Author |
Message |
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 52 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:28 pm: |
|
I'm okay with the caighdeán rules on this one I think but I'm a bit fuzzy on the Conamara usage here and just wanted to double-check this.. does eclipsis follow after a preposition and the sing. article 'an' after all simple prepositions, even in the case of den don and sa? Is there eclipsis on all letters (incl. d t and s) apart from vowels? Or are there exceptions about? I reckon I should get this one knocked on the head once and for all! |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:58 pm: |
|
From my studies, eclipsis is the use in all cases in Conamara (as in Munster). There is also use of eclipsis with d and t. My books, however, give the word "often", so I don't know if this applies to older speakers, or certain contexts, or certain areas. Perhaps BrídMór could give you definitive data for her area. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 53 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
|
Cheers Seanw! |
|
Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 759 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
|
But eclipsis is not the rule in all cases in Munster! As Sinéad says, den, don, and sa are exceptions. (At least in West Cork; I believe the rules are slightly different for West Kerry.) |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 54 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:10 pm: |
|
Hm I did read that in Kerry Irish 'den' isn't used at all, and 'don' is used for both instead, with eclipsis following. And I was glad to know that cause when I read something by a Munster writer I knew why he didn't write 'den' where I had expected it. It's something with lots and lots of variations and it seems that Conamara is the most straightforward of all the dialects when it comes to this, so yay! |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:49 pm: |
|
Domhnaillín, I'm running off of books, so I don't know this from personal knowledge. Sinead is from Munster (I think?), so she has exposure to that usage. What I meant is all cases sometimes or "often" as I once read. In another thread someone said "In Kerry Irish 'den' and 'don' can sometimes cause eclipsis and if so they don't prefix "t-" to "s-"." http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/26464.html?1183410271 Lars says, Eclipsis is used: "after a preposition with an article sa (in Connacht always, in Munster only by f, in the standard/Ulster, lenition)" & "after the prepositions ag, ar, as, le, mar, ó, faoi, roimh, thrí, thar, um if with the article an: (in Munster always, in Connacht by d, t no eclipsis as well as a t-prefix preceding s by femin. nouns) http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/eklipse.htm I welcome correction at any time because I don't want to mislead anyone, though! Thanks! I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 426 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 02:53 pm: |
|
quote:Conamara is the most straightforward of all the dialects Most straightforward? :-) There's eclipsis ( except d and t, and except den, don followed by lenition) but there's t prefixed to nouns beginning with s ( except masculine ones). That's not really straightgforward but a mix of eclipsis and lenition (t-prefix is a form of lenition) and no change at all. Compare with: Tír Chonaill: lenition and nothing but lenition (and so t prefixed to masculine and feminine nouns beginning with s as usual after the article form an L) Corca Dhuibhne: eclipsis and nothing but eclipsis (OK: except sa. And of course t prefixed to any noun beginning with s after sa) That is straightforward! Lars |
|
Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:05 pm: |
|
quote:Hm I did read that in Kerry Irish 'den' isn't used at all, and 'don' is used for both instead, with eclipsis following. And I was glad to know that cause when I read something by a Munster writer I knew why he didn't write 'den' where I had expected it. Hmm, I read (in Learning Irish) that in Conamara both den and don are pronounced /gəN/ and cause lenition in the same places (not to mention both prefixing t to feminine nouns beginning with an s and optionally to masculine nouns beginning with an s). And then, gan has the same pronunciation /gəN/ but different rules... I always pronounce them /d'eN/, /doN/, and /gaN/ in my head for spelling purposes and say them all /gəN/ out loud. |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 55 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:47 pm: |
|
Oh fantastic that's a great help- I didn't know about those few exceptions for Connacht Irish and while it's not as straightforward as I had been thinking when compared to the caighdeán it still is! haha :) I've a quick question though about what you posted Lars- in Connacht Irish does the t-prefix go on all fem. nouns starting with 's' or just that special group of s nouns? And in Corca Dhuibhne is it just f nouns that get the eclipsis after Sa, and the rest get lenition after sa is it? Seanw- I'm not from Munster but had exposure to munster Irish ar scoil :) |
|
Trigger
Member Username: Trigger
Post Number: 417 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:54 pm: |
|
In Donegal, sa prefixes T to every word sith S regardless of gender. Gaeilge go deo!
