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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through October 20, 2009 » Munster's Wall « Previous Next »

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 463
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 10:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been trying to find examples of transitional dialects for Munster Irish. Or do they even exist?

This all comes from a question my niece of 7 asked me the other day. I have been working with her with that "Basic Irish For Parents." I was showing her a map of Ireland and telling her that in the south they speak Munster Irish.

She asked a valid question that I have never really thought of myself, "How far up do they speak it?"

And it got me thinking...I know a person can easily find which counties and cities fall under the umbrella of Munster Irish. But is it really that black and white? If you fall on this side of the line you speak Munster, and if you fall on that side of the line you do not?

When there are two linguistic influences next to each other there is normally some type of buffer or transition zone that we can easily see elements of both languages separately or being used at the same time.

The only example I have heard about are in some Mayo dialects which show elements of both Connacht and Ulster Irish. But Mayo, is in the middle of Connacht and Ulster, and they are relatively close to each other, it is easy to see how this came about.

But what about Munster?

Are there any dialects with traits of both Munster and Connacht? There isn't really an Irish in the middle so to speak. You have Clare and nothern Tip...so maybe there are, or were, some here?

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on October 11, 2009)

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 378
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I imagine it's a case of 'were'. There *were* dialects showing a blend of Connacht and Munster features. And it's not a matter of which side of the line one falls on, so to speak, since there's no longer gaeltachtaí anywhere in north Munster nowadays.

Perhaps Wagner's Linguistic Atlas and Survey of Irish dialects from the 1960s has the answer? I bet someone like Lughaidh would know.

Wagner carried out research in multiple locations in both north Clare and the far southwest of the county, for example.
http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-7-irl.gif

North Tipp hasn't been Irish speaking in many, many generations. Even in the mid-19th century this was the case.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1155
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To get a feel for what Clare Irish is/was like without combing through dialect books: read Cúirt an Mheán Oíche aloud and make it rhyme.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 464
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yeah, I had the sad feeling that was the case in Clare. I ran into a older man from Clare when I was driving about who claimed the ability to speak the language. But in truth, we never really got into it. Clare isn't a county that screams Irish speaking to me. Now having said that, I reserve the right to be wrong if there are any Clare natives who might take offense ;-).

I was hoping that it's middle location might help a little.

Perhaps, in the case of Munster, I should be looking more the the transition of Munster Irish to Gaelscoil Irish? For example, find a school in the Munster region not officially associated with a Gaeltacht that teaches Irish and see if there are any influences there...

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 425
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have a book that teaches Clare Irish its very interesting if you are interested in Irish dialectology, one of the examles that I remember of Clare ''acu'' was prononced /acab/ same as Connemara.

Appearntley there is still some native speakers in Clare, a friend of mine told me once he met a native Irish speaker from there a few years ago.

Gaeilge go deo!

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 465
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well it is not so much an interest in Irish dialectology, it's more of an interest in where the lines are drawn these days.

I mean just about all learning sources out there will tell a person that there are three main regional groupings of Irish. (Munster in the south, Connacht in the west, Ulster in the north).

What I am curious to know is if I were to take an example of something that was textbook Munster Irish, and go into any region that falls under the Munster region...could they associate with my Irish example.

Or would my Munster Irish example be limited to the Gaeltachts that specifically identify with Munster Irish?

That sort of thing.

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 768
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What I am curious to know is if I were to take an example of something that was textbook Munster Irish, and go into any region that falls under the Munster region...could they associate with my Irish example.


Níl ann ach slí amháin le fáisnéis a fháil faoi.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 379
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Any pamphlets or Irish related material that I've ever read almost always refer to the various Gaeltachtaí in Munster as a whole, rather than counties. So instead of Kerry Irish, Cork Irish, Waterford Irish, Clare, Limerick etc...the focus is on the three main living Gaeltachtaí. Namely Corca Dhuibhne, Múscraí agus Gaeltacht na Rinne. And usually in that order.

A lot of the time Uíbh Ráthach and Cléire don't even get a mention.

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 49
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 06:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Judged by the number of references to Places in Tipp one finds in old songs i nGaeilge ,I'd say the tongue was pretty strong there up til the famine years and beyond maybe.At one of the B&Bs in Cléire the lady speaks Irish if you show any interest - O Lionnaird's by name.She soon wandered far beyond my limited competence,in fact, rather embarrassing!

The other B&B is run by a nice South African lady.The An Oige hostel is staffed by a guy from Wexford and his Devon born wife.They are learning Irish,so credit where tis due.

Like other posters I too have a friend who claims to have met a Clare Gaeilgoir,though it was in the 70s.

