used by the Indo was a cheapshot. But that's the Irish Independent. The Indo is a RAG. Of all the main papers, it's the most 'anti' the Irish language. There's no doubt about it. I've said it many times before. I can't stand the Indo and how they disrepect Irish by refusing to use something as simple as the fada.

The poll you refer to was actually an Irish Times poll. Completely different.

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This dovetails nicely with the poll (almost released at the same time!) asking people if public documents should be mandatory in Irish. Lo and behold, it is a NO majority. But you can vote multiple times!!! The poll is completely useless except to become a spear for either side who wants to mount forces to skew the vote! I'm not saying Seosamh wasn't within rights to post it here, but the two show how the debate is not being engaged in on fair terms.

So a NO majority surprises you? Is that it? It doesn't surprise me, to be honest. As far as mounting forces to skew the vote, the only organisation that I'm aware of that was herding people to the poll was an Irish language organisation. I can forward you a copy of their email that was sent out if you wish.

How would you reframe the debate so it's more 'fair'?

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The areas where English has been the main language for over 500 years are very limited - Dublin city and its hinterland and south Wexford.

I agree, although it's possible places like Kildare and small bits of eastern Ulster were also mostly English speaking too. We don't know for certain.

My point is just that English is unfairly characterised as a 'foreign' language by some in Ireland. I think that's innacurate. English has been a community language in Ireland for over eight hundred years. Period. The fact that Irish is an older language and was spoken 'first' (and by more people for most of the recorded history on the island) doesn't change that. I consider both languages to be native to Ireland at this point. Indeed, the number of Irish people who consider Gaeilge 'alien' to them is increasing, sadly.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on October 19, 2009)

"the image used by the Indo was a cheapshot"

In fact, that image was used in all the papers, including the Irish Times. Which makes the whole thing look like a deliberately staged campaign.

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Firstly, how is it an 'attack' on Irish? Do you dispute the main facts as presented in the various articles which have appeared in the newspapers?

Old people contribute less to society. They use up resources, perhaps more than they contributed over their work life. These are facts. Should we now institute eugenics euthenasia boards to save some ducats? Well, if your world view is that people are here to be work horses, and then to move on to be worm-feed, then perhaps that makes sense. But is that the true purpose of humans? A reflection then on the facts persented would see that it is not about facts, but about creating a vehicle to deliver a message.

Now Irish ... what is the purpose of the language in Ireland? It is clear from the founders of the nation and the time since that the emphasis is on preserving Irish as a living language in Ireland. It is valued for more than just "working", that is, being a workhorse for commerce. For some it brings enjoyment, for others communication, for others fun or fascination, etc. It is multi-dimensional, as multi-dimensional as elderly people are. The article was skewed because it took that and tried to cram it into a one-dimensional box, and labeled it "waste" on the outside. Just contemplate that an attack is more powerful if it is true, because it is harder to defeat. How do you dispute the statistics? You lose credibility if you deny waste, you deny that no one bought the thing. But that's the trick, you are brought onto their playing field and allowing them to set the agenda of the debate. One side has the advantage. This is classic "combat" strategy!

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How would you reframe the debate so it's more 'fair'?

First thing, don't even address the government waste in terms of language. It has nothing to do with language. Government waste can be address on its own terms, across every government department. Second, if one wants to debate government documents in Irish, first debate whether anyone wants government documents at all. Do you want them on deposit at a library for public viewing? On a website? Available for sale on demand? Third, if the government bodies are not going to provide documents in Irish, then my thought is Irish society needs to have a HUGE debate about what they want. Do Irish speakers have a right to be communicated with in their own language even if they have knowledge of English? Is there a public good to be had in providing this service, which outways monetary investment?

I think these debates have already been made, though, and that is why you have signs in Irish, documents in Irish, and schooling in Irish. It wasn't like that before in some places, and was less widespread in others.

If no one bought the newspapers, would they then be convinced that the newspaper in society was worthless? I doubt it. Facts do not guarantee an honest debate. Facts are often used to support ulterior motives.

Maybe they should just split up the 30k and distribute it to the citizens of Ireland as an Irish language "stimulus" check.

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Is there a public good to be had in providing this service, which outways monetary investment?

A service which wasn't used, in this particular case. To me, that's waste and the media was well within its right to bring attention to it.
To others, it's all part of a massive anti-Irish conspiracy.

The newspapers could have done done a better job of covering it, however. The Indo headline is trash. "Lost in translation as council blows €30,000". That's sleazy.

The English version was 190 times more 'popular'. I find that unsettling.

In the articles it quotes a spokeswoman from Conradh na Gaeilge.

