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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through September 24, 2009 » IPA and Gaeilge « Previous Next »

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Jimtozier
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Username: Jimtozier

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2009


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm just learning the IPA... and was wondering if these a good online resource for seeing the IPA notation for Irish words?

If not online, is there a good Irish-English dictionary that includes IPA notations?

Jim Tozier
www.jimtozier.com

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 11:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One resource, not specifically Irish, is SIL. They have IPA fonts, and if your computer is not set up, you'll need to do that to see them. A good test is to go to the first Wikipedia page below and see if they appear on your screen in the phonetic transcriptions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipa
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&cat_id=FontDownloadsIPA
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ipa.htm

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3188
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

On Wikipedia you'll find only phonological transcriptions, not phonetic ones.

quote:

If not online, is there a good Irish-English dictionary that includes IPA notations?



My own dictionary (it is Irish-French but you may use it anyway for pronunciation even if you don't know French) has a phonetic transcription for every word it contains. As far as I know it's the only Irish modern dictionary that uses a precise IPA transcription. There are two other pocket dictionaries that use a phonological transcription, but then you need to know how every phoneme is realised (and it isn't fully explained in the dictionary itself).
I can give you a transcription of other words that you wouldn't find in my dictionary too, if you like.

You can buy it there : http://www.coop-breizh.fr/lire-3/livres-3/autres-langues-333/dico-poche-fran-ais -irlandais-2033/zoom-fr.htm and on several other websites.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 256
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 04:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One dictionary that contains pronunciation is the famous Foclóir Póca. But, as Lughaidh says, the transcriptions are phonological rather than phonetic, which basically means they are only approximate. It uses its own, IPA-inspired system that leaves out some details (it doesn't indicate lip rounding, for example) and uses its own symbols in some cases (it has /g'/ instead of [gʲ] and so on).

Mo bhlag sa seanchló Gaelach:
www.cainteoir.com

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3191
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 10:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

which basically means they are only approximate.



And artificial and sometimes wrong... Anyway :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 110
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh,
The first rule developed by an Baoilleach was:

Níl aon riail fuaime le fáil inti nach riail bheo i gcanúint éigin de chuid na Gaeilge í.

I know you say that he formulates situations which may not coincide with any particular dialect (so a cross dialectical approach), but do you have one that is wrong? I know your opinion of the Foclóir Poca, but this is a curious statement to me.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3192
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 03:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tha statement that all "oi" are pronounced /o/ and that all "io" are pronounced /i/ is a curious statement to me...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 306
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 06:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tha statement that all "oi" are pronounced /o/ and that all "io" are pronounced /i/ is a curious statement to me...

I have a curious question regarding that: Is there any other rule to those than knowing them by heart? Or do the surrounding characters give hints?

Tine, siúil liom!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3196
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 06:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as I know you have to learn them by heart. There are kinda rules but there are exceptions and sometimes you can use 2 pronunciations for one word...
Well, English is full of things like that too (much more than Irish), and people manage to learn it anyway...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 307
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 05:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, even Finnish, which would seem to be one of the most straightforwardly spelled/pronounced languages, there are exceptions, with rough rules and their exceptions. Some of which I never came to think about very deeply, before I started learning Irish.

Tine, siúil liom!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member
Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 752
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 01:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhinn, I find that the rule that io is /i/ before dentals (i.e. /d/, /t/, /l/, /r/, /s/--the same list of sounds that don't mutate after the article), /u/ before velars (i.e. /g/, /k/), and /o/ elsewhere works pretty well, at least for Munster.

oi is more problematic. There seems to be little to predict when it represents /o/ and when it is /i/ or /e/.

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Róman_anonymous (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A Fhinn, I find that the rule that io is /i/ before dentals (i.e. /d/, /t/, /l/, /r/, /s/--the same list of sounds that don't mutate after the article), /u/ before velars (i.e. /g/, /k/), and /o/ elsewhere works pretty well, at least for Munster.



That cannot be accurate. Think of words like "giolla", "lionn", "fiolar" where [u] is pronounced



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