PS there was a diary by a man called O Súilleabháin,early 1800s? All in Irish and he was living in Tipperary.Ní cuimhin liom a hainm Críostaí.Aonghus or Lughaid,Danny ,Trig I bet somebody knows!

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 380
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 01:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The An Oige hostel is staffed by a guy from Wexford and his Devon born wife.They are learning Irish,so credit where tis due.


A nice couple. They were quite helpful when I stayed there. I believe the wife goes by Sinéad, although that's not her birth name IIRC. I heard some of the kitchen staff in An Siopa Beag using Irish when I was on the island.

quote:

PS there was a diary by a man called O Súilleabháin,early 1800s


You may be referring to Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin (Humphrey O’Sullivan). If so, this particular man was born in Kerry in the 1780s and during his life was based primarily in west Kilkenny, right near the border with Tipperary. Irish was still spoken quite widely in the southern half of Kilkenny in the 1820s and 30s (and in south Tipp). I wonder if his diaries show any Leinster Irish features or if he was already an adult when he left Munster? That's something I'd like to find out.

quote:

His diary, the Cín Lae Amhlaoibh, was kept between 1827 and 1835. It remains one of the most important sources for 19th century Irish life and one of the few surviving works from the perspective of the peasantry.

His original manuscript is currently in the possession of the Royal Irish Academy. A translation by Tomás de Bhaldraithe, was published by Mercier Press in 1979.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhlaoibh_Ó_Súilleabháin

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/library/services/book-promos/classics/diaryman. htm

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 02:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maith agat a Dhónal.Yes Risteard agus Sinéad(Janet),good people.I was there August 08,my second visit.An Siopa Beag had a guy from Yorkshire - I think.But it's still owned by a local family.Alas,Conchúr O Drisceoil,who used to skipper the ferry has passed away.He refused to speak as Béarla and would listen patiently to anyone who tried their Gaeilge on him.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 381
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 05:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd like to go back. I was there in June 2005. Do you know when Conchúr Ó Drisceoil died? I seem to recall seeing a commemorative billboard when I was visiting the island.

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 382
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 06:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One thing I find interesting about island communities in Ireland is the cluster of surnames. It seemed like every other person on Cleíre was an Ó Drisceoil and every other person on Inis Meáin was either an Ó Fátharta or an Ó Conghaile.

In the case of Cléire it's not at all surprising as the sept controlled the island plus Inis Earcáin (Sherkin), Baltimore on the mainland etc...

Sorry to drift off-topic.

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 352
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 07:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I recently bought a book - which I have yet to read - called "Seanchas Chléire" which contains the reminisces, knowledge of folklore and traditions etc. of an islander called Conchobhar Ó Síothcháin 1866-1941.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 520
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 06:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do_chinniúint,

have you ever listened to this programme from the RnaG archives?

"Na Cainteoirí dúchais deireanacha i gCo. an Chláir."

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-220309-29m24s-rileannaagusteipeanna2.mp 3

It has been a few months since I listened to it myself, but if I remember correctly, Ian Lee was of the opinion that there was a very noticeable connection between Déise Irish and Clare Irish. (He noted, however, that one of the speakers, Anraoi de Bláca, had a strong Aran Islands influence in his speech, but that could have been acquired and not "native", as such). If that is the case - i.e. that there was a connection between Déise Irish and Clare Irish - then there must have been a contiguous area connecting both regions - maybe Co. Limerick was the connecting area, and from there across South Tipp to Waterford.

The last native Irish speakers in South Tipp died out in the 20th century. In the census of 1911 there are rural areas around Clonmel, for example, where there were clusters of bilingual families.

Waterford and South Tipp have similar accents in English today. Listening to the Doegen tapes http://www.uni-due.de/DI/Dialects.htm of old Waterford and Tipperary (South, I am presuming) speakers I found the the similarity between the Irish and English accents quite interesting.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Róman_anonymous (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Clare and eastern Galway - both dead now - have been transitional dialects. Of those still alive: Aran Island have some curious mix of both Munster and Connacht features, especially Inis Oirr.

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 51
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 09:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Danny,I'm pretty sure Conchúr was my fear a bhata in Aug 2004.Another nice man who died around the same time was Niall Cosgrove.A fluent speaker who lived on Cléire for years and very helpful.My sons tell me there are words found only on the island.Ach - rinne siad dearmad ar na focail!

Back on topic -mo leithscéal - how about the poetry of Dáibhi O Bruadair agus Seán Clárach Mac Dónail? Both from North Cork/limerick border.Of course we can't know for sure what it would sound like.



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