|
|
Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 427 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:18 pm: |
|
quote:when compared to the caighdeán it still is! haha :) The only difference in the Caighdeán is lenition following sa. And lenition is optional after the other prepositions (ag, ar, faoi, ...) and article. quote:I've a quick question though about what you posted Lars- in Connacht Irish does the t-prefix go on all fem. nouns starting with 's' or just that special group of s nouns? All feminine nouns with s + vowel or s + l,n,r + vowel. (the same without preposition: an tsráid / ar an tsráid.) quote:And in Corca Dhuibhne is it just f nouns that get the eclipsis after Sa, and the rest get lenition after sa is it? Yes. (Dunno if it's a real eclipsis or just a glide-[w] between two vowels.) Standard (and Ulster): san fharraige, Dingle (and Conamara): sa bhfarraige. Lars |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 56 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:22 pm: |
|
Cheers for the tip re. pronunciation of den don and gan Breandán. I'm surprised D sound survived at all in Conamara! |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 57 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:39 pm: |
|
As far as I know Trig that rule re. t-prefix going in front of s nouns applies to prepositions and sing. article across the board (going by MacMurchaidh pg. 58 5.4.2) but just on that select group of s nouns. (Message edited by sineadw on September 28, 2009) |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3205 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:02 pm: |
|
As Trigger said, in Ulster, ts- in all cases after prep.+an+, except of course those who never have "t-" (like sp, sm, st, sc...) ar an tsneachta sa tsaol ag an tsluaigh ar an tsráid ... Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
|
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:54 pm: |
|
Yep I was thinking it wasn't just for Sa. |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 140 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:12 pm: |
|
Sinéad, Perhaps my original statement was too hasty. The source I used seems to be making an overly broad statement. They say (Speaking Irish, pg. 50): "In standard Irish nouns following den, don, and sa are lenited rather than eclipsed, for example, an chuid eile den bhliain, seirbhís don phobal, san bhaile. Connacht and Munster Irish don’t follow these rules, however, as is obvious from these examples from the interviews: an-chóngarach don mbaile, cuide den gclainn, and sa ngeimhread." Looking over the text of the speakers, though, seems to only prove this statement with the Munster speakers and not the Connacht speakers. On the other hand there is this text from Modern Irish (Ó Siadhail), pg. 127: "In broad terms it can be said that there is lenition in Donegal and that in Conamara and Munster there is eclipsis. However, this statement must be qualified. Firstly, in Donegal lenition seems to be employed consistently. In Conamara the rule is generally eclipsis; however, eclipsis is blocked before d and t. Following the two prepositions do ‘to’ /gə/ and de ‘of, off’ /gə/ lenition is the rule …" Still in other places it says that d and t will also be eclipsed! I hope this helps, though. Perhaps Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail has some clear guidelines for Conamara that one could follow. I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|
Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 428 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:48 pm: |
|
quote:Still in other places it says that d and t will also be eclipsed! In Munster. Lars |
|
Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 63 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 12:56 pm: |
|
I have got immense help from people on this thread on this, before this I had a bit here and a bit there! I'm making out a table for myself sometime soon with it all together just to help my memory. Yep I agree with you about that quote from 'Speaking Irish'- it's a litle bit misleading re. den and don in Conamara which actually get lenition, but thankfully we have all the differences contained within the dialects now, buíochas le Dia! I did look through O'Siadhail and missed that- I have a different issue to you though I think as the pg. numbers don't match up with mine, but thanks for the quote. It's a good summary. |
|
Seánw
Member Username: Seánw
Post Number: 145 Registered: 07-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 01:12 pm: |
|
quote:I have a different issue to you though I think as the pg. numbers don't match up with mine. If this helps: Section 6.2.4(iv). I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.
|
|