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“It is very important that the documents are available in Irish as well as English. It is everyone’s right that documents like these are available in Irish.”

No shit. And I support that right 100%. But what are the chances this is being repeated in County Councils across the country? Zero copies sold here, a handful there. How many?

I wonder if the OLA has even resulted in more people conducting their business through Irish where possible?

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I wonder if the OLA has even resulted in more people conducting their business through Irish where possible?

It has. When the services are properly put in place, and advertised. Donegal Co. Co., for example, saw a massive rise in people doing business in Irish in the office near the Gaeltacht - beacuse people had confidence that they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to business in Irish.

But this is a slow process, because people have had years of experience that services in Irish didn't work.

As I said, the printing of documents which nobody buys (beacuse they are available free online) has nothing to do with the Act, and everything to do with the mindset the act was trying to change "we've always done it this way"

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A service which wasn't used, in this particular case.

You don't know that. You just know that there weren't any paper copies purchased. Again, I refer you to previous posts of mine, because the method is working on you. You have only the information they present to you, and through mental fabrication complete the picture to compensate for the information they didn't give you. This article tells us very little about the situation, and that is my greatest objection to it. In my opinion, it tells us just enough to form the perception that was intended. I would have much more respect for an exposé like this if it actually hinted of good journalism.

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To me, that's waste and the media was well within its right to bring attention to it. To others, it's all part of a massive anti-Irish conspiracy.

I just put two and two together. Irish Times poll coinciding with Irish Times article. Similar article by the same fellow in the Independent (and Examiner) with same perception influencing photograph. It may not be blatantly anti-Irish, it may not be a "conspiracy", but it sure hints of coordination. Even if the article was a "wire" article that everyone decided to pick up, the articles and the poll stink of propaganda, not reporting. It could have been a positive article. I would still object.

I'm not against addressing negative news items, or realities. I don't think it is always useful, though, and overly focusing on such things takes time away from ... Irish. I would rather spend time talking in Irish instead of talking about Irish. I find more use in studying, learning, and spreading the Irish language. The news items and statistical minutiae are not the central focus. This is my last post on this, so feel free to have the last word if you want.

But we NEED the 'statistical minutiae' to balance out all the grammatical minutiae on this board! :p

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When the services are properly put in place, and advertised. Donegal Co. Co., for example, saw a massive rise in people doing business in Irish in the office near the Gaeltacht - beacuse people had confidence that they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to business in Irish.

I'm very glad to hear this. Do you have any sources for this? Not because I don't believe you, but because I'd be interested to read more about the effects of the OLA six years on. I wonder what the situation is like in places far away from the gaeltacht? Whether an urban area like Dublin or a more rural region far from any gaeltachtaí. Say, Laois or Leitrim.

I read a report once, but I haven't been able to find it online.

As usual, it comes down to competent people providing the service.

I suggest you read the Commissioners Reports - I think the level of issues dealt with is an indication of how many people are trying to do business. Obviously, what makes it into the reports is when the system fails - but that is the only "statistical minutiae" I know of.

The seven counties with official Gaeltachts along with Dublin should have fully bilingual County Council and City Council offices along with annual bilingual accounts and reports because they have a significant body of speakers. Having documents translated into Irish for counties like Leitrim or Longford or the like doesnt seem to make much sense the amount of Irish speakers in counties like them is so small that it does not justify translation and is only another stick by the English language media and speakers to beat us with. I also oppose a language Act for the North as apart from West and South Belfast and Carn Tóchair in Derry which should as of right have fully bilingual services available as they have significant numbers and the language is a community language there.

Leitrim is a bad example, as I'm sure Seosamh will tell you.

There is a particularly active group there.

http://www.glorchluainin.com/

BTW, it is the gaeltacht counties and Dublin that the Department has focussed on in terms of looking for schemes under the act.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2004-10-05.174.0

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An interesting side-effect of the Act is that people have suddenly become aware of printing costs. We all see beautiful glossy magazines and photographs which cost us a fortune. Many publications are way too comprehensive. In my experience, one gets so much material each week that there is only one place for most of it, that is, in one’s little wastepaper basket. That is an issue which concerns us all. As part of the implementation of the Act — it is an issue we will discuss — we must all look at practical ways to save costs on behalf of the State.

Éamon Ó Cuív in 2004.

Maith agat a hAonghuis,nach bhfuil Glórchlúinín go hiontach? Ní fhaca mé an suigh seo roimhe sin.Rugadh mo seanathair i Moigheall in aice Cluainín Uí Ruairc.Proinsias O Ruairc b'ainm dó.Is Liatroim gaeilge influenced by Ulster,even though tis in Connacht?