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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through October 07, 2009 » Prepositions and sing. article in Conamara Irish « Previous Next »

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 52
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm okay with the caighdeán rules on this one I think but I'm a bit fuzzy on the Conamara usage here and just wanted to double-check this..
does eclipsis follow after a preposition and the sing. article 'an' after all simple prepositions, even in the case of den don and sa? Is there eclipsis on all letters (incl. d t and s) apart from vowels? Or are there exceptions about?

I reckon I should get this one knocked on the head once and for all!

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 135
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

From my studies, eclipsis is the use in all cases in Conamara (as in Munster). There is also use of eclipsis with d and t. My books, however, give the word "often", so I don't know if this applies to older speakers, or certain contexts, or certain areas. Perhaps BrídMór could give you definitive data for her area.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 53
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cheers Seanw!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 759
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But eclipsis is not the rule in all cases in Munster! As Sinéad says, den, don, and sa are exceptions. (At least in West Cork; I believe the rules are slightly different for West Kerry.)

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 54
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hm I did read that in Kerry Irish 'den' isn't used at all, and 'don' is used for both instead, with eclipsis following. And I was glad to know that cause when I read something by a Munster writer I knew why he didn't write 'den' where I had expected it.

It's something with lots and lots of variations and it seems that Conamara is the most straightforward of all the dialects when it comes to this, so yay!

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 136
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Domhnaillín,
I'm running off of books, so I don't know this from personal knowledge. Sinead is from Munster (I think?), so she has exposure to that usage. What I meant is all cases sometimes or "often" as I once read.

In another thread someone said "In Kerry Irish 'den' and 'don' can sometimes cause eclipsis and if so they don't prefix "t-" to "s-"."

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/26464.html?1183410271

Lars says, Eclipsis is used:

"after a preposition with an article sa (in Connacht always, in Munster only by f, in the standard/Ulster, lenition)"

&

"after the prepositions ag, ar, as, le, mar, ó, faoi, roimh, thrí, thar, um if with the article an: (in Munster always, in Connacht by d, t no eclipsis as well as a t-prefix preceding s by femin. nouns)

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/eklipse.htm

I welcome correction at any time because I don't want to mislead anyone, though! Thanks!

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 426
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Conamara is the most straightforward of all the dialects


Most straightforward? :-)

There's eclipsis (except d and t, and except den, don followed by lenition)
but there's t prefixed to nouns beginning with s (except masculine ones).
That's not really straightgforward but a mix of eclipsis and lenition (t-prefix is a form of lenition) and no change at all.

Compare with:
Tír Chonaill: lenition and nothing but lenition (and so t prefixed to masculine and feminine nouns beginning with s as usual after the article form anL)
Corca Dhuibhne: eclipsis and nothing but eclipsis (OK: except sa. And of course t prefixed to any noun beginning with s after sa)

That is straightforward!

Lars

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 328
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Hm I did read that in Kerry Irish 'den' isn't used at all, and 'don' is used for both instead, with eclipsis following. And I was glad to know that cause when I read something by a Munster writer I knew why he didn't write 'den' where I had expected it.



Hmm, I read (in Learning Irish) that in Conamara both den and don are pronounced /gəN/ and cause lenition in the same places (not to mention both prefixing t to feminine nouns beginning with an s and optionally to masculine nouns beginning with an s).

And then, gan has the same pronunciation /gəN/ but different rules...

I always pronounce them /d'eN/, /doN/, and /gaN/ in my head for spelling purposes and say them all /gəN/ out loud.

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 55
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh fantastic that's a great help- I didn't know about those few exceptions for Connacht Irish and while it's not as straightforward as I had been thinking when compared to the caighdeán it still is! haha :)

I've a quick question though about what you posted Lars- in Connacht Irish does the t-prefix go on all fem. nouns starting with 's' or just that special group of s nouns?

And in Corca Dhuibhne is it just f nouns that get the eclipsis after Sa, and the rest get lenition after sa is it?

Seanw- I'm not from Munster but had exposure to munster Irish ar scoil :)

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 417
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Donegal, sa prefixes T to every word sith S regardless of gender.

Gaeilge go deo!

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 427
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

when compared to the caighdeán it still is! haha :)


The only difference in the Caighdeán is lenition following sa.
And lenition is optional after the other prepositions (ag, ar, faoi, ...) and article.
quote:

I've a quick question though about what you posted Lars- in Connacht Irish does the t-prefix go on all fem. nouns starting with 's' or just that special group of s nouns?


All feminine nouns with s + vowel or s + l,n,r + vowel.
(the same without preposition: an tsráid / ar an tsráid.)
quote:

And in Corca Dhuibhne is it just f nouns that get the eclipsis after Sa, and the rest get lenition after sa is it?


Yes. (Dunno if it's a real eclipsis or just a glide-[w] between two vowels.)
Standard (and Ulster): san fharraige, Dingle (and Conamara): sa bhfarraige.

Lars

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 56
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cheers for the tip re. pronunciation of den don and gan Breandán. I'm surprised D sound survived at all in Conamara!

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 57
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as I know Trig that rule re. t-prefix going in front of s nouns applies to prepositions and sing. article across the board (going by MacMurchaidh pg. 58 5.4.2) but just on that select group of s nouns.

(Message edited by sineadw on September 28, 2009)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3205
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As Trigger said, in Ulster, ts- in all cases after prep.+an+, except of course those who never have "t-" (like sp, sm, st, sc...)

ar an tsneachta
sa tsaol
ag an tsluaigh
ar an tsráid
...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Sineadw
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Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 59
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yep I was thinking it wasn't just for Sa.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 140
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sinéad,
Perhaps my original statement was too hasty. The source I used seems to be making an overly broad statement. They say (Speaking Irish, pg. 50):

"In standard Irish nouns following den, don, and sa are lenited rather than eclipsed, for example, an chuid eile den bhliain, seirbhís don phobal, san bhaile. Connacht and Munster Irish don’t follow these rules, however, as is obvious from these examples from the interviews: an-chóngarach don mbaile, cuide den gclainn, and sa ngeimhread."

Looking over the text of the speakers, though, seems to only prove this statement with the Munster speakers and not the Connacht speakers.

On the other hand there is this text from Modern Irish (Ó Siadhail), pg. 127:

"In broad terms it can be said that there is lenition in Donegal and that in Conamara and Munster there is eclipsis. However, this statement must be qualified. Firstly, in Donegal lenition seems to be employed consistently. In Conamara the rule is generally eclipsis; however, eclipsis is blocked before d and t. Following the two prepositions do ‘to’ /gə/ and de ‘of, off’ /gə/ lenition is the rule …"

Still in other places it says that d and t will also be eclipsed! I hope this helps, though. Perhaps Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail has some clear guidelines for Conamara that one could follow.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 428
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Still in other places it says that d and t will also be eclipsed!


In Munster.

Lars

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Sineadw
Member
Username: Sineadw

Post Number: 63
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have got immense help from people on this thread on this, before this I had a bit here and a bit there! I'm making out a table for myself sometime soon with it all together just to help my memory.

Yep I agree with you about that quote from 'Speaking Irish'- it's a litle bit misleading re. den and don in Conamara which actually get lenition, but thankfully we have all the differences contained within the dialects now, buíochas le Dia!

I did look through O'Siadhail and missed that- I have a different issue to you though I think as the pg. numbers don't match up with mine, but thanks for the quote. It's a good summary.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 01:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I have a different issue to you though I think as the pg. numbers don't match up with mine.



If this helps: Section 6.2.4(iv).

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.



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